Another pilot flying my son

ChiefPilot

ChiefPilot

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ChiefPilot
So question for the larger group - how do you assess the abilities of a potentially low-time pilot to fly a family member around in a Cessna 172?

The situation isn't quite as generic as that perhaps - my son is in a CAP squadron and has the opportunity to go for an "O-flight". One of the squadrons pilots was just not someone I'd feel comfortable flying with, let alone my son, after talking with him on-and-off over the course of the last year. I've not met this other pilot however and my son *really* wants to go. I'll have 20 minutes to meet the individual and in which to make a go/no-go decision.

I'm not exactly Chuck Jagger, but I far exceed the flight experience required to be a CAP mission pilot which are pretty light at 200hrs PIC, 50 X/C.

Anyone else been in a similar situation? Anyone have any thoughts to share?
 
Only thought I have is who is Chuck Jagger? Some relation to Mick? Pretty shallow, hunh?
 
Just to be fair, there are very few commercial pilots and even fewer private pilots that I would allow my mom to ride with...
 
Clark1961 said:
Only thought I have is who is Chuck Jagger? Some relation to Mick? Pretty shallow, hunh?
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I have a friend who refers to hotshot pilots as "Chuck Jagger", apparently mixing up Chuck Yeager and Mick Jagger. It's kind of caught on around the home drome and I apparently use it without even thinking about it :)
 
Yeah, that’s a tough spot to be in. When I first earned my certificate at the age of 17, I felt humbled that others felt comfortable enough to fly with me. Five years later and I feel 3 times the Pilot I was then, but I’m still a pee-on.

Talk to others who know this pilot in question and get their feeling toward him. Make a gut call and leave it at that.
 
Ryanb said:
Yeah, that’s a tough spot to be in. When I first earned my certificate at the age of 17, I felt humbled that others felt comfortable enough to fly with me. Five years later and I feel 3 times the Pilot I was then, but I’m still a pee-on.
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Hopefully it didn't show too much, but I was sizing you up during pre-flight, and watching you very closely on departure and early in that flight to GMU. You did fine, but my wife thought I was thoroughly nuts to get in a plane with such a young pilot Lol.
 
First, understand that no one in CAP is allowed to fly under CAP rules without a ground (oral) exam, a written test that is specific to our aircraft, and a flight test by a senior CAP check pilot, similar to PPL. You just can't say you're a pilot and go.

Second, if you have any reservations, contact the CAP squadron leader or whoever is in charge of the Orides and talk with them, express your concerns and see if there are other pilots.

Third, explain to you son that you have concerns for his safety and work with him to make a decision. CAP has a specific flight plan for Orides, I can send it to you (PM me). It's not just takeoff and punch holes.

Around here, we run 3-5 pilots, depending on how many airplane we have available at the time when we run a Saturday Oride "festival" as I call it. Ground school then flying. Plus we teach ground handling at the same time.

Yes, there are local CAP pilots I refuse to fly with, but I've never questioned their competency (other reasons). But again, out here most of our pilots far exceed the minimums by hundreds if not thousands of hours.
 
It is 200 hrs to fly cadets. 100 is to just transport airplanes from place to place by yourself.

Try not to be a helicopter parent. Every CAP pilot has a FAA level checkride every year. There is a very high focus on safety, it is one of the reasons CAP has an accident rate around 1.2/100,000 hours. To be honest, he is probably closer to PTS standards than we are. Going by statistics, your son is safer flying with a CAP pilot than with you.

