Apple is "amazing, incredible, great, easy"

Bob Noel said:
>"Macs were virus prone"? huh? when? what viruses?
> Back in the mid '90s. I didn't keep track of all the viruses. I do know
> that certain public use machines were veritable cesspools of viruses.
> If you read my post, you'll note that I said PCs have more viruses.
> If Macs get popular enough, they will probably get viruses again.

I did read your post, hence my questions. btw - you didn't say PCs have
more viruses. You said that PCs have that problem now. This implies
that viruses were more of a problem on macs than PCs. And this is the
first time I have EVER heard viruses being more of a problem for
macs than windoze.

>What programming tools for the Mac cost an arm and a leg?
> BASIC. PASCAL C, C++. Pretty much all the CodeWarrior stuff

you and I have different definitions of "arm and a leg".

>Macs never tried to think for you - apparently you are confusing
> Apple with microsofts you-will-do-it-this-way approach to the
> user experience.
> Did you actually read my post? I can still open a TIFF or a text file
> from any application in Windows. I'm sure Macs let you do that now.

Yes I read your post.

I have never EVER had a problem opening a text file from any program
on the mac (except those that don't understand text).

I have never EVER had a problem opening a TIFF file from any program
on the mac (except those that don't understand TIFF).

I was startled by your experience with the mac. I still get no end
of amusement when the windoze user doesn't know how to open
a file unless it has the correct .xxx extension.

Clearly we have very different experiences with macs and windoze
Click to expand...

Bob-

Once upon a time, Macs IME did have more virus problems than PCs.

$1000 for a compiler ain't cheap- that's what it cost to get a Mac compiler back then. We wrote software on PCs because we could sign for Turbo C++ for a PC, but not for C++ for a Mac and we didn't want to go two levels up in management to sign the PO for a compiler.

And finally, I did (and do) know about file types.

I think you started using Macs more recently than I started. Back in 1984, a Mac had less memory available to programs than a Timex-Sinclair 1000 (with the 16K memory module) after the operating system was loaded. It was also easier to use for common office applications (word processing, drawing, spreadsheet). It was also expensive. We used Macs generally for ChemDraw which was only available on Macs until the mid 1990's. There were a few other apps for biochem exclusively on Macs for reading Western blots- mostly for the WYSIWYG and ease of working with printers. Macs did have an edge on WYSIWYG back then, but that was less of a priority to us except for these few programs. We weren't artists.

For us, the Mac was a tool for our work. We used PCs or Macs as the task demanded.
 
gprellwitz said:
Okay, to turn this to a more important topic (ME! :)), I need to get a new phone. I'm with Verizon, which has good service, but mediocre phones. My company doesn't support Blackberrys to get email, calendaring, etc. I'm thinking of the HTC Touch Pro 2, which is Window 6.1 based. Anyone know of a better option with Verizon? Or should I just chuck Verizon, move to AT&T, and get an iPhone?
Click to expand...
I have a blackberry storm. Using the blackberry website, I have it tied to my web email. I have not tried to tie it to the corporate email account but I suspect I could.
As to syncing the calendar events and contacts, I use google sync which seems to work well keeping my corporate account and my personal account equal. I have lost contacts on both sides but that was probably my fault.
I like verizon; I just don't like how they inhibit the phones.
PS: I also have a company blackberry too, hence the reluctance to map corporate email to the personal device.
 
[snip]
> $1000 for a compiler ain't cheap- that's what it cost to get a Mac
> compiler back then.

hmmm. Even my Ada compiler for the mac didn't cost $1000 back in the early 90s - maybe my employer had some sort of price break.

> I think you started using Macs more recently than I started.

nope. I had one at work in the late 80s. SE, SE/30, IIcx, 7300,
various laptops

[snip]

> For us, the Mac was a tool for our work. We used PCs or Macs
> as the task demanded.

Which is exactly how it should be. Figure out what you need
to do and get the best tool(s) for the job.
 
