Another pilot arrested for nothing

[wickedsprint]

Investigate <> arrest.

Go ahead, investigate your brains out. Just don't expect help from me. And, barring that help, don't expect to make that your PC for the arrest. It sounds patently stupid: 'He was arrested cause he wouldn't answer my questions about him, his plane, or the landing/crash.'

So?

I don't agree that he *should* have been arrested.

I'm just explaining how it could be articulated from a legal standpoint for those who questioned the legality of it.

The burden of proof required to achieve probable cause is significantly below that required for conviction.

 

[nddons]

And EVERY one of those APC's are paid for from grants given to the local police from DHS..... They pay for the toys and the locals are forever obligated to kiss their asses...

This will NEVER turn out ok...

I fear you are 100% correct.

 

[nddons]

People hate cops and believe we all violate civil rights, work by quota, are not of moral turpitude, beat people for no reason, mess with people for no reason etc. these are usually the "I know my rights" type and have no clue, or not as much as they think they know. These people then pass their prejudice to the children and then the kids give nasty looks and think the same way as their parents.

From my perspective, the increasing distrust of law enforcement is a relatively new phenomenon. Clinton's 1994 COPS program (hire 100,000 new cops) inextricably linked local law enforcement with federal money and federal oversight.

I've since seen the "local" part become diminished. Follow that with the militarization of LOCAL law enforcement since the DHS behemoth came about (thank for nothin', George), and something very odd and scary is happening.

 

[docmirror]

I don't agree that he *should* have been arrested.

I'm just explaining how it could be articulated from a legal standpoint for those who questioned the legality of it.

The burden of proof required to achieve probable cause is significantly below that required for conviction.

I'm not sure we read the same article. This is a literal quote from the sherriff:
“The(sic) asked him some basic questions, and he refused to answer,” Gjesdal said. “They warned him several times that he would be arrested if he didn’t cooperate.”

Now, what were the basic questions? If the pilot produced his pilot license, that's it, job done. I guess if he refused to show his pilot license that could be maybe enough.

 

[denverpilot]

Your SSN is displayed when your license is run.

I can almost guarantee this is not true in most jurisdictions for various technical reasons, but I can easily get that confirmed for at least three jurisdictions locally if you'd like.

There is no need nor point of displaying an SSN unless your particular State is still dumb enough (and opening themselves up to huge liability... are the vehicle data terminals encrypted over the air?) to use SSN as driver's license numbers.

Sane States moved away from that at least a decade ago or more.

 

[clear_prop]

The pilot should have followed this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj0mtxXEGE8

 

[txflyer]

What was that douchebag's problem not telling the Sheriff his name?

Around here, they might have kicked his ass. Then arrested him.

Confirmation #99 to me that pilots come in two flavors. Great guys and sphincters.

 

[mikea]

So the guy landed off, cops show up to "investigate" not that they have the expertise to know what they are even looking at, the guy presets his license, says he doesn't want to talk to them and is arrested?!

WHAT? 9/11!!! Guy just ATTACKED A FIELD! How can we sure? Could have had a ton of explosives ya know!

 

[NineThreeKilo]

What was that douchebag's problem not telling the Sheriff his name?

Around here, they might have kicked his ass. Then arrested him.

Confirmation #99 to me that pilots come in two flavors. Great guys and sphincters.

Son... are you a communist?

 

[denverpilot]

What was that douchebag's problem not telling the Sheriff his name?

Around here, they might have kicked his ass. Then arrested him.

Confirmation #99 to me that pilots come in two flavors. Great guys and sphincters.

Last I checked, being a sphincter didn't used to be enough probably cause for an arrest by law enforcement.

That apparently has changed over the years.

Of course, so has the consequences of an arrest on anyone's record. Listening to my parents talk, there hadn't been anyone on either side of the family who wasn't arrested for something stupid, sometime.

