"Any Traffic In The Area, Please Advise."

jmaynard said:
...and how many of those end "<airport> traffic", not just "<airport>".
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Augh!
One of my new peeves... seems to be quite popular 'round some patches near here - and I can only imagine it will spread as the offending CFIs continue and the newly-minted pilots fly off to new pastures. :dunno:
 
I was taught "airport traffic" and, IIRC, that's the way it appears in the AIM. That said, I've caught myself getting lax as of late. I hereby resolve to do a better job!:yes:
 
As Doc Dave has observed, one of our frequent destinations, after pilot-created contractions, comes out as "Glespy Cow Traffic." Makes me chuckle.
 
Geico266 said:
...In an RV, traveling about 180MPH on decent you can eat up that remaining distance to the pattern in a matter of seconds....
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You enter the pattern at 180 MPH? Any forum members who fly bizjets want to tell us what speed they fly the last 5-6 miles to an uncontrolled airport.
 
kkoran said:
You enter the pattern at 180 MPH? Any forum members who fly bizjets want to tell us what speed they fly the last 5-6 miles to an uncontrolled airport.
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To the pattern is not the same as in the pattern.
 
ATITAPA is a big pet peeve of many pilots.

To me? It irritates the hell outta me, mostly because it is listed in the AIM as a message not to ever be used. There is no other phrase I know of that is specifically banned in the AIM.

Now....if someone does it, I respond with my position, followed with "Read the changes to the AIM." It doesn't take much time, and hopefully it will save them from wasting bandwidth as a busy airport. Here in Albuquerque, even when it is SUPER busy, ATITAPA doesn't take as much time as Johny 80 Year old telling his life story over the UNICOM, including what he had for lunch.

I think it is less safe to ignore the call.

Obviously, it is not a needed phrase, because without it, people should respond to your call up. If they don't you're supposed to be looking for NORDO pilots anyways, so really, you're wasting a lot of bandwidth for an empty statement. To me, if you're going to use the phrase, I'm going to respond, because you're a horrible pilot that isn't looking for NORDO pilots anyways, and I'd rather you hit one of them than one of me.
 
SkyHog said:
I think it is less safe to ignore the call.
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I'll ignore the call. But I am also making position reports. I see no reason that a minute after making, say, a downwind turn call and with in a minute about to make a turning base call for me to remind the guy who had not been listening the first place where I am. IMHO he probably is not really looking or listening. But now I know where he is and I can look for him with a little more information. It is his responsibility to listen to the calls being made not ask for them to be repeated just for him.
 
gprellwitz said:
I was taught "airport traffic" and, IIRC, that's the way it appears in the AIM.
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Nope. See AIM 4-1-9(g)(6): "To help identify one airport from another, the airport name should be spoken at the beginning and end of each self-announce transmission."
 
Yes, I use "Double Eagle Traffic.....blah blah, Double Eagle"

FWIW, my understanding is not that you're repeating the name of the airport at the end in case anyone missed you, but rather is broken down as following:

1. UNICOM/MULTICOMM you are calling
2. Intentions
3. Airport you are referring to

So, the only place nearby I can imagine this being different between 1 and 3 is at Belen or Los Lunas airports, which are like <6nm apart. One could say:

Belen Traffic, Bugsmasher XXX is turning left downwind, Los Lunas.

But most people would get confused.
 
kkoran said:
You enter the pattern at 180 MPH? Any forum members who fly bizjets want to tell us what speed they fly the last 5-6 miles to an uncontrolled airport.
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These are really ballpark numbers but I would say 150-180 knots at 5 miles slowing to about 120-130 knots on 1 mile final.
 
jmaynard said:
Nope. See AIM 4-1-9(g)(6): "To help identify one airport from another, the airport name should be spoken at the beginning and end of each self-announce transmission."
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Absolutely correct, Jay, but as a practical matter those transmissions are intended for the ears of others in the area so that they might adjust their plans to fit in with the flow. The admonition to say the airport name is aimed at those situations where there are several airports close together, all using 122.8 for Unicom. So IMHO saying both the airport name and "traffic" is legit.

