Argh! Frickin' old people!

Discussion in 'Hangar Talk' started by flyingcheesehead, Jul 7, 2008.

  1. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    That is, old drivers. Old people who still know how to drive, including Spike's 101-year-old grandmother-in-law are OK with me.

    But, I just got my car back after another accident a week ago, and tonight when I was driving to grab some late food, I got hit AGAIN. I was traveling east through a green light in the left lane of a 4-lane road. A guy facing north at the intersection decided to make a right on red (legal) across both lanes (not legal) right in front of me.

    Since it had just started raining a few minutes earlier the road was at its slipperiest, and I couldn't prevent contact entirely, so I went up onto the median, busting my left steer tire. My mad driving skills made minimal damage though - Just a small dent above my right steer tire, and we swapped paint gently enough that it'll wipe off.

    So the guy says "I think we should call the cops." I concurred. So he dialed 911 on his cell phone, and he said it wouldn't connect. He had to try again to get that right - Then, he didn't know where we were, he had to ask me what road we were on and what the crossing street was (that he has just turned off of). Looking at the accident report: Date of Birth, 7-28-1924. So, he turns 84 in a couple weeks. Yet, he seemed to think he was capable of driving late at night in a rainstorm.

    This is the second time someone in that age range has hit me. The first time, I damn near got killed. When is someone going to do something about old people who can't drive? :mad:

    I think that our society has gotten too dependent on driving - The houses aren't near the stores, etc. - So people that shouldn't be driving have no choice but to continue.

    At least he got a ticket:

    And now I get to deal with another one. :(
     
  2. HPNFlyGirl

    HPNFlyGirl En-Route

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    Wow Kent. Sorry to hear about your car....AGAIN!!!!
     
  3. Bob Noel

    Bob Noel Touchdown! Greaser!

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    >When is someone going to do something about old people who can't drive?

    About the same time they do something about young people who can't drive
    and about the same time they do something about ALL those drivers who
    are a danger to those of us on motorcycles.
     
  4. silver-eagle

    silver-eagle En-Route

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    With the aging of our population, senior housing is becoming a booming business. The smarter ones will move there and self limit their driving.
    And don't be too harsh. You'll be there soon enough.
     
  5. Ted

    Ted The pilot formerly known as Twin Engine Ted

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    I've long said that old people on the road are a hazard to the rest of us. My grandmother was terrible, but her doctor (who never got in a car with her) said that she was still good to drive, so she insisted she was fine.

    I think most of these old people who have become dangerous started off bad in the first place. My grandmother was a bad driver (supposedly) even in her prime. My mom I know has never been a good driver, and it's just getting worse with age.

    People have this view that driving is a right, not a privilege, and as such everyone is "entitled" to their cars. This attitude needs to change, but I don't see it happening. In the mean time, Kent, just be glad that you have a Volvo. Cars are safe for a reason.
     
  6. ScottM

    ScottM Taxi to Parking

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    Without any real public transportation to deal with, and a feeling of a right to drive I do not see this getting fixed anytime soon. Sorry to hear of your recent accident. BTW my step dad turns 84 today and I am very happy he is no longer driving. I will head to Florida at the end of the month and drive his car back up here to Chicago.
     
  7. rottydaddy

    rottydaddy En-Route

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    I don't know if they're more of a hazard more of the time than your average younger lousy driver- they're less likely to be drunk or aggressive behind the wheel, for sure- but it is scary to think of how bewildered and absent-minded they can be!! :eek:
    I've had numerous close calls with older drivers who were either too cautious (slow and hesitant) or just completely oblivious.

    And some of these folks could use a booster cushion- I'll never forget the first time I was in Orlando- I was about to cross the street when a Cadillac came roaring around the corner without signaling. All I could see of the driver above the dash was a pair of wizened hands clutching the wheel... :D
     
  8. EdFred

    EdFred Taxi to Parking

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    We need BDRs for people in cars.
     
  9. Brian Austin

    Brian Austin En-Route

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    Amen.