The difference was, back then it was only between you and the small town cops who knew you were utterly harmless because they knew you personally.

Step forward to today where a cop three States from your home might only see the fake charges a DA offered in a plea deal that you took -- only to avoid personal bankruptcy, on their little screen in their patrol car, and they might draw a firearm and plaster you face down for their own safety, thinking you're some kind of threat to them.

Or for the lighter side, Ron White's "Tater Salad"... That's right... You got me. You caught the Tater!

It really has become ridiculous how much we rely on computers to tell us "the truth".

Government has slowly become too impersonal, too far detached from the local area, and too based off of the so called "power" of databases. Not to mention, ungodly expensive for very weak results almost across the board.

Case in point: Martha King. That crazy drug-running 70+ year old! Because an anonymous Law Enforcement database in New Mexico, said so.

 

[txflyer]

Son... are you a communist?

I'm certainly not your son. What kind of queer question is that anyway?

Just whip out your driver's license and pilot's license, tell the cop you landed your glider there, just because that's what glider pilots do, and if you don't act like a leftist professor snob foreigner lawyer douchebag, he'll probably have a laugh with you, and let you be on your way...

I don't get the whole story and this whole angle to act like a mime if a cop asks you who the hell you are....the whole angle of this thread obviously...

 

[NineThreeKilo]

I'm certainly not your son. What kind of queer question is that anyway?

Just whip out your driver's license and pilot's license, tell the cop you landed your glider there, just because that's what glider pilots do, and if you don't act like a leftist professor snob foreigner lawyer douchebag, he'll probably have a laugh with you, and let you be on your way...

I don't get the whole story and this whole angle to act like a mime if a cop asks you who the hell you are....the whole angle of this thread obviously...

So are you a commie?

Your line of thought, in capitulate to anything a government representative asks you do, sure seems like something one with communist values, or someone living in a communist state, would agree with.

 

[txflyer]

So are you a commie?

Your line of thought, in capitulate to anything a government representative asks you do, sure seems like something one with communist values, or someone living in a communist state, would agree with.

So are you a terrorist?

Your line of thought to resist every attempt by a government representative sure seems like something one with terrorist values, or living in a terrorist State, would agree with.

I can do this all day long buddy.

 

[bflynn]

Investigate <> arrest.

Go ahead, investigate your brains out. Just don't expect help from me. And, barring that help, don't expect to make that your PC for the arrest. It sounds patently stupid: 'He was arrested cause he wouldn't answer my questions about him, his plane, or the landing/crash.'

So?

Roughly 25 states have "stop and identify" laws. Washington is not one of them. The rules vary from state to state, but you cannot be required to do more than provide your name, address and a simple statement of your activities. According to the Supreme Court, identification of who you are is not unreasonable, nor is that covered by Miranda.

Police are stretching now by using the obstruction charge to say that you not providing your identification impairs their ability to work, even in states which have no law requiring identification.

I think in this case, providing your name, address and the statement that you were flying a glider and ran out of wind would have been sufficient and might have resulted in an offer to get a lift back to town. After that you can start refusing to incriminate yourself.

 

[ClimbnSink]

Here in MA it is a traffic violation to run out of gas driving a car. A cop hopped up on laws like that could been looking to bust the guy for running out of wind. No one is innocent in new america. Still all of you 'just lick the cops boots til they leave you alone' folks are gay.

 

[JHW]

What was that douchebag's problem not telling the Sheriff his name?

Around here, they might have kicked his ass. Then arrested him.

Confirmation #99 to me that pilots come in two flavors. Great guys and sphincters.

you have to consider his background. assuming he's middle aged, he grew up behind the iron curtain. That should give anyone a healthy fear of the police.

 

[cavmedic]

Maybe they profiled him if he had an accent. He was originally from the Czech Republic.