Bob Gardner
SAY AGAIN, PLEASE
 
Geico266 said:
Yea, he does make sense, no more ATITAPA for me! :no:
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Good for you. Rather than clamor for some sort of official ban on that dreaded phrase, we all just need to point out to ATITAPA users how it has no use that isn't covered by the usual transmissions, and it just clutters up the CTAF.

Now if I could only convince you to slow down before entering the pattern... :D
 
fdorrin said:
I understand your point of view, but don't agree with it. I'm an experienced instructor, but haven't flown anything very fast. You may have compelling reasons I don't see.

In my opinion, this phrase should not be used during daylight hours at a busy GA airport. Close in or not. Announce your own position and then listen. The act of announcing will prompt the replies you need from those that may be a factor. See http://www.airdorrin.com/safetycorner.html for my point of view on this.
------------------
Frank Dorrin Jr
Comm-CFII; MEI 33N, KGED
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Frank good to see you on the board sorry I missed you at the AFE event to bad it was cancelled. Just curious why do you limite your advice not to use the phrase during day light hours?

As for the second item about someone saying " All Traffic Be Advised" Hmmmmm me thinks me knows who you are refering to :D

Hope you'll chime in more often.
 
jmaynard said:
...and how many of those end "<airport> traffic", not just "<airport>".
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Yeah, the "traffic" suffix is intended to distinguish between a traffic announcement or query and one to Unicom (often on the same freq).
But I guess the context covers that: unlikely anyone will ask other traffic about fuel, or ask for directions.


Also, somebody mentioned using the identifier instead of saying the name of the field: I don't think I've ever (ever!) heard anybody call with the identifier- generally the airport name is easier and quicker to say than the phonetic-alphabet version of the identifier; maybe that's why.

Never heard any of my instructors use it, never heard it enroute or in the pattern anywhere. It's always "Morristown", not "Kilo Mike Mike Uniform", etc.

You might also find that a lot of locals based at a field will not remember the identifier for their home airport... :D, especially if they rarely fly outside the area.
I still hear old-timers (on the ground, not on the air) refer to 47N as "Kupper" instead of Central Jersey; another thing altogether... :D
 
rottydaddy said:
...

Never heard any of my instructors use it, never heard it enroute or in the pattern anywhere. It's always "Morristown", not "Kilo Mike Mike Uniform", etc.

You might also find that a lot of locals based at a field will not remember the identifier for their home airport... :D, especially if they rarely fly outside the area.
I still hear old-timers (on the ground, not on the air) refer to 47N as "Kupper" instead of Central Jersey; another thing altogether... :D
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I wonder if PWK will answer to Pewaukee these days.

Franklin is Venango County

"Franklin Venango County traffic...."

OK. Is it runway "niner," "nine," "zero nine," or "zero niner." :rolleyes:
 
Geico266 said:
Yea, he does make sense, no more ATITAPA for me! :no:
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:goofy::goofy::goofy::goofy::goofy:

We got one converted in a single thread. I think that might just be a record.

Geico, the easiest way to get LNK to drop you is to call the field in sight. I tell them "Cherokee xyz has the field in sight" as soon as I see the water tower and they'll almost always drop me immediately.
 
jmaynard said:
...and how many of those end "<airport> traffic", not just "<airport>".
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This morning, I listened to a very flustered (probably student) pilot who didn't know if he was north or south of Salisbury, and had to be talked into the pattern by Tower, start and end each transmission with "Salisbury Tower," e.g., "Salisbury Tower, Cessna 123, turning left base, runway 14, Salisbury Tower." [sigh]
 
SkyHog said:
So, the only place nearby I can imagine this being different between 1 and 3 is at Belen or Los Lunas airports, which are like <6nm apart. One could say:

Belen Traffic, Bugsmasher XXX is turning left downwind, Los Lunas.

But most people would get confused.
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Either your at Belen or you're at Los Lunas. Stick with one or folks will indeed be confused about which airport you're at. They have this situation on the East Coast at South Jersey and Flying W -- two miles apart and sharing a CTAF. You call only the pattern you're in or everyone gets confused. If you're in the pattern at the other field, you just stay heads up for calls to both.
 
