Any tips on steep turns?

Discussion in 'Pilot Training' started by Travel360, May 14, 2019.

  1. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2015
    Messages:
    6,365
    Location:
    Vail, Arizona
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Timbeck2
    You realize that the above was taken on the ground. If one uses the plains vs foothills as a horizon they'd be scraping a wing tip.
     
  2. asicer

    asicer En-Route

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2015
    Messages:
    4,010
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    asicer
    BTW, I have nothing to add regarding trim vs no trim other than if you don't trim, planting your elbow on the armrest helps with the lack of trim.
     
  3. Eric Stoltz

    Eric Stoltz Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2017
    Messages:
    669
    Location:
    PALH
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    ES
    I'll throw a few more cents into the pool here. In the perfect steep turn, the elevator doesn't move, and the bank is exactly 50 degrees, and power bumps just a bit for airspeed. Locked in, it all works great enough to hit yer own wake.

    What hasn't been supported so far, unless I didn't read everything, is what to do with one's rudder, aileron and elevator (somewhat). I don't think it has been mentioned that most aeroplanes have a tendency to overbank past 45ish degrees, and therefore opposite aileron is required. Subsequently, the rudder is needed to keep it all coordinated. Adverse yaw is increased with the opposite aileron, therefore the turn will most likely require rudder into the turn to keep it coordinated. We all can use more rudder in our lives.

    Roll into the bank, establish the *outside sight picture to establish the bank and attitude, and *lock in the elevator and opposite aileron. Mess with the trim to your hearts delight, but use some muscle and life will be simpler. Less variables and all since a bunch of time will be taken by adjusting trim instead of nailing the attitude. Since the ACS says that there is a + - 5 degrees, use that to adjust the altitude. 1 or two degrees will change the lift vector plenty to stop and reverse the altitude trend. Descending? Let up on the rudder pressure just a tad to unroll a degree or two and recapture your altitude. Remember to roll back into the established bank with rudder pressure once the altitude is regained, so as not to trend the other way. Climbing? Add a degree or two of bank to reduce the lift vector away from up and let it come down a few feet. Unroll again with reducing rudder pressure. Might need to back it up with a tad of aileron, but less than one would think.

    Change up the elevator pressure and or the aileron pressure to correct for altitude is inviting many more variables to combat and cause the WTFs. Practice steepish turns with just locking in the bank and attitude without much care for the bank angle to get a feel for this technique if you want.

    Now, before everyone freaks the hell out by saying, "using rudder will spin your plane" or whatever... Take close note that I stated rudder pressure, pressure, pressure. NOT movement. A nice trick that seems to be rare since the integration of instruments to basic flight is to lock in the elevator back pressure, and opposite aileron in the steep turn and look the f outta the plane! Think of the steep turn as a new neutral and fine tuning with rudder alone. (No, it won't get so uncoordinated that it'll spin, or even move the ball much enough to notice)

    More tricks, the decent can be heard before the altimeter starts moving by listening to the airplane start to accelerate. Opposite if it starts to climb. Also, coordination is felt in your butt, seat of the pants, and the ball will become secondary to your butt.

    Maybe just do what your CFI says. Flame suit donned.

    This aways helps:
     
  4. SToL

    SToL Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2016
    Messages:
    524
    Location:
    Bush Alaska, Colorado Rockies & Valley of the Sun
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    SToL
    ^^^^ This ^^^^

    As others have said, you should be adding power in a steep turn, and using trim helps, but the biggest problem low time students have is spending too much time inside chasing instruments. Keep your head outside, learn what the sight picture looks like, hold it and then quickly verify with alt. Don't get hung up on the VSI.

    PJ
     
    Ed Sokol and Eric Stoltz like this.
  5. BarryCooper

    BarryCooper Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2015
    Messages:
    117
    Location:
    Raymond MS
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    BarryCooper
    In a Cherokee, bank 50 w/2 cranks of trim. Sit Back and relax
     
  6. MuseChaser

    MuseChaser Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2019
    Messages:
    361
    Location:
    Central NYS
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MuseChaser
    Might be a bit low for steep turns? ;)

    In all seriousness, I can't echo the previous advice loudly enough to the OP re/ look OUTSIDE, get the sight pictures (left and right turns, as already mentioned, are different), and glance at the altimeter about 5% of the time. My turns were awful at first because i had that reversed...attitude indicator, altimeter, attitude idicator, turn coordinator, AI, VSI...oh crap, what's haopening!?,.... look outside briefly...oh, that!.?..then back to the instruments to screw up more.

    For me, steep turns were really the first step in learning how to develop and prioritize a scan for IFR training, except for a VFR steep turn, your "home base" primary instrument is the view outside your windscreen, and NOT on the panel.
     
  7. MuseChaser

    MuseChaser Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2019
    Messages:
    361
    Location:
    Central NYS
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MuseChaser
    'Twas a joke....I'll be here all week...try the veal!
     