    They're passing more stringent driving laws for young folks here in AZ but letting the Bluehairs run around without renewing or testing. Heck, my own drivers license doesn't expire until 2033! I'll be 65 by then but sheesh. That's a LONG time.
     
  10. gkainz

    gkainz Final Approach

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    at least old people are usually not putting on makeup, talking on the cell phone, changing up the playlist on the iPod and talking with both hands while driving 80 mph in a 55 and following 8" off my bumper ... usually ...

    sorry about your car, tho - especially after just getting it back from the last encounter. :(
     
  11. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    I think you have bad carma, and attract accidents. But by the time you reach his age I hope you are still able to get in and out of a car by yourself.
     
  12. ScottM

    ScottM Taxi to Parking

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    I am thinking that in about 30 years we will see Kent starting post about 'firckin' young people' and how they drive too fast. ;)
     
  13. mikea

    mikea Touchdown! Greaser! Gone West

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    Illinios (I think) requires drivers over 65 to have a driving test at every every license renewal, and I think the DL is issued for a shorter period. I have a vague recall that it's still based on your dirving record, so if you have no tickets or accidents, you get a slight bye. It's not like people who almost never drive are going to get tickets or have accidents.

    We're much better off with my younger neighbors who drive the safe, safe, safe, monolithics while eating a burger, yelling at the kids, and holding a cellphone to their ear. :no:
     
  14. CJones

    CJones Final Approach

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    I have a feeling it won't be the Fed/State regulations that eventually prevent 'hazardous' drivers from driving - it will be insurance. In theory, the age categories that are at most risk for claims should have their premiums adjusted to compensate for the increased risk, right? Of course, once that happens, they'll simply start driving without insurance which means next time Kent gets hit, he'll be s.o.l.

    Hmm... I guess we're just screwed.
     
  15. ScottM

    ScottM Taxi to Parking

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    I don't have the data at my fingertips, but I have always heard that senior drivers are the least likely to get into an accident. What I don't know if that is per mile driven or what.
     
  16. CJones

    CJones Final Approach

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    That could be true if they compare it to the total number of ALL drivers. I wonder if it is compared to the total number of ELDERLY drivers, if they are at a higher risk? Also, I wonder if the dollar amounts are the same? It seems that if anyone ever drives through the wall of K-Mart, it's usually the little old lady that just bought her $3 worth of coloring books for her grandkids.
     
  17. Lawreston

    Lawreston En-Route

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    I was in Massachusetts on July 03 to bring back a pickup load of stuff to store for my cousin until her big retirement house gets finished at Highland Green( http://www.highlandgreenmaine.com/ big development near my former Topsham house).

    On Interstate 495 South everyone was doing about 70mph. I was in the left lane and following a Chevrolet Express van driven by a guy with his left arm out his window. Directly to his right was a large box truck and all lanes were full.

    The van driver's left arm disappeared, only to reappear when he tossed something out his window, the something hitting my windshield. Aha! A small chip and then a crack from left to right, about 3" up from the bottom. #%$@*&%*$%#**)^$%!
    I couldn't get his attention because of the jammed lanes; but I grabbed a newspaper off my dashboard and wrote down the time, location of the Exit sign in view, description of the truck with the ladder on the top, and the New Hampshire license plate. Then I grabbed my digital camera and, with one hand, got two shots of the subject truck, along with whatever the next Exit sign at that moment. He'll be surprised when his insurance company calls him about replacing my windshield.

    HR (on way to my own insurance agency in a few minutes)
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2008
  18. Ted

    Ted The pilot formerly known as Twin Engine Ted

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    This reminds me of something I saw a few years ago. My ex and I (while we were still dating) were walking out of a store back towards her car. I remember hearing a car starting, and then the engine roaring. A few seconds later, squealing tires followed shortly by a loud crash.

    An old woman started her car with her foot on the wrong pedal, and then put it in reverse. Car flew backwards (with the wheel turned) and the car came around and smashed into another parked car. The woman had no idea what had happened, and the owners of the other car were not happy with her, understandably.

