Any Profit?

[James331]

Odd. They are great planes. I love mine. That's not to say that I think there is a chance to make a profit on this. But I think that is a result of the depressed value of all vintage, non-light sport aircraft, relative to the cost of repairs and parts.

Skywagons go for a bit, a old 182 with a so so panel and fancy new style swoosh paint job will sell for a few bucks and quick, lots of the old rag wing planes with fresh restorations sell quick, etc.


I only have a few hours in a 177RG, it just didn't handle well, didn't glide well, didn't have much payload, wasn't comfy inside and sure didn't have the speed to makeup for it's shortcomings, especially when you can buy a nice PA24 for the same or less, or go the other way and buy a 210 for a few more bucks.

How about a rental aircraft? comply with Lycomings AD, repair the boot cowl, fire wall and cowling, place it out to rent.

ROI would still be low, just get a 172 with crap paint and interior, shine it up and put that on the line. Or find a Grumman, folks love em, and it separates you from the other schools.

No one would want to rent that 177 with the butchered panel, especially for more money than the 172, with the presentable panel, sitting next to it. Plus for a flight school, they can't use it as a complex, can't use it for high performance, and with the CS prop and other 177 "features" it's surly not going to be a ab initio trainer.

 

[bnt83]

How about a rental aircraft? comply with Lycomings AD, repair the boot cowl, fire wall and cowling, place it out to rent.

Better order your metal parts from Cessna now because you probably won't see them till 2017

 

[Tom-D]

I'm not a A&P, nor did I stay on a quality in, but I'd wager you'd be at least $20k upside down in that 177 by the time you had her done to a level someone would even think about owning it.

Really what is that panel missing? a bunch of junk radios, and nav heads? Which you'd replace anyway? Salvage yards are full of AV equipment, one used GPS, and a transponder you are good to go.

 

[Tom-D]

Better order your metal parts from Cessna now because you probably won't see them till 2017

Ordering from Cessna? really dumb.

 

[Tom-D]

ROI would still be low, just get a 172 with crap paint and interior, shine it up and put that on the line. Or find a Grumman, folks love em, and it separates you from the other schools.

No one would want to rent that 177 with the butchered panel, especially for more money than the 172, with the presentable panel, sitting next to it. Plus for a flight school, they can't use it as a complex, can't use it for high performance, and with the CS prop and other 177 "features" it's surly not going to be a ab initio trainer.

With what is offered as rentals around here, I don't believe you be correct.

 

[bnt83]

Ordering from Cessna? really dumb.

Those two skins on the top of the panel are drop hammer formed and you can't get new ones. There is a hat section from the upper door hinge all the way forward where there is a nice wrinkle. The engine mount bolts to a machined fitting inside that.

 

[bnt83]

This is partially why GA is.... doomed.


GA needs talented sheet metal artists that will work for peanuts to keep the aging fleet going and to repair fairly simple wrecks.

 

[Tom-D]

Those two skins on the top of the panel are drop hammer formed and you can't get new ones. There is a hat section from the upper door hinge all the way forward where there is a nice wrinkle. The engine mount bolts to a machined fitting inside that.

Do we know they must be replaced?

the hat section is a build on site. the machined fitting probably not harmed. Air Metal Fabricators would have a new fire wall here before I could get the aircraft home.

 

[James331]

With what is offered as rentals around here, I don't believe you be correct.

$166hr for Harvey's 177RG, for a fixed gear one, if anyone would even rent it, which is a big if, you're talking a good chunk less, probably a huge chunk less

Rainier has IFR 172s for $120hr

BEFA (if you can handle the people) even less and per tach hour.

Regal (which is one of the more expensive guys) rents 172s with ether GTN touch screens, or 430Ws and even a G1000 with full AP for right around $140hr.

That 177 fixed gear, no one would want to rent it, they wouldn't want to deal with the checkout for a plane that isn't that much more plane than a 172, yet will have to rent out for way more to recoup your "investment".

Smart money is scrapping the thing out.

But hey, give it a whirl and let us know how it goes

 

[Tom-D]

This is partially why GA is.... doomed.


GA needs talented sheet metal artists that will work for peanuts to keep the aging fleet going and to repair fairly simple wrecks.

