Approach question

[skidoo]

Say you are in the clouds on an IFR flight plan. You are cleared for the approach, and so you begin your approach procedure. Say your IAF is about 5000 AGL, and your FAF is about 3500 AGL. Suppose you break out at 4000 AGL, and visibility is now >10sm. Do you just continue the approach or transition to a visual one?

 

[Cpt_Kirk]

Fly the approach for which they cleared you.

Go visual at the DA/MDA.

If the weather is that good, they will most likely get you below the clouds, if possible, and clear you for the visual.

Also, FAF at 3500 AGL?

 

[airheadpenguin]

Here's one FAF is 3100 TDZE is ~ 350
http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1407/06107VA.PDF

Once certain you can maintain VFR to the ground you could always call and cancel IFR and fly a normal straight in. At airports in E and G space you'll be given cancellation instructions like cancel in the air with xxx on yyy.zz or call FSS on the ground. Until you do this nobody else can be issued an approach clearance for that airport so this is important. My usual MO is to cancel in the air since it saves me from getting out the cell phone and calling FSS once on the ground.

At B/C/D space airports they handle this for you.

To answer the question you asked though, if assigned an approach fly that approach until you land or cancel. You were given an ATC instruction on an IFR flight plan and must treat it as such.

 

[Alexb2000]

Say you are in the clouds on an IFR flight plan. You are cleared for the approach, and so you begin your approach procedure. Say your IAF is about 5000 AGL, and your FAF is about 3500 AGL. Suppose you break out at 4000 AGL, and visibility is now >10sm. Do you just continue the approach or transition to a visual one?

If you do break out that high cancel. Other people could be waiting for a clearance.

 

[jordane93]

Approach would probably give you a visual in that situation anyway so no need for an instrument approach.

 

[frfly172]

If you do break out that high cancel. Other people could be waiting for a clearance.

+1 always good when you consider other pilots.

 

[James331]

Let them know the conditions and request 1200 and go straight in for no tower

For tower they'll probably give you the visual.


Unless you want the approach anyway for practice or something.

 

[skidoo]

If you do break out that high cancel. Other people could be waiting for a clearance.

I forgot to add that this would be for an uncontrolled field, and due to terrain, can lose communications below 5000 AGL.

So, I am thinking if I can make communications contact, then canceling would be easy. But, if I can't, then do I need to be as precise on the approach path when I can see the field 10 miles out after breaking out?

 

[skidoo]

Also, FAF at 3500 AGL?

Yes, I forget most of us may not have terrain to deal with. This is for Rnav GPS RWY 36 for 8S1.

 

[airheadpenguin]

My understanding is that they do expect you to fly the approach to the MAP. If its a CTL you would execute the circle within the IFR protected airspace. This also puts you in a position to fly the published missed if something comes up like a cloud drifts over the approach end of the runway.

You may be able to get away with something different in the conditions you described, but the expectation is that you will stay in the protected airspace. Ask yourself what you want your NTSB report to say.

 

[Alexb2000]

I forgot to add that this would be for an uncontrolled field, and due to terrain, can lose communications below 5000 AGL.

So, I am thinking if I can make communications contact, then canceling would be easy. But, if I can't, then do I need to be as precise on the approach path when I can see the field 10 miles out after breaking out?

That pretty much describes the field I spend half the year at. I can't cancel either, so I do it on the ground. If it is night I'll follow the approach path precisely, but include a lot of outside scan, just because I do that at night. If day and conditions like you describe, then I fly it visually. Besides with high terrain airports the winds can shift around, you might need to fly the pattern and come back in the other way, there may be VFR traffic, etc. Mentally I want to be focused on the conditions (windsock, terrain, runway, traffic, etc) vs. looking at the gauges. Put simply I go visual.

 

[ARFlyer]

I had this exact thing happen to me on Saturday.