  8. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    5,674
    Location:
    Wichita, KS
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MauleSkinner
    Minimizes the altitude deviations on the low side, anyway.
     
  9. apr911

    apr911 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2015
    Messages:
    385
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    apr911
    Shouldnt need it but that doesnt mean trim isnt entirely useless. I also dont know about you but I dont use full power in steep turns. I usually find an extra 100-200rpm translates into enough power for the steep turn. More than that and you're likely to climb or gain speed both of which are evaluated as part of the ACS and the airspeed in particular can create more problems since you'll be going faster and therefore pulling more g's, you're setting yourself up for the possibility of an accelerated stall.

    Though I recognize the value of trim, for me, I'm a no trim kind of person. Trim does work and its a lot less work while in the maneuver but you need to be prepared to manage the transition to the opposite direction and the final rollout which is going to have a greater nose-up/ballooning tendency due to the trim changg.

    You are also creating more work for yourself in the long run too. While it does take more physical effort to not use trim in the turn as you need to hold more back pressure and be more aware of altitude/airspeed but you are creating more work for yourself when the maneuver is complete. I look at steep turns (and any turn really) as an "upset" since its not straight and level, its not something I am EVER likely to maintain for an extended period so why am I going to trim for it? Especially since I spent all that time getting my airplane nicely trimmed out for a known level flight, airspeed and power setting... When the maneuver is complete, I just level the wings, reset my power and I'm right back into level flight and ready for the next maneuver.
     
    birdus and LongRoadBob like this.
  10. vsc

    vsc Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2018
    Messages:
    9
    Location:
    Midwest
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    vsc
    If you are overcorrecting gaining and losing altitude, you will get disoriented. Trust me I was there at one point. Take your time and get the aircraft slowed down, stabilized and in trim before starting the maneuver. Never get rushing into a maneuver.

    You didn't say what airplane you are training in. If you are struggling with the outside reference, perhaps because your aircraft is lacking in something like a rivet line, seam or the like (e.g. composite aircraft) you will want to glance at the attitude indicator in your scan. Definitely avoid the chasing the VSI given it lags. If you were using the VSI it explains a lot.
     
    LongRoadBob likes this.
  11. mryan75

    mryan75 Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2014
    Messages:
    859
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    mryan75
    Trim, trim, trim. And then trim some more.

    Seriously, if you're losing altitude, ease off the bank a little bit until you correct. I find a few shots of trim before rolling in helps with the.
     
  12. IK04

    IK04 Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2018
    Messages:
    1,139
    Location:
    Copperas Cove, Texas
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    LNXGUY
    Some pretty weird and incorrect advice here...

    Left and right steep turns are treated identically and the visual reference point is the same. Always trim for changes in speed, power and G loading.

    Don't overthink it...
     
  13. Dan Thomas

    Dan Thomas Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2008
    Messages:
    5,467
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Dan Thomas
    If you're on the left side of the airplane, the sight picture will be a bit different. If the cowl is a narrow affair it will be a lot different. Right turns, with the normal clockwise propeller rotation, involve more back pressure to fight the nose-down pull caused by gyroscopic precession.

    And trim is far overused. Why do some folks hate having to use a little muscle? Have we really become that lazy? I have encountered students that are endlessly fooling with the trim and their flying is sloppy. They can't seem to get the thing to settle down in any regime.
     
    Eric Stoltz likes this.
  14. IK04

    IK04 Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2018
    Messages:
    1,139
    Location:
    Copperas Cove, Texas
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    LNXGUY
    Only if you are doing it wrong. If you look anywhere except straight ahead of you, parallax will kick your butt and you will climb in left turns and descend in right turns.

    Only during a transition to a turn. In a steady-state turn precession should be negligible.

    Yes. Society has degraded to that point. Don't be lazy.

    That indicates they have not learned and are unable to correlate the fundamentals from day 1 flight training: PITCH-POWER-TRIM.
     
    LongRoadBob likes this.
  15. Dan Thomas

    Dan Thomas Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2008
    Messages:
    5,467
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Dan Thomas
    You haven't flown an inverted inline engine like I have. Even in the typical opposed-engine single the horizon cuts the cowl at two different places in left and right turns.

    Gyroscopic precession is active in any turn. The turn changes the plane of rotation of the propeller and it reacts by trying to tilt at 90 degrees to the turn force in the direction of prop rotation. Turning right is applying forward force to the left edge of the prop disc, so it reacts by acting as if we pushing forward on the top edge, pushing the nose down. A left turn does the opposite. The theory and phenomenon are well-known and as an instructor I frequently experienced and demonstrated it. Plenty here are aware of it.
     
    LongRoadBob likes this.
  16. Ed Sokol

    Ed Sokol Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2016
    Messages:
    95
    Location:
    KCRQ
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Love2Fly

    What he said.......
     