That is what many young A&Ps fail to see. there is money here. They need to realize that their time is gong to be spent doing some thing, they might as well earn $.02 per hour than nothing at all.
Cessna 150s are all getting long in the tooth, we need to find other models that can be used as trainers. Brian23 and I were talking this subject the other day, many of the students we see, take one look at the junk on the rental ramps and walk away.

 

[N747JB]

Using $15K as cost, add a rebuilt engine, avionics, plus the airframe repair, I'd say not a ton of profit in it if you have to pay for labor.
Engine $20K??
Avionics, used 430W, KX155, with indicators plus a transponder, $10-12K installed?
Prop inspection/repair? $2K?
Airframe and paint is a bit of a wild card for me, but estimate $10K.
If that's all she needs, you'd be around $57K in it, it should sell for mid-60's? maybe with freshly repaired damage??
Just my thoughts.

 

[Tom-D]

$166hr for Harvey's 177RG, for a fixed gear one, if anyone would even rent it, which is a big if, you're talking a good chunk less, probably a huge chunk less

Rainier has IFR 172s for $120hr

BEFA (if you can handle the people) even less and per tach hour.

Regal (which is one of the more expensive guys) rents 172s with ether GTN touch screens, or 430Ws and even a G1000 with full AP for right around $140hr.

That 177 fixed gear, no one would want to rent it, they wouldn't want to deal with the checkout for a plane that isn't that much more plane than a 172, yet will have to rent out for way more to recoup your "investment".

Smart money is scrapping the thing out.

But hey, give it a whirl and let us know how it goes

No one in the north sound wants to drive all the way to paine, or boeing field.

 

[PPC1052]

I only have a few hours in a 177RG, it just didn't handle well

Must have been a poorly rigged one. I think their reputation is that they handle quite well.

Plus for a flight school, they can't use it as a complex,

Why not?

Edit: Never mind-- you are talking about the FG, not the RG. My bad.

, and with the CS prop and other 177 "features" it's surly not going to be a ab initio trainer.

The CS prop is pretty simple, really. Not sure what you mean by the other "features." The biggest problem with them from a pilot's perspective was the tendency to porpoise by ham-handed over correction of the stabilator if the plane ballooned due to excess airspeed on final. The problem in the early Cardinals was addressed by retrofit under "Operation Cardinal", and the design of the latter models (including the 1978s, obviously) was changed to remove the issue.

I agree that they aren't the fastest out there, but I don't know why you think that they are not comfortable. The wide cabin with doors that swing wide open make for a comfortable ride, and there is a large area in the back for passengers or cargo, particularly on the FG models. Overall, I personally believe that the Cardinal has a lot of appeal for some people in exchange for some lack of speed. They are faster than the comparable 172s, and the RG models are not much slower than a 182, with a lower fuel consumption rate.

 

[Henning]

That is what many young A&Ps fail to see. there is money here. They need to realize that their time is gong to be spent doing some thing, they might as well earn $.02 per hour than nothing at all.
Cessna 150s are all getting long in the tooth, we need to find other models that can be used as trainers. Brian23 and I were talking this subject the other day, many of the students we see, take one look at the junk on the rental ramps and walk away.

That was AOPA's deal with their 152, and they have a point, however nobody wants to spend the money to rejuvenate the planes and modernize the panel. People walk away from the 152 trainers exactly because for the most part the fleet is dilapidated junk that needs $85k spent on it to bring it to modern spec that makes people look at it and say "Cool, neat..." Instead of "Yeesh, WTF...".

Update them to a glass deck, paint them, redo the interior, and people won't walk away.

 

[bnt83]

That is what many young A&Ps fail to see. there is money here. They need to realize that their time is gong to be spent doing some thing, they might as well earn $.02 per hour than nothing at all.
Cessna 150s are all getting long in the tooth, we need to find other models that can be used as trainers. Brian23 and I were talking this subject the other day, many of the students we see, take one look at the junk on the rental ramps and walk away.

The new sheet metal guys needed can't spend $10k, $20K, $30k in school loans. They need hand-on OJT and not paying for an education.

 

[Tom-D]

Update them to a glass deck, paint them, redo the interior, and people won't walk away.

Dream on Henning, that's not going to happen when the new designs are the same money.

 

[PPC1052]

Dream on Henning, that's not going to happen when the new designs are the same money.