Bob Noel said:
[snip]

> I think you started using Macs more recently than I started.

nope. I had one at work in the late 80s. SE, SE/30, IIcx, 7300,
various laptops
Click to expand...

Newb :smile:

I started using them in 1984 (Really!). All joking aside- interesting how experiences with similar machines work out so differently.

I see this with the cell phone conversations too, where people have vastly different experiences.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Newb :smile:

I started using them in 1984 (Really!). All joking aside- interesting how experiences with similar machines work out so differently.

I see this with the cell phone conversations too, where people have vastly different experiences.
Click to expand...


Bah.

Mac Plus (with 20 mb Hard Drive added about 6 months later)

clock.jpg


Though my Bro In law said he saw the Xerox PARC pre-Lisa system when he was at Standford.

Show off.
 
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Uhm -- any chance you can scale that image down Dan?
 
tdager said:
Really? How about knowing what the hell you are talking about before you jump up and down on the Mac-fan wagon.

Here is a clue...or three:

http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/07/iphone_encrypti.html
http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1495164/iphone-encryption-broken
http://www.examiner.com/x-9438-SF-Business-Tech-Examiner~y2009m9d15-Banishing-the-iPhone-from-the-enterprise
http://www.informationweek.com/news/personal_tech/iphone/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=217800170

and finally:
http://www.iphoneinsecurity.com/

I do this for a living, daily I am working knee-deep in keeping my company safe and secure, so do not presume that simply because someone says that something you like is not yet ready for prime-time in the enterprise that is some sort of "I hate Apple" rant.

Hell my wife owns and iPhone! I do have philosophical issues with Apple and the way they do things, but that does not change the fact that for a secure enterprise the iPhone is not yet there.


ADDED: Sorry for being so grumpy....but I get tired of the fanboys in my own company that do nothing be evangelize the product and think that anyone that does not "see the light" just does not get it. In the end I do not care what people use, so long as it meets our basic security requirements which the iPhone does not, at this time. Once it does it will be allowed.
Click to expand...

As you correctly pointed out this does not make the Blackberry "better." It does not even make it "better" for enterprise users. It simply makes it "better" for users who work with uber-security-conscious folks like you(not making a judgement here.) Not everyone who chooses an iPhone for enterprise work is a fool, iPhones are targeted at a certain market segment just as Blackberries are Hence my comment "the only reason to have a Blackberry is if IT hands you one." glug glug glug :D
 
tdager said:
Really? How about knowing what the hell you are talking about before you jump up and down on the Mac-fan wagon.

Here is a clue...or three:

http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/07/iphone_encrypti.html
http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1495164/iphone-encryption-broken
http://www.examiner.com/x-9438-SF-Business-Tech-Examiner~y2009m9d15-Banishing-the-iPhone-from-the-enterprise
http://www.informationweek.com/news/personal_tech/iphone/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=217800170

and finally:
http://www.iphoneinsecurity.com/

I do this for a living, daily I am working knee-deep in keeping my company safe and secure, so do not presume that simply because someone says that something you like is not yet ready for prime-time in the enterprise that is some sort of "I hate Apple" rant.

Hell my wife owns and iPhone! I do have philosophical issues with Apple and the way they do things, but that does not change the fact that for a secure enterprise the iPhone is not yet there.


ADDED: Sorry for being so grumpy....but I get tired of the fanboys in my own company that do nothing be evangelize the product and think that anyone that does not "see the light" just does not get it. In the end I do not care what people use, so long as it meets our basic security requirements which the iPhone does not, at this time. Once it does it will be allowed.
Click to expand...

As you correctly pointed out this does not make the Blackberry "better." It does not even make it "better" for enterprise users. It simply makes it "better" for users who work with uber-security-conscious folks like you(not making a judgement here.) not everyone who chooses an iPhone for enterprise work is a fool, iPhones are targeted at a certain market segment just as Blackberries are Hence my comment "the only reason to have a Blackberry is if IT hands you one." glug glug glug :D
 
tdager said:
Unless one works at Apple...what business relevance does iTunes have?
Click to expand...