Sent from my iPhone
using Tapatalk

 

[Fearless Tower]

Here in MA it is a traffic violation to run out of gas driving a car. A cop hopped up on laws like that could been looking to bust the guy for running out of wind. No one is innocent in new america. Still all of you 'just lick the cops boots til they leave you alone' folks are gay.

You call people who don't agree with your 'the Man is going to get us all' BS gay???

You sound like some high school kid...back in the 1980's.

Wow, just wow. You don't have issues....you have lifetime subscriptions.

 

[Graueradler]

Or for the lighter side, Ron White's "Tater Salad"... That's right... You got me. You caught the Tater!

Don't now anything about Ron White but there is a little bi-lingual irony here.

In German "Tat" means "deed" so the "Tater" (with dots over the "a") means the "doer" and is commonly used to mean perpetrator.

 

[wickedsprint]

Yes hello, police, my fence has been cut and there are ruts going across my wheat field out to the street."

"Sorry sir, an airplane landed on your property and he said he needed to go get his truck to remove it. Your fence was locked."

No biggie, whats his contact info?

"Sorry Mr. farmer, we were not 100% sure beyond a reasonable doubt that he was breaking the law...we even checked the Pilots of America forums. Their members assured us we were communists for even asking for his ID. Therefore we could not compel him to produce any form of contact information for you to settle your property damage. Have a nice day."

 

[wickedsprint]

I'm not sure we read the same article. This is a literal quote from the sherriff:
“The(sic) asked him some basic questions, and he refused to answer,” Gjesdal said. “They warned him several times that he would be arrested if he didn’t cooperate.”

Now, what were the basic questions? If the pilot produced his pilot license, that's it, job done. I guess if he refused to show his pilot license that could be maybe enough.

My impression is that they found his license after the arrest. All prisoner property gets inventoried.

 

[ClimbnSink]

Yes hello, police, my fence has been cut and there are ruts going across my wheat field out to the street."

"Sorry sir, an airplane landed on your property and he said he needed to go get his truck to remove it. Your fence was locked."

No biggie, whats his contact info?

"Sorry Mr. farmer, we were not 100% sure beyond a reasonable doubt that he was breaking the law...we even checked the Pilots of America forums. Their members assured us we were communists for even asking for his ID. Therefore we could not compel him to produce any form of contact information for you to settle your property damage. Have a nice day."

'He was flying without a flight plan, we were not 100% sure beyond a reasonable doubt that he was not a terrorist, so we gave him a pavement sandwich while the rest of the tac team sat in our APCs and ran his license.'
Sounds like hyperbole but is has already happened, more then once. No worries whoever is next will be tossed aside as an exception or we will tell ourselves they deserved it because they probably acted like a jerk.

 

[N801BH]

Yes hello, police, my fence has been cut and there are ruts going across my wheat field out to the street."

"Sorry sir, an airplane landed on your property and he said he needed to go get his truck to remove it. Your fence was locked."

No biggie, whats his contact info?

"Sorry Mr. farmer, we were not 100% sure beyond a reasonable doubt that he was breaking the law...we even checked the Pilots of America forums. Their members assured us we were communists for even asking for his ID. Therefore we could not compel him to produce any form of contact information for you to settle your property damage. Have a nice day."

Don't gliders have N numbers displayed on them ?

 

[NoHeat]

Stop and identify:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and_identify_statutes

Excerpts:

“Stop and identify” statutes are laws in the United States that allow police[1] to detain persons and request such persons to identify themselves, and arrest them if they do not.

In the United States, interactions between police and citizens fall into three general categories: consensual (“contact” or “conversation”), detention (often called a Terry stop, after Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1 (1968)), or arrest. “Stop and identify” laws pertain to detentions.

