"Any Traffic In The Area, Please Advise."

Geico266

Geico266

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Geico
This phrase has been deemed by the FAA in the AIMS as being "unnecessary".

Copied from the link:

One of the changes that has appeared in the 2007 AIM is in section 4-1-9(g).
Allow me to quote it for you:

"Self-announce is a procedure whereby pilots broadcast their position or intended flight activity or ground operation on the designated CTAF . . . Pilots stating 'Traffic in the area please advise' is not a recognized Self-Announce Position and/or Intention phrase and should not be used under any condition."

http://www.faa-ground-school.com/library/Any-Traffic-Please-Advise.htm

Okay, but this does not mean there are not circumstances where it is helpful. An example; On flight following from Lincoln, NE (KLNK) to Crete, NE (KCEK) (a distance of 16 miles) the approach guys will hold you to their frequency and kick you loose 4-5 miles from Crete. In an RV, traveling about 180MPH on decent you can eat up that remaining distance to the pattern in a matter of seconds. There are times when I make the switch and transmit my position and intentions, and ask for traffic. While I think the subject phrase may be overused, I think there are times when it is okay AFTER stating your position, altitude, and intentions.

What started this (never ending) debate again for me was not going into Crete, rather flying into KC yesterday I heard a guy say it, and another pilot scold him for it! I could not believe my ears! On 122.800 (In the busy KC area) to have one pilot scold another for phraseology was pretty bad. He even said this phrase is "forbidden".:rofl:

Where is the civility among pilots? I hear pilots say some silly stuff, but I know what they mean, or I can figure it out, if not I ask, but I would never dream of "confronting" someone on the radio to correct them (Except the moron that was scolding the other pilot.)

Can't we all just get along? :cheers:

Thanks for the rant, I feel better now. :happydance:
 
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Geico266 said:
I agree with that! :yes:
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Well that is all I am agree with other than the radio police stuff. The phrase is useless and has been talked about to death.

I think you are being a
attachment.php


(Pilot troll- get it?)

by posting this topic ;););)

But I do agree that taking the time and spectrum to ***** on the radio about is not useful and as annoying as the fools who compare their arispeeds to each on the CTAFs instead of the air to air frequencies.
 

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Geico266 said:
Where is the civility among pilots? I hear pilots say some silly stuff, but I know what they mean, or I can figure it out, if not I ask, but I would never dream of "confronting" someone on the radio to correct them (Except the moron that was scolding the other pilot.)
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+1

The radio police are as bad as the perpetrators of bad technique.

But you'll be sorry you brought this subject up. ;) :eek: :D
 
The only way this phrase could be of value is if there's someone in the pattern who refuses to make the AC/AIM-recommended position reports unless someone uses that particular phrase. Otherwise, it's a waste of time. Make your appropriate reports, and anyone in the pattern should do the same. If not, begging via this phrase isn't likely to make any difference in that fool's actions, and it just clogs the frequency.
 
Geico266 said:
Okay, but this does not mean there are not circumstances where it is helpful. An example; On flight following from Lincoln, NE (KLNK) to Crete, NE (KCEK) (a distance of 16 miles) the approach guys will hold you to their frequency and kick you loose 4-5 miles from Crete.
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That would be a mile or two outside of Class C airspace. They're not holding you to their frequency, once you exit Class C airspace you're free to go.

They're supposed to terminate Class C service to aircraft landing at other than the primary airport at a sufficient distance from the airport to allow the pilot to change to the appropriate frequency for traffic and airport information.
 
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To back up roncachamp, if I get to 10 miles from my destination nontowered airport, I'll request change to CTAF, and pretty much always get it immediately unless they have someone between me and the airport (in which case they give me that traffic and then turn me loose). Also, I've found that if you call the field in sight, they'll generally cut you loose immediately. If you do neither, they usually won't cut you loose on their own initiative until you're almost on top of the airport -- many controllers don't seem to realize how much distance you eat up making your initial call and figuring/executing your entry to the pattern, especially when you're approaching from the pattern side. IOW, it's up to the PIC, not ATC, to see that you get switched in a timely manner.
 
Already discussed in [thread=9190]Ron's thread[/thread] from 8/2006. You need to learn to be like Scott and resurrect dead threads! :)
 
Ron Levy said:
To back up roncachamp, if I get to 10 miles from my destination nontowered airport, I'll request change to CTAF, and pretty much always get it immediately unless they have someone between me and the airport (in which case they give me that traffic and then turn me loose). Also, I've found that if you call the field in sight, they'll generally cut you loose immediately. If you do neither, they usually won't cut you loose on their own initiative until you're almost on top of the airport -- many controllers don't seem to realize how much distance you eat up making your initial call and figuring/executing your entry to the pattern, especially when you're approaching from the pattern side. IOW, it's up to the PIC, not ATC, to see that you get switched in a timely manner.
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Agreed, but CTAF monitoring isn't very hard -- unless you're flying with a single Comm radio, you can tune in CTAF and listen to BOTH.

When approaching airspace IFR I am always told if there is any observed traffic between my and the airport (or in the pattern).