The cloud deck was 2500' to 3500'. I was direct to the IAF and ATC had me at 3000' in the soup for 20+ miles. When I listened to the ASOS I noticed that the cloud deck was only 500' below me. So I requested the lowest MVA which happened to be 2400'. As soon as I broke out I cancelled and flew a normal landing.

It saved me 20 mins.

 

[peerlesscowboy]

Yes, I forget most of us may not have terrain to deal with. This is for Rnav GPS RWY 36 for 8S1.

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1407/09529R36.PDF
If you were unable to cancel when you broke out you'd be expected to fly the approach altho' at that point I wouldn't think proceeding visually would be much different from the published procedure? Up at the other end of the lake into Glacier Park International under these conditions ATC would expect you to cancel after you broke out to allow them to clear the next one for the approach.

 

[Velocity173]

From the controller's handbook:

NOTE-
1. Clearances authorizing instrument approaches are issued on the basis that, if visual contact with the ground is made before the approach is completed, the entire approach procedure will be followed unless the pilot receives approval for a contact approach, is cleared for a visual approach, or cancels their IFR flight plan.

Now, is the controller really going to know if you've taken over visually outside of the FAF? Most likely not. Realize though, if you do take over visually and not adhere to the IAP as directed above, you could send off MSAW alerts for that segment of the approach. That could be a problem for the pilot trying to explain why they didn't cross the FAF or some other fix at the required altitude.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Now, is the controller really going to know if you've taken over visually outside of the FAF? Most likely not. Realize though, if you do take over visually and not adhere to the IAP as directed above, you could send off MSAW alerts for that segment of the approach. That could be a problem for the pilot trying to explain why they didn't cross the FAF or some other fix at the required altitude.

Probably not caught in the absence of an alert, and unusual radar track, a loss of separation or an incident.

But it does dovetail with 91.123(a) requiring you to fly the clearance you are issued "unless an amended clearance is obtained, an emergency exists, or the deviation is in response to a traffic alert and collision avoidance system resolution advisory."

 

[flyingron]

Let them know the conditions and request 1200 and go straight in for no tower

For tower they'll probably give you the visual.


Unless you want the approach anyway for practice or something.

I'm confused. You can get visual approaches without tower.

I'm also missing the issue with remaining with your (circling) approach clearance. There is NO requirement to descend to the cricling MDA before circling, in fact, quite the contrary, the FAA recommends the standard pattern altitude if conditions permit. I also see how, once you are in visual conditions, straying from the approach ground track makes any operational difference to ATC. At an uncontrolled field, there's not going to be any other IFR within the transition/surface area. About the only issue to remember is that you're only guaranteed an obstacle free area at the MDA within the protected area (which is a bit over a mile around the runway surfaces, depending on the approach category).

 

[Palmpilot]

Probably not caught in the absence of an alert, and unusual radar track, a loss of separation or an incident.

But it does dovetail with 91.123(a) requiring you to fly the clearance you are issued "unless an amended clearance is obtained, an emergency exists, or the deviation is in response to a traffic alert and collision avoidance system resolution advisory."

There's also the section in 91.175 that requires us to stay at or above the MDA until we're in a position that would allow landing with a normal descent rate using normal maneuvers.

 

[poadeleted20]

Do you just continue the approach or transition to a visual one?

You stay on the approach for which you are cleared unless/until you obtain a revised clearance from ATC. Anything else has the potential to compromise separation from other IFR aircraft. Whether you choose to ask for a change to a visual approach is entirely up to you, but you don't depart from the SIAP for which you were cleared until ATC clears you to do that.

 

[poadeleted20]

So, I am thinking if I can make communications contact, then canceling would be easy. But, if I can't, then do I need to be as precise on the approach path when I can see the field 10 miles out after breaking out?

Yes, you do. ATC is counting on you to stay on the course for which you were cleared unless/until they clear you for something else.