States with “stop and identify” laws
AlabamaAla. Code §15-5-30
ArizonaAri. Rev. Stat. Tit. 13, §2412 (enacted 2005)
ArkansasArk. Code Ann. §5-71-213(a)(1) (loitering)
ColoradoColo. Rev. Stat. §16-3-103(1)
DelawareDel. Code Ann., Tit. 11, §§1902, 1321(6)
FloridaFla. Stat. §901.151 (Stop and Frisk Law); §856.021(2) (loitering and prowling)
GeorgiaGa. Code Ann. §16-11-36(b) (loitering)
IllinoisIll. Comp. Stat., ch. 725, §5/107-14
IndianaIndiana Code §34-28-5-3.5
KansasKan. Stat. Ann. §22-2402(1)
LouisianaLa. Code Crim. Proc. Ann., Art. 215.1(A); La. Rev. Stat. 14:108(B)(1)(c)
MissouriMo. Rev. Stat. §84.710(2)
MontanaMont. Code Ann. §46-5-401
NebraskaNeb. Rev. Stat. §29-829
NevadaNev. Rev. Stat. §171.123
New HampshireN.H. Rev. Stat. Ann. §594:2, §644:6
New MexicoN.M. Stat. Ann. §30-22-3
New YorkN.Y. Crim. Proc. Law §140.50
North DakotaN.D. Cent. Code §29-29-21 (PDF)
OhioOhio Rev. Code §2921.29 (enacted 2006)
Rhode IslandR.I. Gen. Laws §12-7-1
TexasTexas Penal Code §38.02(a)(b)
UtahUtah Code Ann. §77-7-15
VermontVt. Stat. Ann., Tit. 24, §1983
WisconsinWis. Stat. §968.24

 

[tonycondon]

Don't gliders have N numbers displayed on them ?

as long as they don't fit in the ultralight definition, of course.

 

[DeeG]

Gotta love the WW. If only you all could read the deputies report like I did. ~sigh~

 

[EdFred]

Gotta love the WW. If only you all could read the deputies report like I did. ~sigh~

So what pertinent information is in the report that we don't get to see in the article?

 

[DeeG]

So what pertinent information is in the report that we don't get to see in the article?

The events detailing why he was detained. BTW, he was not taken to jail. And I don't think the WW even bothered to request a copy of it. They go off what's in the media report that is faxed out every morning. All it has is the bare bones info that we dispatchers get from who ever called it in. The deputies report is separate from that.

 

[DeeG]

Here's what I see:

A report comes in of a plane down.

An officer is dispatched. Now those of you not familiar with the West might not realize that out here a County Sheriff's AO might be split up into patrols of several hundred square miles per Deputy (Chelan County where this occurred is 2,992 sq. miles which is larger than the State of Delaware) The Deputy arrives determines there is no real emergency and just wants to get the info he needs to file his report and get back to more important matters and continue his patrol.

He finds a individual who refuses to even speak with him. That is obstruction of his duty. He is required to find out what happened and who was involved even if it is obvious no damage was done and no crime has been committed. But he has no way of knowing that since the only other person there will not cooperate.

This pilot is indeed a jerk.

The only correction is that this occurred in Douglas County. Up on Fancher Heights right about where Pangborn landed Miss Veedol after the transpacific flight all them years ago.

 

[EdFred]

I figured that. I was wondering what those details might actually be.

 

[DeeG]

I figured that. I was wondering what those details might actually be.

you can call 509-663-9911 and asked to be transfered to DCSO records and you can request a copy of the report. Because I'm a dispatcher and not a minion of Sheriff Harv, I'm not allowed to give out info.

 

[bflynn]

He finds a individual who refuses to even speak with him. That is obstruction of his duty. He is required to find out what happened and who was involved even if it is obvious no damage was done and no crime has been committed.

IS he required to find out who was involved? What compels him to put names down for a non-crime?

 

[EdFred]

you can call 509-663-9911 and asked to be transfered to DCSO records and you can request a copy of the report. Because I'm a dispatcher and not a minion of Sheriff Harv, I'm not allowed to give out info.

Hence the smilie in my post, I already knew the answer you were going to give.