It's used to sync contacts, notes, and calendar when using the native Apple tools. It's also used for managing the substantial amount media (presentations, podcasts, etc) that can be carried on the iPhone or on the laptop. That would be the same iPhone that many of my business associates are using to satisfy their mobile access needs. Or maybe as CEO of a billion dollar a year company he feels like having a rented movie on his computer while he's traveling is important to him? Just to name a few...
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Newb :smile:

I started using them in 1984 (Really!). All joking aside- interesting how experiences with similar machines work out so differently.

I see this with the cell phone conversations too, where people have vastly different experiences.
Click to expand...

I tend not be an early adopter. :-)

Besides, the Decmate II's were still working fine and I had my Zilog supermicrocomputer.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
I used the Mac the company bought.
Click to expand...

I used the original Mac, the Mac Plus, and the SE that were available
in the department. But the first one I had on my desk for my dedicated use was the SE/30.
 
tdager said:
Or if you have a corporate security officer (like me) that takes securing data on mobile devices seriously....which is something that Apple does not.
Click to expand...
Agreed. When our police agency went to mobile devices 4 years ago, I wanted anything other than a BB. But the more I dug into things and researched, BB was the only real choice.

BB is not the most flexible, the best browser, or the best mobile computer. But it IS the best secure mobile email communications device, period.
For what we are doing, BB is the best thing out there.

Not for games, not for hooking to a projector, not for creating documents on the fly, not for giving Powerpoint presentations, not for apps. But for the vertical messaging market, nothing comes close.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
In my case...a while back...
  • Apple was running ads showing a Mac was faster than a PC. We got a new Mac in the lab and noticed our favorite programs that existed on both platforms ran substantially faster on a PC. Enough so that when we imported certain databases, we did it on a PC and brought the files into the Mac.
  • Macs tried to think for you, and did it poorly. If a TIFF image came from a different program than the program that was on your Mac, you couldn't open it unless you knew how to fiddle with the resource fork. No such problem on a PC then, Windoze has been getting worse about this for awhile.
  • Apparently, the coders for Macs didn't know about malloc(). If your file exceeded the memory allotted for the program, the program would just stop. Couldn't save or anything. I don't know how many times I had to raise the memory allocation on a program manually to get my work done.
  • Macs were virus prone. Now PCs have this issue.
  • Programming tool for a Mac cost an arm and a leg due to Apple's licensing arrangement for their code to work with the compilers. PC programming tools are still free (VB express, VC express, SQL Server Express, etc).
As for now? Can't say. PCs seem to be cheaper than Macs and seem to generally work as well for what I need to do now. I haven't had a need to buy a computer in some time.
Click to expand...

Wow. "A while back," indeed - Those problems were fixed in the late 80's/early 90's.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Wow. "A while back," indeed - Those problems were fixed in the late 80's/early 90's.
Click to expand...

Actually...a little later than that. I know OS 6 & 7 had these problems and were released in the early 90's. I remember meeting an Apple representative at an American Chemical Society meeting and he indicated the manual allocation of memory for apps would go away in OS 7.6

I was one of the few "lab rats" with a Mac since I managed some data that management needed to see. "Lab rats" got whatever PC came with the HPLC; management got Macs.:dunno:
 
I was on a Mac SE as my first Apple computer. Funny what we thought of back then as a portable. I had the carrying case for it and it went back and forth from the office with me nearly every day. That was my 2nd start up that we grew to over 300 people before we sold the business to AT&T in 1988 and their IT people came in with PCs. A few of us where considered key people and got to keep our Macs and even get new ones when they came along but the rest of the company got switched out.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Actually...a little later than that. I know OS 6 & 7 had these problems and were released in the early 90's. I remember meeting an Apple representative at an American Chemical Society meeting and he indicated the manual allocation of memory for apps would go away in OS 7.6
Click to expand...

Hmmm. Well, let's go through the list then...