But it's usually not news since after listening to AWOS, the secondary freq gets flipped to 122.8.
 
I understand your point of view, but don't agree with it. I'm an experienced instructor, but haven't flown anything very fast. You may have compelling reasons I don't see.

In my opinion, this phrase should not be used during daylight hours at a busy GA airport. Close in or not. Announce your own position and then listen. The act of announcing will prompt the replies you need from those that may be a factor. See http://www.airdorrin.com/safetycorner.html for my point of view on this.
------------------
Frank Dorrin Jr
Comm-CFII; MEI 33N, KGED
 
First of all, I don't think I've said this yet...but welcome to the board. It's nice to see another LNK'er around these parts. :yes:

I do, however, have to disagree with parts of your post. Assuming you're flying single comm (because otherwise you'd be monitoring KCEK on the second comm :)) I would suggest, as others have, that you ask for the release earlier. KLNK will release you earlier if you request it. If flying single comm, it is possible to tell them that you're switching over to monitor the destination and they'll approve it. Assuming you stay under the outer ring, you can request release by POTTS and be on with KCEK CTAF way earlier in the flight. Departure will warn you if they see something that may conflict before they release you.

I've found that if Lincoln is holding on to you it's because they probably believe you're monitoring Crete on a second comm.

You'll be beating your head against a wall if you're hoping to get anybody on this board to admit that the phrase has it's place. I was on the "what does it hurt?" and "it has it's place" trains early in my time here. I've since seen the light thanks to countless threads on the topic.

That said, scolding on a busy frequency is bad form. Now, lighthearted ribbing on a lightly trafficked frequency like Crete's? :dunno: :D:D:D:D
 
dmccormack said:
Agreed, but CTAF monitoring isn't very hard -- unless you're flying with a single Comm radio, you can tune in CTAF and listen to BOTH.
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Sorry, I don't do that. It's too easy to miss a call from ATC or get confused about who's saying what on which freq. The only thing I'll monitor on #2 when working with ATC is 121.5 and maybe ATIS (which is easy to keep from confusing with ATC calls).
 
Ron Levy said:
Sorry, I don't do that. It's too easy to miss a call from ATC or get confused about who's saying what on which freq. The only thing I'll monitor on #2 when working with ATC is 121.5 and maybe ATIS (which is easy to keep from confusing with ATC calls).
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Never had that problem.

Technique difference, certainly.
 
Geico266 said:
Come on now, I'm a newbie, a virgin is you will. :blowingkisses: Take it easy on me! :D
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Ya but you just brought up one of three touchy subjects.

Yousa cause-ed mabee one or twoy lettal bitty axadentes … yud-say boom da gasser, den crash Der Bosses heyblibber … den banished.



:D:D:D
 
fdorrin said:
Announce your own position and then listen. The act of announcing will prompt the replies you need from those that may be a factor.
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I certainly respect your instructorness, and I agree with your premiss about the phrase being overused. But to "ban" it is over the top. There may be circumstances where a pilot finds himself close to an airport and had the wrong freq in the radio, sees traffic, and makes the "Traffic Call". Being kicked loose from ATC and finding myself 6 miles from my home airport when I know there are sktdiving planes in the air. In this case the "offending" pilot is simply asking for other pilots to report their position due to an error on his part. By announcing his position and waiting, no one else knows he is asking for position reports from traffic in the area.

I'm not defending the over use of the phrase. Lord knows way too many pilots use it as a "I'm here, get out of my way" statement. What I'm saying is I don't use the phrase out of habit, but I have used it because I have felt a danger not knowing where other planes are after just tuning into the freq.

We may choose to disagree with the phrase, but I think we can all agree to critizise someone on the radio is WAY over the top.

JMHO
 
Geico266 said:
Just so I know, what are the other two? :confused: Let me guess, one involves a conveyor belt and an airplane?? :yes:
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Yep you got that one!!!


Number three is EdFred's pet peave. He gets his BVDs all in a scitherous bunch when it is brought up. :D:D:D


Hint: do you have a pilot certificate or a license?

BTW welcome aboard!
 
Geico, I respect your opinion, but find myself in the "Self announce and then listen, the self announce should be enough to get anyone who might conflict to speak up" camp.

Far be it from me to be a radio cop about this, but I'll go for the light hearted ribbing. A couple that seems to work well is, upon receiving an "Any traffic in the pattern, please advise" might be to respond "Traffic advises that you buy low and sell high" or "Traffic advises not taking any wooden nickels".

I've heard both.
 
smigaldi said:
Yep you got that one!!!


Number three is EdFred's pet peave. He gets his BVDs all in a scitherous bunch when it is brought up. :D:D:D


Hint: do you have a pilot certificate or a license?

BTW welcome aboard!
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You forgot one. Logging PIC vs. acting as PIC.
 
Geico266 said:
In an RV, traveling about 180MPH on decent you can eat up that remaining distance to the pattern in a matter of seconds. There are times when I make the switch and transmit my position and intentions, and ask for traffic. While I think the subject phrase may be overused, I think there are times when it is okay AFTER stating your position, altitude, and intentions.
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I think it would be ridiculous to make any phrase "forbidden", but to clarify why the ATITAPA thing is as useful on the CTAF as "what's the score?" or "have you seen so-and-so?", let me just ask you this:

When you go to the CTAF, the first thing you do is announce position and intentions, right? Do you wait until someone asks?
You update, right? "3 miles west", turning downwind", etc.? Do you wait until someone asks?