However if you sincerely feel uncomfortable with this guy, talk to someone higher up and express your concerns. It may mean rescheduling with a different pilot on a different date.
 
paflyer said:
1) Actually it's only 100 hrs PIC. I was surprised it's that low. But, I was flying family members on my own with less time than that.

http://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/how_to_join/pilots_faq/?&show=faq&faqID=163

2) What are these particular pilots' specs?
3) What makes you uncomfortable re the first pilot?
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1) Sorry, I was looking at the search/rescue mission reqs which want 200hrs. You're right.
2) Don't know yet - haven't met them.
3) The first pilot said so many off-the-wall things about flying that made me wince. Instrument approaches being flown with a "ball and string", for example. Or watching a PC-12 on final approach and hearing him say that it's coming in too fast and too low when, to my eye (ATP etc), they were on a nice stable 3º glideslope and indeed watching him touchdown in the TDZ. Or stalling when turning downwind, etc.
 
murphey said:
First, understand that no one in CAP is allowed to fly under CAP rules without a ground (oral) exam, a written test that is specific to our aircraft, and a flight test by a senior CAP check pilot, similar to PPL. You just can't say you're a pilot and go.
...
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Oh well hold the press, the guy passed a written test and flew around the patch with another CAPie lol








But legit, to the OP, how many hours did you have when you flew your kid for the first time?


Personally, the chance the guy crashes a super simple to fly Cessna is pretty damn low, your kid your call, ether let him go up with them or tell him right now you don't think it's safe and no, this whole judging someone's flying skills from quick meet and greet is laughable.

I wouldn't let them fly with my kid, unless he REALLY wanted to go up, not for "safety" but because I find the CAP highly annoying.
 
Now that CAP quals and other comments on experience have been made can we get to the important questions?
Has your son ever been in a Turkish prison? Does he like gladiator movies?
 
eman1200 said:
if you can't get no satisfaction flying with this kid, maybe find someone else with faraway eyes, say "please allow me to introduce myself" and be on your way.
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FTFY - but I ain't yer beast of burden
 
Bill Jennings said:
Hopefully it didn't show too much, but I was sizing you up during pre-flight, and watching you very closely on departure and early in that flight to GMU. You did fine, but my wife thought I was thoroughly nuts to get in a plane with such a young pilot Lol.
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I knew you were and as I mentioned, I welcomed the advice along the way after I made a few boo-boo’s. I think I might've felt a little edgy at first, trying to get everything just right while flying with a new pilot.
 
eman1200 said:
if you can't get no satisfaction flying with this kid, maybe find someone else, say "please allow me to introduce myself" and be on your way.
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That may work. On the other hand he could find that he can’t always get what he wants if he’s waiting on a friend.
 
Sam D said:
That may work. On the other hand he could find that he can’t always get what he wants if he’s waiting on a friend.
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man, all this chitter-chatter, chitter-chatter, chitter-chatter 'bout Shmatta, shmatta, shmatta............
 
James331 said:
But legit, to the OP, how many hours did you have when you flew your kid for the first time?
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Fair question. It was late 2003 when I had >500hrs, commercial/multi/instrument, acro, etc.
 
ChiefPilot said:
Fair question. It was late 2003 when I had >500hrs, commercial/multi/instrument, acro, etc.
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No put down here, but you really waited until you were nearing 500hrs with a CPL, MEL and IR before you flew your kids?
 
ChiefPilot said:
Fair question. It was late 2003 when I had >500hrs, commercial/multi/instrument, acro, etc.
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So you were quite low time as well.

Like I said, I really wouldn't worry about it from a safety standpoint, I know people are genetically rigged to be protective of their crotch fruit, but there are a zillion other things more likely to kill your kid.
 
paflyer said:
1) Actually it's only 100 hrs PIC. I was surprised it's that low. But, I was flying family members on my own with less time than that.

http://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/how_to_join/pilots_faq/?&show=faq&faqID=163

2) What are these particular pilots' specs?
3) What makes you uncomfortable re the first pilot?
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100 hours for Transport Mission Pilot. SAR Mission Pilots are 200 hours PIC plus quite a bit of low-altitude training. O-Ride pilots have to have more time than that. I realize it's still relatively low time to many but there is a distinction...

Generally, when CAP pilots are referred to as Mission Pilots it's not the Transport Mission Pilot variety.
 
jordane93 said:
I had 60 hours and was 17 years old when I took my mom up:eek::eek:. I had ~1500 hours and was 22 when I flew 50 people in an RJ:eek::eek:. It really doesn’t matter what any of us say. If you’re not comfortable with another pilot taking your son up, that’s it.
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I had zero hours when I took my first instructor for a ride...
 