SkyHog said:
Yes, I use "Double Eagle Traffic.....blah blah, Double Eagle"
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Thanks to Jay's posting of the AIM reference and the fact that I had a little more time, I checked and found that the example Nick gave is correct.
Strawn traffic, Apache Two Two Five Zulu, (position), (altitude), (descending) or entering downwind/base/final (as appropriate) runway one seven full stop, touch-and-go, Strawn.
Strawn traffic Apache Two Two Five Zulu clear of runway one seven Strawn.
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And I was not specific in my post; the "traffic" only comes after the airport name at the beginning of the transmission, though I may at times do it (incorrectly) after the trailing airport too.
 
rottydaddy said:
Now if I could only convince you to slow down before entering the pattern... :D
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Well, maybe I don't enter the pattern at exactly 180 mph.:fcross: We have 2 FAA FSDO employees based at our airport..... lets just say they keep their eyes covered alot. :yes: They are really good guys to know.
 
FlyNE said:
Geico, the easiest way to get LNK to drop you is to call the field in sight. I tell them "Cherokee xyz has the field in sight" as soon as I see the water tower and they'll almost always drop me immediately.
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Ya know, I've even tried that. They came back to me and said: "Stick with me for 3-4 more miles and I'll cut you loose." I guess it may be they can't cut you loose until you leave their airspace, then I have 5 miles to the center of Crete, NE. You know the problem gets worse on weekends when jumpers are active. :hairraise:

The problem has been somewhat resolved because I added a new XCOM radio that can monitor 2 freqs at once. Works great, and I still have ATC as the primary freq.
 
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Ron Levy said:
The only way this phrase could be of value is if there's someone in the pattern who refuses to make the AC/AIM-recommended position reports unless someone uses that particular phrase. Otherwise, it's a waste of time. Make your appropriate reports, and anyone in the pattern should do the same. If not, begging via this phrase isn't likely to make any difference in that fool's actions, and it just clogs the frequency.
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Which in certain areas is EXACTLY what happens. People do "pattern work" happily without a single radio call, but inexplicably answer immediately when someone ASKS if anyone is there.
 
dmccormack said:
Never had that problem.

Technique difference, certainly.
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Yup...and indicative of why not everyone will "conform" to the way "things should be" because not everyone does things the same way.
 
tdager said:
Yup...and indicative of why not everyone will "conform" to the way "things should be" because not everyone does things the same way.
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Right, though I think the Army had the best description of this, differentiating between doctrine and technique.

Doctrine is the intent of the law.

Technique is how you applied doctrine to the specific situation. You cannot be "wrong" or graded poorly on technique if it fulfills the intent of doctrine.

In this discussion Doctrine would counsel: look out the window, make the appropriate (AIM suggested) radio calls, and fit into the flow of traffic in a predictable manner (45 on downwind, etc).

A Technique would be: Have secondary comm on CTAF, if you suspect someone is in the pattern but not announcing, announce 15 miles out that you're inbound and listen for the reply.
 
I have a friend who flies single-pilot jets into untowered fields. With a hefty work-load, he gets released to CTAF, with very little time to monitor the frequency. He announces his position, intentions and requests information.
 
Everskyward said:
These are really ballpark numbers but I would say 150-180 knots at 5 miles slowing to about 120-130 knots on 1 mile final.
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But be alert. 250 kts (almost 300 mph) is legal (except under Bravo airspace) and possible 5 - 6 miles out.
 
Lance F said:
But be alert. 250 kts (almost 300 mph) is legal (except under Bravo airspace) and possible 5 - 6 miles out.
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Haha. That's when you say, "Oops, I guess I ought to start slowing down." ;)
 
A Hawker jet is home-based at our small GA field. I seriously think the guy is either clueless or just enjoys messing with bug smashers.

A while ago I posted about his announcing "on base" when he was in fact 10 miles out midfield and a series of illogical position calls ("downwind" after base, "short final" while on base, etc).

Last week he was behind us, 10 o'clock or so, at least 5 miles out on the downwind. We were downwind abeam the numbers. Student had reduced power and was adding flaps when the Hawker announced, "We'll get there before you will..."

My student was flustered. We would have had to extend our downwind about 10 miles to accommodate him.