 

[tonycondon]

last time i landed out with police involved, it was Levi the sheriffs deputy. I was pretty glad that he showed up since he was friends with marge, the 80+ yr old lady who lived in the house and wasn't too interested in opening the door to some strange guy who just appeared out of nowhere at her farmhouse. He did ask for my ID which I gave him after asking why he needed it. Just standard procedure for him and mostly probably because he didn't know what else to do. I guess now I know that Kansas has that ID law so i suppose its a good thing i gave it to him so i didn't get put in the slammer.

Levi had good timing though as he got there right before my crew and drove one of Marge's tractors out in the field to get the glider. He even helped de-rig and stayed there until we were on the road back home.

I think there are about 2000 people who live in that county, not a lot going on, and they had had an airplane crash about a month before that so he was a little worried to start with.

On my landout in Genoa, CO a few weeks ago the local who stopped by called the sheriff's deputy to let him know that there hadn't been a crash.

I've been tempted at times to just pre-emptively call 911 after landing in a field, especially if close to civilization, just to avoid any undue excitement. But I also prefer to avoid any unwanted attention too so I haven't started doing that yet. It's been a few years before I've had to tell a police officer to call off the ambulance and fire dept.

 

[livitup]

Stop and identify:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and_identify_statutes

Excerpts:

“Stop and identify” statutes are laws in the United States that allow police[1] to detain persons and request such persons to identify themselves, and arrest them if they do not.

Somewhere around page 3, when all this was being debated, I was going to look up the same thing. Without knowing that WA didn't have a S&ID law, I knew it after reading the article, because if it did, they would have charged him with violating it, rather than a generic obstruction charge.

You also have to be careful, some cities or counties may have their own S&ID law. Virginia does not have one, but Arlington county requires you to ID yourself to any police officer, though the law only requires one to "identify himself by name and address", so a strict reading would suggest that you don't need to produce your driver's license - only to verbally give your name and address.

Also the Virginia AG has written an opinion that states, in summary, that it is not lawful to arrest someone for an obstruction charge if they fail to ID, but that it is acceptable to detain someone for the purposes of positively identifying them.

The main message here is that YYMV, and in some places you are required to ID yourself, in some places you are not, and in some places it's a good idea to do it anyway.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Interesting..........................

How does all the illegal aliens get let go after traffic stops???

That's hilarious. Cops couldn't care less about "illegal aliens".

Heck, ten years ago in Iowa I had one apply for work at our hotel. I had everything -- name, phone number, fake social security number, date of birth, all on a nice, neat form. For giggles, I called the sheriff and asked if they wanted this info?

Nope. Nor did the police, the FBI, or DNS. They simply decided amongst themselves not to enforce that particular law, and we mere citizens just had to suck that up.

That was when I started to realize what a corrupt joke "law enforcement" has become in America -- and its been downhill ever since.

 

[Fearless Tower]

That's hilarious. Cops couldn't care less about "illegal aliens".

LE in Arizona tried to care....until POTUS told 'em they weren't allowed to...

 

[NineThreeKilo]

So are you a terrorist?

Your line of thought to resist every attempt by a government representative sure seems like something one with terrorist values, or living in a terrorist State, would agree with.

I can do this all day long buddy.

So standing behind my constitutional rights makes me a terrorist?!

I feel I need to apologize for my questioning if you're a communist, you clearly are not.

It would appear you have more of a faschist mindset.

 

[docmirror]

All people, and surely all pilots are terrorists unless or until they can prove otherwise with a valid drivers license, which of course - a terrorist would not have.

Haven't you people ever heard of the presumption of guilt? I keel myself.....

 

[txflyer]

So standing behind my constitutional rights makes me a terrorist?!

I feel I need to apologize for my questioning if you're a communist, you clearly are not.

It would appear you have more of a faschist mindset.

If you're going to label someone, at least spell it right.

I'll bet this life is particularly hard for you.