AOA indicator

At least there is no "Blue Doughnut"!

Truth told, mine is a Lift Reserve Indicator and has a red zone, a white zone, and the green zone.
 
Of course. How stupid of me.
 
I wonder if the googlie eyes above the AI are a TSO'd item?

Off topic, kind of, but why are panels an older planes so hodge podge? It wasn't really until much later models, well into the 90s, that panels started to be a little kinder to us OCD types. The panel the OP posted could not possible be any more random... any WHY do the old Cessnas and Pipers have that god awful plastic molding around all the instruments. Was that supposed to look fancy at one point? What's worse is they came up with the sort of cut-out pieces here and there, almost to serve as a daily reminder of all the additional options you couldn't afford

I get that owners make changes to their panel and swap out avionics, etc., but does one literally just sit there and say "there! I'll put this new CD player right here!" I mean... in the OP's panel, why isn't the VSI in the spot right under the altimeter where the turn/bank is? If you simply swapped positions with the VSI and turn bank indicator that alone would make more sense..

Was the styling just different in the 70s and 80s? Cars of the era, and airliners of the era, didn't have that same appeal of "we just jammed these whereever the hell they may fit"



I mean, let's look at this classic Cessna panel.. why not put all the switches logically in the same spot. Why have alt/master on the left, then a random cluster over on the bottom right.. I would think for wiring behind the panel that would make things easier as well... then we have all this beautiful space in the middle of the panel wasted, and being occupied by one of those "put a future oblong kind of rectangular instrument here" spots (what the hell is supposed to fit there) and a small vacuum gauge... because that beautiful real estate in the center of the panel was wasted now they have to put the airspeed and turn/bank just slightly lower than the other instruments to really F with the order and organization... then they put the flap handle and gauge somewhere way on the right, so you have to lean forward and molest your instructor's knee to find the switch.. and your engine instruments (generally important in a ONE engine plane) are pretty much all the way to the right, out of sight out of mind. That has also wasted a bunch of space on the copilot panel so if you ever did want to put a second AI in, or some other instruments you are SOL. The primer is no where near the throttle and mixture... ugh, the list goes on

At least older Pipers had some more organization... all the key gauges where in a nice neat pattern, engine stuff was right in front of you, carb heat and primer where next to the throttle "quadrant" and all the switches where nicely in the same row

Okay, rant over.

upload_2017-12-20_11-20-13.png
 
It looks like someone came up with that panel layout using a dartboard and a blind fold.
 
Okay, I think I recal the big AOA hubbub/joke, but it does seem like many here don’t see the value. They are not the most needed piece of equipment on a straight wing light airplane, but they are useful.
 
Tantalum said:
I wonder if the googlie eyes above the AI are a TSO'd item?

Off topic, kind of, but why are panels an older planes so hodge podge? It wasn't really until much later models, well into the 90s, that panels started to be a little kinder to us OCD types. The panel the OP posted could not possible be any more random... any WHY do the old Cessnas and Pipers have that god awful plastic molding around all the instruments. Was that supposed to look fancy at one point? What's worse is they came up with the sort of cut-out pieces here and there, almost to serve as a daily reminder of all the additional options you couldn't afford

I get that owners make changes to their panel and swap out avionics, etc., but does one literally just sit there and say "there! I'll put this new CD player right here!" I mean... in the OP's panel, why isn't the VSI in the spot right under the altimeter where the turn/bank is? If you simply swapped positions with the VSI and turn bank indicator that alone would make more sense..

Was the styling just different in the 70s and 80s? Cars of the era, and airliners of the era, didn't have that same appeal of "we just jammed these whereever the hell they may fit"



I mean, let's look at this classic Cessna panel.. why not put all the switches logically in the same spot. Why have alt/master on the left, then a random cluster over on the bottom right.. I would think for wiring behind the panel that would make things easier as well... then we have all this beautiful space in the middle of the panel wasted, and being occupied by one of those "put a future oblong kind of rectangular instrument here" spots (what the hell is supposed to fit there) and a small vacuum gauge... because that beautiful real estate in the center of the panel was wasted now they have to put the airspeed and turn/bank just slightly lower than the other instruments to really F with the order and organization... then they put the flap handle and gauge somewhere way on the right, so you have to lean forward and molest your instructor's knee to find the switch.. and your engine instruments (generally important in a ONE engine plane) are pretty much all the way to the right, out of sight out of mind. That has also wasted a bunch of space on the copilot panel so if you ever did want to put a second AI in, or some other instruments you are SOL. The primer is no where near the throttle and mixture... ugh, the list goes on

At least older Pipers had some more organization... all the key gauges where in a nice neat pattern, engine stuff was right in front of you, carb heat and primer where next to the throttle "quadrant" and all the switches where nicely in the same row

Okay, rant over.

