Are clearances issued in error void?

[Pi1otguy]

If you reject a clearance because you're unable, is it still valid once you're able to comply?

I was at SBA taxing to runway 15L via B. Runways 25, 15R, &15L are active. I'm cleared to hold short 25 @ B behind a Beech, no problem. Until this..

Ground: Cessna 123, cross runway 25 @ B.
Me: There's an aircraft ahead, 123.

It takes a few moments then ground clears the Beech to cross. It's been a while and another jet should be doing something on 25 shortly so I decide hold short. A few seconds later the hold lights turn on followed by being told to hold.

Obviously I was cleared in error. But once the plane ahead moved, was my clearance to cross still valid?

 

[RussR]

There is no way, given an ambiguous runway crossing instruction, that I would even begin to move without clarifying first.

 

[EdFred]

Unless I heard an instruction for that Beech to cross IMMEDIATELY before my clearance, I would have said, "Unable, Beech XXX is blocking my way."

Was at Kalamazoo last month or so, and a student went off of 17. So they shut the whole place down. A bunch of us are stacked up waiting to cross 9/27 a few more holding short of 5/23 a few more holding short of 17/35. They finally opened up 23 and cleared the 3-4 planes on C/C2, then issued 3 back to back clearances for the guys waiting to cross 17. Rapid fire clearances for us waiting to cross 9/27. Then did it for us again crossing 5/32 and again when crossing 17/35.

Went something like this (with read backs between):
111AB cleared for takeoff 23
111CD line up and wait 23
222EF cross 17
222GH cross 17
222JK cross 17 (bet you thought I'd use India there didn't you?)
(111AB takes off 23)
333LM cross 23
333NP cross 23
333QR cross 23
111CD cleared for takeoff 23
444ST cross 9
444UV cross 9
444WX cross 9 (<--this was me)

Then the 222 group was cleared for t/o and 333 moved across 17 and my group got to cross 23

They just kept moving us in chunks. By the time I got to cross 17 there was a 555 and a 666 group waiting to cross runways. Took a while for that mess to get sorted out. I think there was actually about 6-8 planes in that 222 group (didn't move all of them across 17 at once, I remember them going 3 at a time)

 

[PaulS]

I don't know if the clearance is still valid or not, but I wouldn't move until I hear from ground again. I would have asked after the Beech started moving if I was still cleared to cross the runway. Sounds like you did the right thing though by holding.

 

[flyingron]

Controller needs to be reeducated. The FAA ICAO-ized out "position and hold" years ago.

My favorite amusement was that the airport diagrams for IAD (this was back before the western N/S runway was added) warned you to read back all runway crossing instructions.

The only problem with that is that you'd be taxiing out in the weeds somewhere if you "crossed" a runway. All IAD's runways had taxiways only on one side (this changed with the addition of the new runway).

Of course, my favorite (and this was the day after an F-16 ran off the end of the runway) was the controller at Oshkosh:

OSH: 27K, I want you to continue off the end of the runway...(pause)... on purpose. I swear, there's a taxiway there.

 

[Clip4]

Read back of the taxi clearance is required when instructed to cross hold lines.

I would replied “N123AB unable, another aircraft holding Bravo at runway 25”. You have refused the clearance, advised the controller of the conflict and the controller needs to issue a new clearance before further movement.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Read back of the taxi clearance is required when instructed to cross hold lines.

I would replied “N123AB unable, another aircraft holding Bravo at runway 25”. You have refused the clearance, advised the controller of the conflict and the controller needs to issue a new clearance before further movement.

Agree completely,

The only one with a current crossing clearance is the Beech. There is no way I would assume there's no potential traffic conflict after the Beech crosses.

I might have replied slightly differently:
"N123AB unable, another aircraft holding Bravo at runway 25. N123AB continuing to hold short."

 

[EdFred]

Controller needs to be reeducated. The FAA ICAO-ized out "position and hold" years ago.

My favorite amusement was that the airport diagrams for IAD (this was back before the western N/S runway was added) warned you to read back all runway crossing instructions.

The only problem with that is that you'd be taxiing out in the weeds somewhere if you "crossed" a runway. All IAD's runways had taxiways only on one side (this changed with the addition of the new runway).

Of course, my favorite (and this was the day after an F-16 ran off the end of the runway) was the controller at Oshkosh:

OSH: 27K, I want you to continue off the end of the runway...(pause)... on purpose. I swear, there's a taxiway there.

Thank captain pedantic. I mistyped. Controller doesn't need to be re-educated. No one gives a **** whether it's P&H or LUAW when telling an anecdote. Oh wait, at least one person does.

 

[Clip4]

Agree completely,

The only one with a current crossing clearance is the Beech. There is no way I would assume there's no potential traffic conflict after the Beech crosses.

I might have replied slightly differently:
"N123AB unable, another aircraft holding Bravo at runway 25. N123AB conduiting to hold short."

Is conduiting the pronunciation with a British accent?

 

[midlifeflyer]

Is conduiting the pronunciation with a British accent?

No, just some guy who can't type to save his life.

 

[Larry in TN]

Even shorter, "[Callsign] is number two" or "[Callsign] is number two at Bravo".

 

[Daleandee]

I was at SBA taxing to runway 15L via B. Runways 25, 15R, &15L are active. I'm cleared to hold short 25 @ B behind a Beech, no problem. Until this..

Ground: Cessna 123, cross runway 25 @ B.
Me: There's an aircraft ahead, 123.

Was at MYR with a friend and cleared for take-off. Problem was the plane ahead of us. Announced holding behind the Piper and they got the message.

I told my friend ... "you have a clearance, just pass him in the grass!"

 

[midwestpa24]

If you reject a clearance because you're unable, is it still valid once you're able to comply?

I was at SBA taxing to runway 15L via B. Runways 25, 15R, &15L are active. I'm cleared to hold short 25 @ B behind a Beech, no problem. Until this..

Ground: Cessna 123, cross runway 25 @ B.
Me: There's an aircraft ahead, 123.

It takes a few moments then ground clears the Beech to cross. It's been a while and another jet should be doing something on 25 shortly so I decide hold short. A few seconds later the hold lights turn on followed by being told to hold.

Obviously I was cleared in error. But once the plane ahead moved, was my clearance to cross still valid?

If in doubt, ask! Why are so many pilots afraid to speak up if they don't understand an ATC direction? They are just humans too, talk to them. Never assume, and never follow a direction that you don't understand or doesn't make sense. Even then, look both ways before crossing!

 

[Palmpilot]

Even shorter, "[Callsign] is number two" or "[Callsign] is number two at Bravo".

That's consistent with what my PPL instructor taught: "If you think the controller has you mixed up with another aircraft, make a position report." That has served me well, starting with my PPL checkride.