Cap'n Jack said:
[*]Apple was running ads showing a Mac was faster than a PC. We got a new Mac in the lab and noticed our favorite programs that existed on both platforms ran substantially faster on a PC. Enough so that when we imported certain databases, we did it on a PC and brought the files into the Mac.
Click to expand...

It really depended on when, as they flip-flopped several times.

[*]Macs tried to think for you, and did it poorly. If a TIFF image came from a different program than the program that was on your Mac, you couldn't open it unless you knew how to fiddle with the resource fork. No such problem on a PC then, Windoze has been getting worse about this for awhile.
Click to expand...

Ever since System 7, if you wanted to open a file in a different program you could drag and drop the file onto that program's icon. There was a menu-driven way to do it too, but I can't remember exactly where that was.

[*]Apparently, the coders for Macs didn't know about malloc(). If your file exceeded the memory allotted for the program, the program would just stop. Couldn't save or anything. I don't know how many times I had to raise the memory allocation on a program manually to get my work done.
Click to expand...

Ah, the bad old days. Dunno when exactly this disappeared, thankfully OS X has more sophisticated underpinnings!

[*]Macs were virus prone. Now PCs have this issue.
Click to expand...

Wow. VERY briefly. I can tell you that as early as 1992 when I was working at a computer store we sold CD-ROM's for Norton Antivirus that said on the packaging "Detects and repairs over 50,000 PC viruses and all 28 Mac viruses." Disinfectant was a popular, free anti-virus program for the Mac then as well.

I can tell you that most Mac viruses were relatively harmless. I used to play with them for fun, and never lost any data.

Don't Panic. ;) :D

[*]Programming tool for a Mac cost an arm and a leg due to Apple's licensing arrangement for their code to work with the compilers. PC programming tools are still free (VB express, VC express, SQL Server Express, etc).
Click to expand...

There have always been affordable tools - WAY back in the day MacPascal was under $100. Later, when the PowerPC became the platform of choice (1994), everyone started using CodeWarrior which cost $400 - But Apple had free dev tools available as well. They just weren't nearly as good as CodeWarrior - But they *were* there.

Now, of course, we have XCode which is an excellent suite of tools, and it's free.
 
Kent- whatever.

I gave my reasons for prefering PCs. These were my experiences, yours were different. I didn't work in IT; those computers were (and still are) a simply tool to get our work done. I haven't (yet) experienced the problems that many people had running Windows. That doesn't make their experience any less real or annoying to them.

Like I said, I would consider a Mac now, if I were looking for a computer. I hope I won't be looking for a while.

I'd consider a Mac based on the experience of people like Jesse who consider the machine to be a tool and will explain the shortcomings of a machine or operating system, for my particular needs, without blindly defending it.
 
This is fun to watch......:loco:

Now let's move it into a low wing vs high wing arguement and I bet we can get another 5 pages out of it. :rofl:

(I would have said LOP vs ROP, but now that Conti & Lycoming have both admitted they have been wrong all along.....anyone on the ROP side of the fence is left standing alone, out in the cold)
 
Has Mac finally broke into CNC programming and the structural design arena?
 
sheldon957 said:
This is fun to watch......:loco:

Now let's move it into a low wing vs high wing arguement and I bet we can get another 5 pages out of it. :rofl:

(I would have said LOP vs ROP, but now that Conti & Lycoming have both admitted they have been wrong all along.....anyone on the ROP side of the fence is left standing alone, out in the cold)
Click to expand...

Yeah- stick a fork in it...it's done.

I just got a bit PO'd when people tell me my experience with a product is wrong or doesn't count.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Yeah- stick a fork in it...it's done.

I just got a bit PO'd when people tell me my experience with a product is wrong or doesn't count.
Click to expand...