View attachment 58643
Click to expand...
I think it was late 60's/early 70's that the T six pack became standard. The ones before that are known as 'Shotgun' panels nowadays.
 
Tantalum said:
Was the styling just different in the 70s and 80s? Cars of the era, and airliners of the era, didn't have that same appeal of "we just jammed these whereever the hell they may fit"
Click to expand...

Cars and airliners of the era were just as much of a mess. But you’re talking about the wrong era. 70s airplane panels were designed in the 60s. ;) Remember, Aviation is at least a decade behind on everything.

FlySince9 said:
I only have one comment/question... WTF happened to your gust lock? :p
Click to expand...

LOL... wrong gust lock for that airplane. Someone didn’t want to spend $300 for the right one and grabbed a used one from somewhere.
 
Tantalum said:
True, but they seemed to have more artistic "steampunk" type design to it
Click to expand...

8c8d7528db87975c614798864b96d80c.jpeg
 
Tantalum said:
I wonder if the googlie eyes above the AI are a TSO'd item?

Off topic, kind of, but why are panels an older planes so hodge podge? It wasn't really until much later models, well into the 90s, that panels started to be a little kinder to us OCD types. The panel the OP posted could not possible be any more random... any WHY do the old Cessnas and Pipers have that god awful plastic molding around all the instruments. Was that supposed to look fancy at one point? What's worse is they came up with the sort of cut-out pieces here and there, almost to serve as a daily reminder of all the additional options you couldn't afford

I get that owners make changes to their panel and swap out avionics, etc., but does one literally just sit there and say "there! I'll put this new CD player right here!" I mean... in the OP's panel, why isn't the VSI in the spot right under the altimeter where the turn/bank is? If you simply swapped positions with the VSI and turn bank indicator that alone would make more sense..

Was the styling just different in the 70s and 80s? Cars of the era, and airliners of the era, didn't have that same appeal of "we just jammed these whereever the hell they may fit"



I mean, let's look at this classic Cessna panel.. why not put all the switches logically in the same spot. Why have alt/master on the left, then a random cluster over on the bottom right.. I would think for wiring behind the panel that would make things easier as well... then we have all this beautiful space in the middle of the panel wasted, and being occupied by one of those "put a future oblong kind of rectangular instrument here" spots (what the hell is supposed to fit there) and a small vacuum gauge... because that beautiful real estate in the center of the panel was wasted now they have to put the airspeed and turn/bank just slightly lower than the other instruments to really F with the order and organization... then they put the flap handle and gauge somewhere way on the right, so you have to lean forward and molest your instructor's knee to find the switch.. and your engine instruments (generally important in a ONE engine plane) are pretty much all the way to the right, out of sight out of mind. That has also wasted a bunch of space on the copilot panel so if you ever did want to put a second AI in, or some other instruments you are SOL. The primer is no where near the throttle and mixture... ugh, the list goes on

At least older Pipers had some more organization... all the key gauges where in a nice neat pattern, engine stuff was right in front of you, carb heat and primer where next to the throttle "quadrant" and all the switches where nicely in the same row

Okay, rant over.

View attachment 58643
Click to expand...

I just convinced my Dad that he needs this in 1968 Cessna 182. I think we will end up with a separate digital fuel gauge somewhere too. I'm not crazy about the old clock or its location but hey, it still works.

upload_2017-12-20_13-16-39.png
 

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^that 727(?) cockpit is not too bad though, all the engine gauges are logically in the center visible to both pilots and your core instruments are all in the same line in a nice cluster. Care was taken with it, they even outlined certain instrument families

Comparing apples/apples for sure, but the vintage Skyhawks and Grummans seem like a legit free for all. In that 172 panel I posted, what on earth was the point of that dead space in the middle, most critical part of the panel? And why scatter the switches all over the bottom of the panel and scatter the engine gauges on the far right?
 
bnt83 said:
I just convinced my Dad that he needs this in 1968 Cessna 182. I think we will end up with a separate digital fuel gauge somewhere too.
Click to expand...
Looks beautiful!