 

[Sac Arrow]

I really don't see the point of cancelling IFR on an approach for the purpose of expediting other traffic. It's not like you wouldn't be similarly holding up traffic doing practice approaches in VFR conditions.

 

[Alexb2000]

I really don't see the point of cancelling IFR on an approach for the purpose of expediting other traffic. It's not like you wouldn't be similarly holding up traffic doing practice approaches in VFR conditions.

Ever circle for 20+ minutes, while some guy in a 152 flies an approach through a benign layer, breaks out at 4,000 AGL, and doesn't cancel until he's tied down? Why not be courteous and let the other guy start the approach behind you? Jets and other pay by the hour types really appreciate this.

 

[poadeleted20]

Ever circle for 20+ minutes, while some guy in a 152 flies an approach through a benign layer, breaks out at 4,000 AGL, and doesn't cancel until he's tied down? Why not be courteous and let the other guy start the approach behind you? Jets and other pay by the hour types really appreciate this.

And then there's the guy who cancelled on breaking out at York PA (KTHV) with the ASOS calling 900-2. The FAA Inspector hanging around the FBO busted him for violating 91.155.

Oh, yeah -- did I mention THV has Class E to the surface? That one made AOPA Pilot's Legal Advisor column some years ago, and the charge stuck. So y'all be careful about canceling IFR unless you're sure you're legal to be VFR where you are at the time as well as all the way to landing.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I really don't see the point of cancelling IFR on an approach for the purpose of expediting other traffic. It's not like you wouldn't be similarly holding up traffic doing practice approaches in VFR conditions.

Assuming you are talking about doing those practice approaches with ATC assistance, everywhere I've done that, ATC has given the IFR traffic priority.

There's no reason in the world not to be courteous.

IFR: it's not about you.

 

[ja_user]

If you can remain VFR, cancel IFR... IF there is a chance you can't, then don't.. It is really quite simple...

 

[peerlesscowboy]

And then there's the guy who cancelled on breaking out at York PA (KTHV) with the ASOS calling 900-2. The FAA Inspector hanging around the FBO busted him for violating 91.155.

Oh, yeah -- did I mention THV has Class E to the surface? That one made AOPA Pilot's Legal Advisor column some years ago, and the charge stuck. So y'all be careful about canceling IFR unless you're sure you're legal to be VFR where you are at the time as well as all the way to landing.

No one here's suggesting cancelling early when the field is IFR.

 

[poadeleted20]

No one here's suggesting cancelling early when the field is IFR.

Even when the field is VFR, you still might not be in VMC when you break out on the approach. Be careful about that, remember the 3-152 rule, and know exactly what type of airspace you're in and will fly through all the way to landing.

Example: You're landing at Salisbury MD (KSBY), Class D. They're calling 10 miles vis, 2000 OVC. You're told to descend and maintain 1600, expect the visual. Eight miles out you break out at 2100, see the field, and report it in sight. ATC clears you for the visual approach and switches you to Tower. You hear Piedmont Airlines call ready, and the Tower tells them "Hold short awaiting IFR release". You want to cancel so Piedmont can launch, but you must get down to 1600 (500 below the deck) before you do so in either the D-space around the airport or E-space you're in.

 

[peerlesscowboy]

To inject a little background here; the airport the OP is referring to (Polson, MT) lies at the south end of Flathead lake in the Flathead valley of northwest Montana at an elevation of just under 3000' msl. The valley is surrounded by high mountains, all routes into the valley come with at least 13,000' MEAs and radar's good only down to about 9000'. ATC routinely puts all inbound IFRs on the ILS approach at Glacier Park International airport at the north end of the valley to get them under a high overcast that obscures the mountains but conditions in the valley might well be six or seven thousand foot ceiling with unlimited visibility. In these conditions when you're under the overcast (yes Ron, including legal VFR cloud clearance) you'll be expected to cancel IFR so the next arrival can be cleared for the approach. If you're going into KGPI (class D) you can expect a gentle reminder from the tower in my experience.