ChiefPilot said:
I started flying four years before he came along.
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500hrs over 4 years is like 10hrs a month, I'd say the average CAP person I have come across has at or above 500 and probably flys more than 10hrs. a month.
 
James331 said:
500hrs over 4 years is like 10hrs a month, I'd say the average CAP person I have come across has at or above 500 and probably flys more than 10hrs. a month.
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Maybe. But my limited experience thus far is that there are some real stinkers in there as well, such as the downwind-turn dude that believes that instrument approaches are flown somehow with a "ball and string".

The average CAP person I've come across has no aerobatics experience, has little experience other than flying a C-172 or maybe C-182 around on practice missions, and lacks the extras that suggest competency such as a commercial ticket, a tailwheel endorsement, and instrument rating, or similar. There are absolutely exceptions, I'm sure - I just haven't met any of them yet.
 
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So someone who doesn't graduate out of a 182, doesn't do acrobatics or never gets a commercial rating is a stinky pilot?

I think that is what I just read.
 
bflynn said:
So someone who doesn't graduate out of a 172, doesn't do acrobatics and never gets a commercial rating is a stinky pilot?

I think that is what I just read.
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My response was to James' post. It is not and was not intended as a general statement. I edited the post to be more clear.

Also, if it was a private pilot that I had never flown with, the answer would simply be a flat out "NO". Since there is some structure within CAP, I'm very open to exploring it. They have a reasonable safety record - it's just the one pilot in this squadron whom I've met thus far was, indeed, a stinker.
 
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ChiefPilot said:
Maybe. But my limited experience thus far is that there are some real stinkers in there as well, such as the downwind-turn dude that believes that instrument approaches are flown somehow with a "ball and string".

The average CAP person I've come across has no aerobatics experience, has little experience other than flying a C-172 or maybe C-182 around on practice missions, and lacks the extras that suggest competency such as a commercial ticket, a tailwheel endorsement, and instrument rating, or similar. There are absolutely exceptions, I'm sure - I just haven't met any of them yet.
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Lol, aerobatic experience, tailwheel, all that's fine and dandy, but at 500hrs there is a reason you'd be lucky to get a job flying skydivers in a 182, and with such limited experience and only flying 10hrs a month, that's not very high time or, more over and more importantly, current.

As I recall this is a CAP VMC/VFR non aerobatic flight in a trike gear 172, so there's that.

I'm not a fan of CAP, but it seems like your concerns are unwarranted and ego is quite large, and that's coming from someone with a rather large ego himself lol


Like I said, if you don't want your kid to fly with them, don't let him fly with them, but to judge someone's flight experience from a quick meet and greet, that's silly and also leads me to question your aviation experience, I mean from a quick meet and greet you'll probably get about as much as reading his tea leaves. And again, short hop in VMC in a trike Cessna, not low level flying through canyons in minim visibility.
 
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I'm sorry guys, but I'd never let my kid fly with someone I haven't flown with ... only going with "gee, I heard great things about that guy" from others.

Wanted a feel for an RV-6 and RV6A years ago. Flew with a CFI that owns the RV-6 and it was awesome (El Paso to Fabens). My RV buddy arranged a "different" pilot for the return to El Paso that I never met, but was told "he's a great guy".:confused:

Short of it, this guy tells me he likes to approach high, fast and use some runway. We were higher than the VOR MDA near the threshold at 100 MPH, he chopped it down and the smell of brakes was so awful I was sure one had to be on fire trying to stop. Like the old chap in Indiana Jones: "Choose wisely".
 