It's not your experience that is wrong, or doesn't count....it's you! :rofl:
 
sheldon957 said:
(I would have said LOP vs ROP, but now that Conti & Lycoming have both admitted they have been wrong all along.....anyone on the ROP side of the fence is left standing alone, out in the cold)
Click to expand...
So, do I get a new POH for the T182T that removes the bolded note "Lean of Peak (LOP) operations are not authorized?" (Of course, since there's only a single CHT/TIT gauge, I don't have enough instrumentation in any case.)
 
tdager said:
Unless one works at Apple...what business relevance does iTunes have?
Click to expand...

Perhaps there is value to be found in consolidation. For instance, Jesse works for my company. There is no "business reason" for him to have either iTunes or X-plane installed on his company computer. That said, as a server administrator on call 24 hours a day, there is value to me in him carrying his laptop with him. The more it's with him the higher the chance that we'll have a positive outcome in a server outage scenario. So, let's say Jesse goes on vacation for a week. Do I want him leaving his work laptop behind so that he can take his personal laptop with him...the one that has his iTunes on it and all of his digital pictures? Or would I rather absorb the cost of maintaining iTunes on his laptop and know that even if he's on vacation he'll have his work laptop with him?

The world just isn't black and white enough to say that there is no value to be gained in working to allow some of these things.

PittsDriver said:
It's used to sync contacts, notes, and calendar when using the native Apple tools. It's also used for managing the substantial amount media (presentations, podcasts, etc) that can be carried on the iPhone or on the laptop. That would be the same iPhone that many of my business associates are using to satisfy their mobile access needs. Or maybe as CEO of a billion dollar a year company he feels like having a rented movie on his computer while he's traveling is important to him? Just to name a few...
Click to expand...

+1 That is exactly correct.

There is no reason for a low level IT grunt to be telling a CEO what he can or can't do. Those are the types of organizations that give IT a bad name. The bottom line is that, as the CEO he'll just reinstall it. There are no consequences for him in doing so....other than having it removed again. The IT manager should recognize that and want to secure it properly rather than having it installed and maintained in a rogue state by the CEO. He should be able to explain to the CEO why doing so is critical to their business continuity (if he can't, then he should focus on bigger things). The IT manager should be giving a cost to the CEO of what it will take to allow those types of applications to be maintained in the organization and he should be telling the CEO that he's more than happy to make it happen, he just needs the cost approved. The CEO can then decide whether or not it is worth it to the organization. They can secure it, they just don't want to.

If more IT managers worried about spending less time attacking their internal users WHILE protecting the company from outside attackers there would be a lot more trust placed in IT organizations and we wouldn't be fighting such an uphill battle to have our voices heard by both business managers and the rank and file employee. Once they know that you give a crap about them, most employees are more than willing to listen to you when you try to tell them that something is important.
 
FlyNE said:
For instance, Jesse works for my company. There is no "business reason" for him to have either iTunes or X-plane installed on his company computer.
Click to expand...
X-Plane on my company laptop? Never :rofl:
 
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Cap'n Jack said:
Kent- whatever.

I'd consider a Mac based on the experience of people like Jesse who consider the machine to be a tool and will explain the shortcomings of a machine or operating system, for my particular needs, without blindly defending it.
Click to expand...

I'm not blindly defending it - I'm pointing out that just because you thought Macs were more virus prone, or that you didn't know how to open a file in a program other than the one it was created in were not shortcomings of the platform. :no:

That said, this is a silly argument - we're not buying 80's computers any more, we're buying 2009 computers. The Mac is not the be-all end-all machine for every application or every person (nor is Windows, nor is Linux, nor any other platform).

The reason us Mac people tend to be defensive is that there have been so many lies spread about Macs through the years that people tend to default to Windows, when in many cases the Mac would be a better choice. That's all.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I'm not blindly defending it - I'm pointing out that just because you thought Macs were more virus prone, or that you didn't know how to open a file in a program other than the one it was created in were not shortcomings of the platform. :no:
<SNIP>
Click to expand...
It's asinine comments like the one above that caused me to make the statement below. I was neither lying nor was I incompetant at using a Mac.
Cap'n Jack said:
I just got a bit PO'd when people tell me my experience with a product is wrong or doesn't count.
Click to expand...

flyingcheesehead said:
That's all
Click to expand...
That's right- I'm done with this conversation
 
gprellwitz said:
So, do I get a new POH for the T182T that removes the bolded note "Lean of Peak (LOP) operations are not authorized?" (Of course, since there's only a single CHT/TIT gauge, I don't have enough instrumentation in any case.)
Click to expand...