I would maybe just swap nav 2 and the engine gauge cluster.. and if I had money to spare put a backup electric AI in the blank.. just in case the G5(?) goes belly up. But that's stylistic... you have everything neatly organized in a pattern and line and gauges make logical sense as to where they are... as opposed to just a random mess
 
bnt83 said:
I just convinced my Dad that he needs this in 1968 Cessna 182. I think we will end up with a separate digital fuel gauge somewhere too. I'm not crazy about the old clock or its location but hey, it still works.

View attachment 58654
Click to expand...

Field approval on the Garmin A/P, or waiting for next year or whenever they get it through approval?
 
Tantalum said:
^that 727(?) cockpit is not too bad though, all the engine gauges are logically in the center visible to both pilots and your core instruments are all in the same line in a nice cluster. Care was taken with it, they even outlined certain instrument families

Comparing apples/apples for sure, but the vintage Skyhawks and Grummans seem like a legit free for all. In that 172 panel I posted, what on earth was the point of that dead space in the middle, most critical part of the panel? And why scatter the switches all over the bottom of the panel and scatter the engine gauges on the far right?
Click to expand...


They put marker beacon lthere, when that was a "must have" for IFR.

upload_2017-12-20_13-26-6.png
 
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Tantalum said:
Comparing apples/apples for sure, but the vintage Skyhawks and Grummans seem like a legit free for all. In that 172 panel I posted, what on earth was the point of that dead space in the middle, most critical part of the panel? And why scatter the switches all over the bottom of the panel and scatter the engine gauges on the far right?
Click to expand...

The cutout in the middle I think originally matched the marker beacon receiver you got if you upgraded to IFR at the factory. That airplane probably never had it, and it’s stuffed under the audio panel in the stack. I’d have to go look for photos of that thing that fit in there.

Switches on the bottom matches most Pipers of the era that I’ve seen?? Switches didn’t move to the left side wall or overhead until the 80s or so... I like the overhead switches better than anything, but they’re still pretty rare in anything, even today.

Engine stuff on the Cessnas kinda made sense in the original layouts for IFR... the far right side was taken up by a massive ADF receiver so the engine stuff sat in between the stack and that. That and needing to bring stuff through the firewall. Was easier to do on the right side near the heater air box and stuff already coming through from the other side there.
 
Tantalum said:
Looks beautiful!

I would maybe just swap nav 2 and the engine gauge cluster.. and if I had money to spare put a backup electric AI in the blank.. just in case the G5(?) goes belly up. But that's stylistic... you have everything neatly organized in a pattern and line and gauges make logical sense as to where they are... as opposed to just a random mess
Click to expand...


I'm not sure where he would like the engine monitor more, I know darn well he'll rarely use #2 nav so I would put the monitor wherever its easier for him to see and read.
 
bnt83 said:
They put marker beacon lights there, when that was a "must have" for IFR.
Click to expand...
Cool, thanks, that makes more sense then doesn't really experience my other issues with the panel. Still seems like a lot of real estate to use for something that really just needs a light and a tone to tell you where you are on final. I would have swapped the marker lights and the airspeed/turnbank.. I think that would make the panel neater and more logical.

Pipers, Beech, and Mooney always seemed a little more orderly and organized. Grumman and Cessna always had that "put this anywhere" type feel to them.

I realize this is crazy subjective though. High wing Cessnas sold like crazy so there's that.. and I'm usually in the minority when it comes to these things
 
The Cessna 150 I had put the master switch at the top of a stack of switches along the RH side of the center radio stack, right above the landing light switch. All switches were push/pull types. Of course on the darkest night of the year I slapped the wrong switch at about 300 feet after departing and everything went dark. :rolleyes:
 
denverpilot said:
Engine stuff on the Cessnas kinda made sense in the original layouts for IFR... the far right side was taken up by a massive ADF receiver so the engine stuff sat in between the stack and that. That and needing to bring stuff through the firewall. Was easier to do on the right side near the heater air box and stuff already coming through from the other side there.
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Thanks, makes sense. I'm sure the engineers and designers did everything for a reason. I guess from today's perspective those reasons are less apparent

I agree, I love overhead switches. The newer Archers have lights, magnetos, starter, and primer switches overhead, and then AP/radio/pitot on the main panel

bnt83 said:
I know darn well he'll rarely use #2 nav
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true, good point. the extent of my nav 2 usage is basically to intercept a radial on a missed approach. pretty much never gets any real usage
 
bnt83 said:
The Cessna 150 I had put the master switch at the top of a stack of switches along the RH side of the center radio stack, right above the landing light switch. All switches were push/pull types. Of course on the darkest night of the year I slapped the wrong switch at about 300 feet after departing and everything went dark. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

LOL. Is that old enough to have the spring loaded starter switch that you pulled on like a pinball machine ball launcher? The 150 I soloed in, had that. I don’t think we ever flew it at night.