  17. Dan Thomas

    Dan Thomas Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2008
    Messages:
    5,467
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Dan Thomas
  18. Peter Light

    Peter Light Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    May 20, 2019
    Messages:
    8
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    redrocket
  19. N1120A

    N1120A Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2018
    Messages:
    602
    Location:
    AG5B MYF
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    N1120A
    That MzeroA video is pretty much dead on for a 172. For a PA28, it is 2 up on the left turn and leave it for the right. Don't change anything. On a Grumman Tiger, you probably don't need any trim, cause you already have enough up trim from slowing down to 112.

    It also really helps to just cover the panel. It is actually easier to do steep turns using visuals and sound.
     
  20. IK04

    IK04 Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2018
    Messages:
    1,139
    Location:
    Copperas Cove, Texas
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    LNXGUY
    Ed Sokol likes this.
  21. LongRoadBob

    LongRoadBob Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2016
    Messages:
    1,111
    Location:
    Oslo, Norway
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jacker
    From a student perspective, we usually aren't used to pulling that hard and far back on the yoke, and I think deep down we feel it is "wrong".

    I would mention to, maybe it is just me, but the first time I tried a 45, I was a little shocked by how far back, how much resistance, and worse...that the G forces (I know, pretty lame but wasn't used to it) had me feeling "something is wrong". It takes a little getting used to. Tensing my stomach, well...not muscles, but stomach, helps too.
     
  22. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2016
    Messages:
    4,221
    Location:
    KFAR
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Priyo
    It’s probably because their CFI told that “I am always trimming”. Well when I hear that I want to ask them “why? Didn’t you get it the first time around?”

    I get the importance of trimming and you have to adjust it when needed but if you have to fiddle with the trim wheel all day long , well you are doing it wrong. Personal preference I guess but trimming for a steep turn doesn’t makes a whole lot sense.
     
  23. Ghery

    Ghery Final Approach

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2005
    Messages:
    9,690
    Location:
    Olympia, Washington
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ghery Pettit
    Using trim is good practice. It might not be required in a 172, but fly a 182 and you will quickly learn that trim is not only your friend, it is a necessity.

    BTW, once you finish your PP check ride, don't think you are finished with 45 degree banked 360 degree turns. You'll still get asked to do them in your flight reviews (every 2 years for the FAA, annually for our club, which reminds me, I'm due next month). Don't let them get rusty.
     
  24. bluesideup

    bluesideup Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2014
    Messages:
    412
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    bluesideup
    Hi everyone.
    Trim flying is not flying, is guessing. Most pilots have no idea why, when and how to trim. There is lot to trim, and a lot more benefits exist than just relieve muscle pressure, when done correctly.
    Looking at some of these experts on videos that give advice to others should / will make most CFIs cringe. They would never pass the Commercial standards with those procedures.
    Ask pilots why they trim and most will have one response, remove muscle effort of some form or another, so every time they feel a little pressure on the yoke they trim, they are not stabilized and as a result something changes, likely the speed and they trim again, now the RPM changes, they again trim, now the altitude changes... they are at it all day.
    Learn / know your performance and how each element affects another.
    The lesson is, before you trim, stabilize, know your performance / numbers and only after that trim. In a 45 deg turn just using trim you will Not pass the commercial standards and it is Not the procedure that should be learned.
    I especially like when some "pilots" invoke the supernatural powers and tell others how to, or not to, do it. You only hope they are around long enough to learn how to do it right.
     
    Dan Thomas likes this.
  25. jesse

    jesse Administrator Management Council Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2005
    Messages:
    15,744
    Location:
    Lincoln, NE
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jesse
    Isn't that what you just did?
     
    birdus and SToL like this.
  26. SToL

    SToL Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2016
    Messages:
    524
    Location:
    Bush Alaska, Colorado Rockies & Valley of the Sun
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    SToL
    It shouldn't be.

    Elevator for airspeed/attitude. Trim for hands off.

    No guessing.
     
  27. Sazzy

    Sazzy Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2019
    Messages:
    53
    Location:
    Highland Park, IL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Sazzy
    ...I'm gonna go with the consensus I see here, as well as what I've learned from other pilots on the forums after I've asked questions regarding trim. I dont see how anyone could consider trimming to be NOT flying.

    To the OP, I have the same issue with steep turns. I'm a notorious over-corrector. I've actually been out of a Cessna for awhile and working on other things in the CTLS, but tomorrow I'm gonna be back in the 152 for the first time in about 5 months. Thank you for reminding me of something I definitely need to revisit!
     
  28. bluesideup

    bluesideup Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2014
    Messages:
    412
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    bluesideup
    Hi.
    I am assuming you are referring to >>invoke the supernatural powers<<? I was referring to another post by someone else in an earlier post.
    If that is the case I do not think it takes anything supernatural to fly a 45 deg. bank turn without trim, but others may need it.