Sure, making your way to the pattern at 180 MPH (which I don't take exception to; plenty of uncontrolled fields handling jet traffic, etc... although in a RV you could slow down a hair prior to entry), you may miss someone's un-asked-for position/intention call.

But on the other hand, if the pattern is really busy and everyone is eager to respond to your ATITAPA, you will most likely just get a bunch of squealing in response.
You'll also hear calls that are not relevant, like that guy on short final. Again, this is assuming that ATITAPA is an accepted practice, like the "radio check" call. File under "be careful what you ask for"...

Looked at that way, ATITAPA seems not only unnecessary, but possibly dangerous.

If I am about to enter tha pattern, having announced, and I see traffic that I haven't heard from yet, I just work from there on the basis that I have visual contact.

Visual contact with traffic on a visual approach is all you really need. Anything else is not to be trusted entirely, although a little extra (accurate) info can be useful sometimes.

If I am unsure what they're up to, I simply announce again, maybe addressing the other aircraft directly (by type, position, and airport). This is similar to what I do if I hear them announce but can't find them where they say they are... something like "what's your position relative to the runway?" does wonders with those "Piper over the old Wilson place" calls at unfamiliar airports. :D

But I don't ask unless I already have contact of some kind and am unsure... and I ask specifically, not generally. If they don't answer, it's back to airmanship: that is, using my eyes and my head.

In short: since it is legal to fly in these patterns without 2-way comms, using your eyes and common sense are the only tools that are indespensable, not using the radio. Rely only on the radio in VMC near an uncontrolled field, and you may join the ranks of those who've died in the vast majority of midairs.
 
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Ron Levy said:
Sorry, I don't do that. It's too easy to miss a call from ATC or get confused about who's saying what on which freq. The only thing I'll monitor on #2 when working with ATC is 121.5 and maybe ATIS (which is easy to keep from confusing with ATC calls).
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Its quite simple, really.
Put one radio on the headset and the second on the speaker.
 
I don't understand this ongoing discussion. Unlike many other things in aviation, there is crystal clear guidance on this issue: Don't use this phrase.

The FAA doesn't leave room for discussion here.

Felix
 
Geico, Welcome to the board.

Having spent a fair amount of time at a non-towered airport teaching, there is no substitute for proper announcements at the appropriate points in the pattern. If a pilot won't announce on downwind, base, final and crosswind, they sure aren't going to announce when someone else asks them to.

Let me add to the above... there's no substitute to the above along with watching and also listening. "Airport advisories" can be helpful but that doesn't mean the person giving them is in a position, easily capable of seeing all potential traffic. Hence, your own eyes and ears are the most important out there.
 
fdorrin said:
The act of announcing will prompt the replies you need from those that may be a factor.
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Exactly. I was bouncing around in the pattern today, and a Cessna 414 popped on frequency 10 miles out, coming in for runway 31. I replied with "Fairmont traffic, Zodiac 55ZC left downwind runway 13, touch and go, Fairmont." He said he'd set up for left traffic for 13 as well. Worked out just fine.
 
Announce, accurately, your position and intentions. Other traffic will reveal themselves by their regular calls and, if they think that they are in position that you need extra notice, they'll tell you.

If there is enough traffic in the area that you need "special" advisories, then there is not enough free air time to waste on asking for them anyway, and the flurry of disjointed responses to the inquiry: (1) will not be coherent enough for valuable use, and (2) will disrupt the rhythm and content of routine traffic calls, thus rendering the situation less safe, not more safe.

Open for epithets...
 
Or then there's the guy in a biplane who has a radio, monitors it, but won't talk on it. Then gets POed and complains on the ground when other traffic make announcements about the biplane "without a radio." :dunno:
 
Seems most pilots here agree no more ATITAPA, including me. Maybe this would be a good time to take on the other "Big 3"?



If a plane :blueplane:is sitting on a conveyor.........:rollercoaster:................. :rofl:
 
I wish I knew the percentage of unicom transmissions I hear that are relevant to the airport to which I am enroute, and how many of them end with the airport traffic identifier. It's not a big number.

SCCutler said:
Announce, accurately, your position and intentions. Other traffic will reveal themselves by their regular calls and, if they think that they are in position that you need extra notice, they'll tell you.

If there is enough traffic in the area that you need "special" advisories, then there is not enough free air time to waste on asking for them anyway, and the flurry of disjointed responses to the inquiry: (1) will not be coherent enough for valuable use, and (2) will disrupt the rhythm and content of routine traffic calls, thus rendering the situation less safe, not more safe.

Open for epithets...
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wabower said:
I wish I knew the percentage of unicom transmissions I hear that are relevant to the airport to which I am enroute, and how many of them end with the airport traffic identifier. It's not a big number.
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...and how many of those end "<airport> traffic", not just "<airport>".
 
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