Thank you. Even the most ardent LOP'er has told me "only a single CHT/EGT gauge? Stay with "pull until it stumbles and then richen"".

So some of us run ROP simply because we do not have the engine instrumentation to run LOP. *shrug*
 
FlyNE said:
If more IT managers worried about spending less time attacking their internal users WHILE protecting the company from outside attackers.....
Click to expand...

Over 40% of attacks are from the inside. Those are the facts.

Why overload an already overloaded IT staff (most organizations) with trying to support crap that does not directly support the business? (CEO aside)
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Uhhh... Who cares? :dunno:
Click to expand...

Goes to show how versatile a mac ISN'T. Since my computer days started out doing CNC, structural design work, and 5 head plasma torch cutting, PCs were the choice. Macs couldn't do it then, and nearly 20 years later they still don't do it? Wow.....awesome machines.
 
EdFred said:
Goes to show how versatile a mac ISN'T. Since my computer days started out doing CNC, structural design work, and 5 head plasma torch cutting, PCs were the choice. Macs couldn't do it then, and nearly 20 years later they still don't do it? Wow.....awesome machines.
Click to expand...


A Mac -- as any other computer -- can run any program that is written for it. It's all about the market, and if there isn't an adequate market, there won't be programs.

I heard the same half-right "proofs" years ago, when I was with Martin-Marietta and we were tasked with writing a Mac front end for a ridiculously complicated DoD purchasing system:

"Macs can't do business software!"

"Then what's this?"

"Is that a Mac?"

"Yeah -- running business software..."
 
dmccormack said:
A Mac -- as any other computer -- can run any program that is written for it. It's all about the market, and if there isn't an adequate market, there won't be programs.

I heard the same half-right "proofs" years ago, when I was with Martin-Marietta and we were tasked with writing a Mac front end for a ridiculously complicated DoD purchasing system:

"Macs can't do business software!"

"Then what's this?"

"Is that a Mac?"

"Yeah -- running business software..."
Click to expand...

True, but if things haven't changed, I can't do what I just did last month, build my own computer, and have it be a Mac. I don't know how fast Macs are, but this thing fliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiieeeeeeees. I always build my own desktops, and AFAIK you still can't build a Mac.
 
EdFred said:
True, but if things haven't changed, I can't do what I just did last month, build my own computer, and have it be a Mac. I don't know how fast Macs are, but this thing fliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiieeeeeeees. I always build my own desktops, and AFAIK you still can't build a Mac.
Click to expand...


Right -- but that is the result of a business decision by Apple to require proprietary hardware components -- not a technical limitation.

I'm using a PC right now -- and haven't touched a Mac in over 15 years. I had Graphic Artist working for me who was a Mac-nut, and the OS looked nice, etc etc.

But the compelling difference in usability is no longer the issue it was from 1986 through 1995 or so, when PCs were cobbled-together messes.
 
dmccormack said:
Quite frankly -- no.

Every new PC I've used in the last 10 years has been a setup, turn on, start using event.
Click to expand...
Well maybe I did not understand what you meant by cobled together. I still see many items in PCs that are not fully regression tested. When software upgrades come out it can cause havoc with peripherals. About all that is changed is that the big three do a better job of letting people order what they want with some reasonable expectation that it will work up and until a M$ software update. After that, you're on your own. It is one of the reasons that many software patches are slow to roll out in the enterprise world. Far too often something comes along that breaks the configuration of the corporate user's computers.

One of the solutions has been for corporate IT department to come up with 1 or 2 "standard" configurations. Thus forcing people into a solution that creates the least amount of work for IT when updates come out or other support is needed.
 
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