James331 said:
I'm not a fan of CAP, but it seems like your concerns are unwarranted and ego is quite large, and that's coming from someone with a rather large ego himself lol

Like I said, if you don't want your kid to fly with them, don't let him fly with them, but to judge someone's flight experience from a quick meet and greet, that's silly and also leads me to question your aviation experience, I mean from a quick meet and greet you'll probably get about as much as reading his tea leaves. And again, short hop in VMC in a trike Cessna, not low level flying through canyons in minim visibility.
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You're probably right. And your ego is, in comparison, quite tiny :)
 
ChiefPilot said:
Maybe. But my limited experience thus far is that there are some real stinkers in there as well, such as the downwind-turn dude that believes that instrument approaches are flown somehow with a "ball and string".

The average CAP person I've come across has no aerobatics experience, has little experience other than flying a C-172 or maybe C-182 around on practice missions, and lacks the extras that suggest competency such as a commercial ticket, a tailwheel endorsement, and instrument rating, or similar. There are absolutely exceptions, I'm sure - I just haven't met any of them yet.
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Let me invite you to Colorado and meet many of the CAP pilots. These are retired USAF/USN, commercial (United & American), many have built their own RVs, yada yada yada. Not only do we fly the C182, but also a Gippsland G8 (which I despise riding in because the seats are ungawdly horrible to sit in for more than 10 minutes). [Last I heard we might be getting a 206 out here due to altitude and DA in the summer.

Disclaimer: I'm not a CAP pilot altho I could be if I wanted to get checked out in the C182 but I'm happy being in the back seat of the C182 and flying my own cherokee. Hence I'm not part of the "CAP Flying Club" as some rudely describe CAP.
 
murphey said:
Let me invite you to Colorado and meet many of the CAP pilots. These are retired USAF/USN, commercial (United & American), many have built their own RVs, yada yada yada. Not only do we fly the C182, but also a Gippsland G8 (which I despise riding in because the seats are ungawdly horrible to sit in for more than 10 minutes). [Last I heard we might be getting a 206 out here due to altitude and DA in the summer.
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Sounds like a good outfit. Better than the local one that I have learned has taxied their Cessna into a hangar not once but twice.
 
ChiefPilot said:
The average CAP person I've come across has no aerobatics experience, has little experience other than flying a C-172 or maybe C-182 around on practice missions, and lacks the extras that suggest competency such as a commercial ticket, a tailwheel endorsement, and instrument rating, or similar. .
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I fail to see how a commercial, tailwheel, or acro make you a "competent" pilot, or lack of same makes you less than competent.
 
bflynn said:
Try not to be a helicopter parent. Every CAP pilot has a FAA level checkride every year. There is a very high focus on safety, it is one of the reasons CAP has an accident rate around 1.2/100,000 hours. To be honest, he is probably closer to PTS standards than we are. Going by statistics, your son is safer flying with a CAP pilot than with you.
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I wouldn't be so quick to believe that a CAP pilot is any better than the average pilot. Having given a fair amount of instruction to both CAP and non-CAP pilots, I can't really tell any difference in their flying abilities or knowledge. There are good and mediocre pilots in both groups.

James331 said:
Personally, the chance the guy crashes a super simple to fly Cessna is pretty damn low, your kid your call, ether let him go up with them or tell him right now you don't think it's safe and no, this whole judging someone's flying skills from quick meet and greet is laughable.
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I agree. It is unlikely that even the worst pilot on the CAP roster will cause an accident. My level of concern would be minimal for the flight.

If anything, I'd be more concerned with some of the young eagles pilots and the airplanes they give rides in...
 
mondtster said:
I wouldn't be so quick to believe that a CAP pilot is any better than the average pilot. Having given a fair amount of instruction to both CAP and non-CAP pilots, I can't really tell any difference in their flying abilities or knowledge. There are good and mediocre pilots in both groups.



I agree. It is unlikely that even the worst pilot on the CAP roster will cause an accident. My level of concern would be minimal for the flight.

If anything, I'd be more concerned with some of the young eagles pilots and the airplanes they give rides in...
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I wouldn't even be worried about that.

Chances are poor breeding, diet, or failure to pass on good common sense and life lessons are far more likely to lead to your offsprings demise.
 
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