    My mom might be considered less likely to have an accident than me by an insurance company seeing as I'll end up driving something in the 30-50,000 miles per year range while she'll drive about 100 miles per year, but I certainly won't let her touch any of my cars.
     
  19. AdamZ

    AdamZ Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Kent I hear your frustration. Some senior drivers, the ones that drive 30 in a 55 can drive you nuts but so can the younger speed demons out there. I have to say that while I may get frustrated at someone who dosen't know where they are ie, stopping at every mailbox or intersection to see if thats the place they need to turn and then drives 20 mph below the limit so they don't miss the turn I am much much more concerned with A-H drivers of any age who feel the road was paved there for them, the ones that cut you off, speed down the shoulder. Weave in and out of traffic at speeds way over the limit.

    For some reason society tolerates the jerk in the concert T-Shirt in a souped up Accord jabbeing away on his cell phone or the Italian suit in the BMW doing the same and both driving like they are in a video game over the guy in the sweater vest or woman with blue hair driving way to slow.
     
  20. mikea

    mikea Touchdown! Greaser! Gone West

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    Close. It is required by law that the kid be wearing a baseball cap, preferably backwards, like the kid in the new GTO with 3 kid passengers that was determined he was going to smoke my Mustang off the light. He did. The difference, son, is the Mustang is nearly 12 years old and has never been wrecked while your GTO won't live that long before you wrap it and your friends around a tree.
     
  21. KennyFlys

    KennyFlys Guest

    Unfortunately, political correctness rules and the legislatures won't act on more frequent requirements for the elderly. When Georgia went to ten-year license periods, they limited it to those under 65. The AARP and other groups threw a fit. I can't imagine what they did when it became a requirement to test eyes at renewal.

    I don't recall ever seeing such a fight on older pilots and grounding requirements.
     
  22. silver-eagle

    silver-eagle En-Route

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    And to solve that problem, the state will make it mandatory that ALL drivers get tested. The bureaucracy will love it. The revenues will be up. More Massachusetts State Police will find jobs doing roadtests (the registry police were assimilated by the State Police). It'll be like the old days when the best way to get a job there was to "know" someone.
    But fair is fair.
     
  23. qbynewbie

    qbynewbie Pre-takeoff checklist

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    My mom is 87 and she still drives. She won't drive at night because her night vision isn't great. She's very careful, drives only around town (never on the highway anymore), drives the speed limit and is generally an excellent driver.

    Her sister is 92. She had a quadruple bypass a few years ago but seems fine now. She's also an excellent driver. I'd ride with either one of them at any time.

    Dad is 92, also, but stopped driving a couple of years ago. He was definitely getting unsafe, recognized it and stopped on his own.

    If someone forced Mom or my aunt to stop driving, it would definitely change their life overnight. Mom and Dad live in their own home, do most of their own shopping, cooking, cleaning, etc. My aunt lives in assisted living but has her own apartment and does most of her cooking and cleaning, too. Not being able to get around would be devastating to them.

    I think it's dangerous drawing broad generalizations about any large group of people rather than considering them as individuals with individual needs.

    Ironically, given the thread title, I think the age group most likely to have an accident is the under 21 crowd.
     
  24. KennyFlys

    KennyFlys Guest

    Brian, while there are exceptions there also reasonable expectations one will slow down as they are older. Heck, I see myself not the same as I was twenty years ago. Life's changes will bring us decline in our mobility and if we don't learn to recognize or refuse to recognize those changes, who will? Does it continue until one reaches the circumstances Nick encountered? Unfortunately, it happens more often than we hear about. The only way to intervene is to increase requirements of aging drivers no differently than medical certificates are more restricted even at age forty and it must be by statute.
     
  25. qbynewbie

    qbynewbie Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Ken,

    I understand and sympathize. But if our society is going to start restricting the ability of well but aged drivers, we are going to also need to increase the support structures that those older people depend on.

    We do not do well with things like providing good public transportation in many areas, providing small local markets within walking distance, having local medical care, etc., etc. My parents are lucky that their children are all living locally but many people find that they've gotten older and all their family is living hundreds or thousands of miles away.