Tantalum said:
Thanks, makes sense. I'm sure the engineers and designers did everything for a reason. I guess from today's perspective those reasons are less apparent

I agree, I love overhead switches. The newer Archers have lights, magnetos, starter, and primer switches overhead, and then AP/radio/pitot on the main panel
Click to expand...

Yeah that Skyhawk photo above nearly matches what our 182 had from the factory in 1975. The Cessna/Arc 200 autopilot is up in the stack instead of down on the bottom like in the Skyhawk. I’ve never seen a Skyhawk where anybody paid for that thing down there or has the hole where someone removed it, but it was a factory option.

Then the owner in the 90s pulled most of the Cessna/Arc stuff and replaced with King radios and OBS and stuff...

Then when the ADF died we pulled that and crap canned it and its antennas. We found a new panel overlay that was purchased to fix a wrecked 182 and was the wrong one, sitting on a shelf at Beegles and put that in, getting rid of the huge hole where the ADF was, but it fits poorly and slouches on its Velcro...

Now we’re ripping out the VOR-only King, ripping out the now-dead King DME, moving the King with Glideslope down in the stack, putting a GTN 650 at the top under the audio panel, ripping out the Cessna/Arc original transponder (the only original avionics that made it 42 years, which is damned impressive really) and replacing with a GTX 345, and shuffling the new OBS for the Garmin up top and the King driven OBS down to number two.

Our marker beacon receiver moved into the audio panel in the 90s King retrofit also, no idea where it was before that but on the 182 they were usually all the way over on the far left of the panel in a little rectangular shaped cutout like in that 172, which is where our DME NAV 1/2 switch got mounted in the 90s). We have to keep a switch over there for Nav 1/2 feeding the venerable old A/P, so we’ll see what the shop does with location on all that.

Maybe someday we’ll get a nice flat metal panel made up and have everything remounted, but I kinda doubt it. Not unless we did a massive interior retrofit and the old panel just wouldn’t look right anymore.
 
Sounds like you have fun work ahead of you, I imagine that's one of the cool things with owning an airplane, the flexibility to build a panel that's right for you. I always kind of wished my FJ Cruiser gave me more options aftermarket to customize the gauge cluster without looking hodge-podge

denverpilot said:
putting a GTN 650 at the top under the audio panel
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The GTN650 is awesome. I have about 60hrs behind one now and love it.. really getting to know it inside and out. Sat behind a 430 the other day and it felt low tech, lol. I remember when our club back on the east coast got the first 430 Warrior I was blown away by it

PS, for the GTN, would you get Flightstream with it? Pretty cool to build a plan on your ipad in Foreflight then just zap it into the GTN (and vice versa)
 
Tantalum said:
Sounds like you have fun work ahead of you, I imagine that's one of the cool things with owning an airplane, the flexibility to build a panel that's right for you. I always kind of wished my FJ Cruiser gave me more options aftermarket to customize the gauge cluster without looking hodge-podge


The GTN650 is awesome. I have about 60hrs behind one now and love it.. really getting to know it inside and out. Sat behind a 430 the other day and it felt low tech, lol. I remember when our club back on the east coast got the first 430 Warrior I was blown away by it

PS, for the GTN, would you get Flightstream with it? Pretty cool to build a plan on your ipad in Foreflight then just zap it into the GTN (and vice versa)
Click to expand...

Yes, the 510.
 
Tantalum said:
PS, for the GTN, would you get Flightstream with it? Pretty cool to build a plan on your ipad in Foreflight then just zap it into the GTN (and vice versa)
Click to expand...

bnt83 said:
Yes, the 510.
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Definitely. 510. We almost forgot it. Would have had ADS-B IN from the Bluetooth in the 345 but not the flight plan stuff with the 650.
 
luvflyin said:
I think it was late 60's/early 70's that the T six pack became standard. The ones before that are known as 'Shotgun' panels nowadays.
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Late 60s thru early '70s was when Cessna changed them over, a model or two at a time. The "scramble panels" had reason for being such a mess; the old gyros were massive affairs and had to fit within existing structure out of sight behind the panel, and clear the controls as well. When newer, smaller gyros (and radios!) came available the manufacturers were able to reorganize the panel and still clear structure or controls, though some Cessnas acquired different control components to aid in the clearances, mechanisms that are also out of sight of the pilot/owner who therefore doesn't understand why some stuff is the way it is or was.
 
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