I looked at the Hawker (still on downwind, parallel to us but 5 miles from the runway), looked at the runway, and replied, "We'll be down and taxiing back before you're on final."

We did and in fact we were in position for the next takeoff when he touched down.
 
I just had something related happen to me yesterday. We had just announed a 5 mile straight in when a 172 announced that he was on the 45 for the downwind. We asked him what his intentions were and he said he'd land before us. He was quite surprised when we were short final as he was approaching his base turn.

I'm usually at 160 or so until 2 miles, then 120-80 for the last bit. Nothing wrong with entering the pattern fast.

Felix
 
I listen to the radio all day while I'm at work, and there are quite a few pilots who ask for "other traffic in the area". I can understand students getting mixed up and wondering where everyone is, but I hear it from the corporate types quite often. I think that is because they're closing flight plans and stuff on the way in, and they don't monitor the unicom very well. When I'm up flying, it doesn't bother me if someone asks for "any traffic in the area". I pipe up with my position, but I do think it is a rookie thing to ask. On the other hand, when I go flying myself, it is usually just a joy ride, and I often times get on the radio and if there is a student out flying I'll ask what they are going to do, and where, just so that I can stay out of their way. I don't know if that is good, or bad. If I happen to be checking out a plane at the same time as a student, I'll ask on the ground.
 
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Maxmosbey said:
I listen to the radio all day while I'm at work, and there are quite a few pilots who ask for "other traffic in the area". I can understand students getting mixed up and wondering where everyone is, but I hear it from the corporate types quite often. I think that is because they're closing flight plans and stuff on the way in, and they don't monitor the unicom very well. When I'm up flying, it doesn't bother me if someone asks for "any traffic in the area". I pipe up with my position, but I do think it is a rookie thing to ask.
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Hm?

I'll leave alone the notion that jet jocks are too busy squaring away to monitor CTAFs properly when approaching an uncontrolled field because I've never done that kind of flying, but what I still don't get about ATITAPA in even that case is why they assume that when they announce their position and intentions, as is always the thing that comes before "ATITAPA", nobody will bother to mention that their own position and intentions might be of some concern to the arriving traffic... unless they specifically ask for an advisory.

I mean, why else say it? If I'm closer to the airport, in the pattern or wherever, and I hear someone make an initial callup, if my mental view of the big picture puts us in any potential conflict, I'll make an extra position call, often addressing the arrival personally. They don't have to ask.

It's just like when you're on final and someone declares they are taking position or departing... you just let them know you're coming. Nobody calls "ATITAPA" on final, do they? ("Any traffic taking the runway without announcing or even looking first, please advise that you are going to force me to go around...") :D
 
rottydaddy said:
...
It's just like when you're on final and someone declares they are taking position or departing... you just let them know you're coming. Nobody calls "ATITAPA" on final, do they? ("Any traffic taking the runway without announcing or even looking first, please advise that you are going to force me to go around...") :D
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Anybody who can't hear me please let me know.
 
rottydaddy said:
[...] It's just like when you're on final and someone declares they are taking position or departing... you just let them know you're coming. Nobody calls "ATITAPA" on final, do they? ("Any traffic taking the runway without announcing or even looking first, please advise that you are going to force me to go around...") :D
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What a great idea!! I'll have to try that next time!:goofy:
 
Maxmosbey said:
When I'm up flying, it doesn't bother me if someone asks for "any traffic in the area".
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In your midwestern location, it may not be the problem it is where I live in the Mid-Atlantic region, where CTAF's are often shared by several airports all within radio earshot of each other. Those ATITAPA calls clobber the frequency for all those airports when the frequency is already pretty well jammed.
 
Last night, flying north of Philadelphia between 5:30 and 8:15pm, I must have heard this phrase nearly a dozen times. Once after departing Pottstown-Limerick and calling my departure from the pattern, an Arrow on a GPS approach called 5 miles out and "Any traffic in the pattern please advise".... I just made my call telling you I was leaving the pattern to the South, and he asked.

On the CTAF frequencies around here, there are easily 4-5 airports sharing within a clear distance of eachother, and you get tired of hearing people asking,..
 
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