Are they? I though comparable four seaters are coming in at 400k plus. Can't you update the panel, interior, and paint on a 30-50k used four seater for less than 350k?

 

[bnt83]

Plus, sheet metal is hard work. Need contortionists to reach crap and get the job done.

 

[docmirror]

I've been following along, cuz I like to repair or rebuild stuff thinking I will make some money on it. Since I know jack squat about Cessnas I have no opinion on the making of money on this plane.

But - as a certified investor, and long time fan of efficient markets I can fairly say this about an unforced sale of assets.

Seller: "Man, I sure am glad we moved that flaming turd."

Buyer: "Oh boy! I'm going to make a killing once I flip this after paint and interior."

For each transaction both parties think they got the best deal. That's why there is an efficient market(don't start with the 'therefore' crap), and why goods and services are bought and sold.

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming; 'as the prop turns' (say, what happened to that segment anyway?)

 

[James331]

No one in the north sound wants to drive all the way to paine, or boeing field.

BFI or RNT, You got BEFA and Rainier, both I mentioned, both have a fleet that the fixed up 177 won't be able to compete with.


Look, if that 177 was a RG, you might have a chance, it could be used for all the complex requirements, CPL, etc, plus you'd get a few renters who get a kick out of swinging gear. But a fixed gear 177, I really think you could do way better.

There are tons of folks up there who are really interested in backcountry flying and float ops, fix up a plane that can meet that mission, find a experienced CFI and you'll have tons of business. Plus you won't have to worry about fancy avionics.

 

[DaveA]

There are tons of folks up there who are really interested in backcountry flying and float ops, fix up a plane that can meet that mission, find a experienced CFI and you'll have tons of business. Plus you won't have to worry about fancy avionics.

Sorry if this is a thread jack...Once checked out in the float or backcountry trainer, how available is insurance for the rental pilot to rent the same plane? Is this the sticky wicket that might make this business model unattractive or unsustainable? Or would such a rental pilot be restricted to on-airport ops only?

BTW I've been to Timberlake/Person Co airport many times - a friend sold his corroded Mouseketeer he parked there for years to White Ind I think. I wanted to buy it & replace the bad wing but they offered more $$ & parted it. Too bad...once it was repaired the market value was break even, if I got it for what I was willing to put in it...I wasn't going down that gopher hole for anything more.

 

[Henning]

Dream on Henning, that's not going to happen when the new designs are the same money.

it's still cheaper to update the old ones, and if there's one thing about pilots, they are cheap.

 

[Tom-D]

BFI or RNT, You got BEFA and Rainier, both I mentioned, both have a fleet that the fixed up 177 won't be able to compete with.


Look, if that 177 was a RG, you might have a chance, it could be used for all the complex requirements, CPL, etc, plus you'd get a few renters who get a kick out of swinging gear. But a fixed gear 177, I really think you could do way better.

There are tons of folks up there who are really interested in backcountry flying and float ops, fix up a plane that can meet that mission, find a experienced CFI and you'll have tons of business. Plus you won't have to worry about fancy avionics.

I don't know a single NAVY pilot who flys GA that will drive that far to rent anything. I know two 5 way partnerships that fly their aircraft 3-400 hours per year.
Seattle isn't even in the same market.

 

[KyleT]

I wonder how much firewall damage was pre existing? Can't see pics but I recall it being a pretty nose heavy plane compared to the 172. So people jump in and bonk them.

I view the 177 in the same boat as the aero commander Lark. It tried to be a 172 but wasn't and no one wants it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[James331]

I don't know a single NAVY pilot who flys GA that will drive that far to rent anything. I know two 5 way partnerships that fly their aircraft 3-400 hours per year.
Seattle isn't even in the same market.

NAVY?

Unless you can take GI bill bennies, not the demographic I would target in that area

I'd go after the money, offer something diffrent and get all the Boeing, Google, MS, Adobe, etc types.

 

[Tom-D]

NAVY?

Unless you can take GI bill bennies, not the demographic I would target in that area

I'd go after the money, offer something diffrent and get all the Boeing, Google, MS, Adobe, etc types.

Many of our navy pilots also fly GA already. there is no VA money involved. also there are enlisted sailors that would rent a decent aircraft.
But they won't drive to Seattle to do it.