    Simply telling someone that they can no longer drive without providing a solution -- actually a whole basket of solutions -- to the day-to-day needs of older people is tantamount to shutting their lives down.
     
  26. KennyFlys

    KennyFlys Guest

    I'm not suggesting automatic restrictions. But, I do think more frequent check-ups would be reasonable. If I go in for a new medical certificate and some ailment is discovered, they may not deny me entirely but they will reduce my ability to a special issuance requring a more frequent physical or some aspect of check related to the ailment. I don't think that's unreasonable.

    Likewise, why not have someone over a given age to begin more frequent checks? I don't think making it sudden at 65 is ideal but perhaps a gradual increasing frequency of checks would be appropriate as one increases with age. It's for the safety of the driver just as much as those they are around.
     
  27. qbynewbie

    qbynewbie Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I'm not really disagreeing with you but I think it's a difficult thing to evaluate and implement, because I think the problem is larger than "should we take this person's license away today?". The FAA medical process is pretty restrictive and complicated and labor intensive. Can you imagine trying to replicate it on any kind of fair basis at all for tens of millions of older people? We'd end up instead with some sort of blanket rules that would be harmful to many older people because we don't provide the kind of infrastructure that an older person can fall back on for basic necessities if you take away their right to drive.

    Taking away the right to drive in our car-based society without providing readily accessible alternative transportation is cruel; I'd rather have the current situation even though some older people do get into accidents. I think young people get into accidents at a considerably higher rate than older people. If that's true, should we simply not allow people to drive until they are 21?
     
  28. Everskyward

    Everskyward Experimenter

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    I agree with you. If we can't evaluate people as individuals we should not put blanket restrictions on groups of them just because it might be a little less safe. Seems like I made a similar argument over in the spin zone about a completely different subject. Let folks determine for themselves when they are ready to quit.
     
  29. gprellwitz

    gprellwitz Touchdown! Greaser!

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    But we DO put blanket restrictions on people just because of their age, without regard to individual qualifications! Most (all?) states have a MINIMUM age at which you can obtain a driver's license. Unfortunately, individuals are sometimes not the best ones to make the determination about when they are safe to drive (or perform other demanding tasks). If that weren't true, passing the "drivers license medical" for the sport pilot wouldn't have been such a big deal. ALL flying would be based on self certification.

    I agree that having individualized testing of mental and physical qualifications is a good idea, and that it should probably come with more frequency as one gets older. Perhaps have a sliding scale of privileges, such as able to drive only during the day, or only in fair weather (a VFR driver's license?). Remember, though, that contrary to qbynewbie's assertion, there is no "right to drive," though I readily concede that society has made it very difficult in many (most?) situations to live a "normal" life without having the ability to drive legally.

    Adding much better public transportation is certainly one part of the solution; not only to this but to the cost of fuel and the ever-increasing traffic congestion.
     
  30. Bob Noel

    Bob Noel Touchdown! Greaser!

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    > Adding much better public transportation is certainly one part of the solution;
    > not only to this but to the cost of fuel and the ever-increasing traffic congestion.

    Let's not forget that one-size-fits all doesn't work very well. Better public
    transportation might be helpful (and not completely unaffordable) in cities like
    Boston or LA or NY, but in western MA or northern CA or upstate NY public
    transportation would be a bit harder to implement. How would a state
    develop and implement restrictions on the driving privelege that could be
    applied to vastly diverse areas of even small states like Massachusetts?
     
  31. steingar

    steingar Taxi to Parking

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    My mum is 80, and can't see the broad side of a barn. She lives all alone in a stupid house hours away from any family. Do I wish she would stop driving? Dammn straight. She had a vision test and passed it not that long ago! Do I wish she'd move out of the stupid house to a retirement home? Dammn straight! How do you force your mother to do anything? She has two PhD's and a pharmacist telling her to do this stuff, and she ain't listening. Heck, she even has the money to move into one of the homes. I'd take her stuff there personally, hell I'd move in. The one my mother-in-law lived in was really nice; it looked more like a hotel than an old-folks home. But my mum still won't budge. Yeah, I don't much like the AK's on the road, but what are we really going to do about it?
     
  32. mikea

    mikea Touchdown! Greaser! Gone West

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    You ain't seen nothing yet.

    The bulge in the snake is moving. Baby Boomers are getting older. The tail end is now in their 50s. They're hitting retirement age on the other end. Imagine around 2015-2025 when they all retire.

    They'll all be free to be driving all day.

    The leading edge will be in thier 80s.

    AND as always, there are so many that they'll be a voting block and a demographic force to be reckoned with.

    You kids get to pay the enormous FICA taxes to fund the SS checks, although there will have to be near bankruptcy of FICA by then.

    Be very afraid.

    As for me? I figure I'll work until I flat line.
     
  33. Bob Bement

    Bob Bement Pattern Altitude

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    I about got hit by a YOUNG person. She was in the left lane of a two lanes in the same direction. I was pulling out of a store driveway. I wanted to go the same way she was going and the inside or closest to me lane was open. As I started to pullout she made a lane change without a signal. She had her Cell phone in her left hand and the steering wheel in the right hand. That didn't leave a hand to work the turn signal. This OLD man was ticked off and said a few choice words to this driver. I didn't have a wreck but, I could have if I hadn't stopped. Bob
     
  34. alaskaflyer

    alaskaflyer Final Approach

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    It's a tough issue. I agree that it is a quality of life issue for seniors. On the other hand it is a very real safety issue. In the, oh, half dozen motorcycle fatalities that I have worked over the years involving someone pulling out in front of the motorcycle, all but one I believe involved the other driver being a senior citizen (the one exception - interestingly enough - was K.T. Oslin.)

    I think any move towards mandatory age criteria should involve objective testing of vision and driving skills, and not a hard age cutoff.
     
  35. qbynewbie

    qbynewbie Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I like your avatar: it has Dunkin Donuts colors!

    Your point is good and valid and brings up another: motorcyclists. There are lots of people who ride motorcycles up here in upstate NY and many of them seem to ride really unsafely.

    It's very common for motorcyclists to ride down the white line between two lanes of traffic, weave in and out of traffic lanes and generally drive in a way that causes other drivers to have to react to them. One could envision a situation where an older driver just wasn't able to react fast enough.

    I don't ride myself but have often thought about it. I've ridden as a passenger before and enjoyed it. But if we're going to start testing older drivers for ability or safety, we ought to do the same thing for motorcyclists. The last I checked (last summer), riding a motorcycle was a lot more dangerous than flying a small, private plane.

    Certainly some of the accidents that involve motorcyclists will be the fault of the automobile drivers. But I have to wonder what percent, based solely on the behavior that I see on our streets here.
     
  36. KennyFlys

    KennyFlys Guest

    That's all I was getting at. It's the eye sight followed by ability to react to a given situation that gives rise to concern. They would be hard pressed to make any determination of mental skills unless it blatantly affected normal driving habits.
     
  37. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The problem is, the way this country is set up now makes it exceedingly difficult to quit, and obviously there are a large number of people who should have quit already but haven't.

    I think we *should* evaluate people as individuals. There are obviously numerous examples of good drivers. I'd have happily ridden with my grandmother right up until she died at 84. The problem is that once you pass the test, you're pretty much good for life - And there's no medical re-certification needed either like there is with flying.
     
  38. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    You may be on to something there, Ted.

    Sad part is, as the cars get better, the driving gets worse. Alan Klapmeier had an interesting perspective on that on Pilotcast 51 (show notes - audio)
     
  39. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Bah. The guy that almost killed me had no insurance - And he's damn lucky it happened in WI where insurance is not required, because he was from IN where insurance is required. :mad: Homeowners insurance ended up paying for my personal losses (like my laptop) but the company was even more :mad: than me - It cost them $36,000 to repair the truck.
     
  40. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Bah! Frickin' middle aged people. :p ;) :rofl: