Another pilot arrested for nothing

JHW said:
what is the big deal? police get called by a passerby, they don't know if it is an accident or not. Once they go to the scene they have to write up a report of some kind, their world runs on paper just like everyone else's. Talk to the guy and help him put some accurate facts on paper. What is so hard about that?
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+100 :yes:
 
douglas393 said:
I am not sure from my reading of the article that is how it went down. It seemed to me that the article suggested that he refused to say anything to the police, they arrested him, they found his pilot ID, and that is how they discovered who he was.
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Like Timmer said....we really don't have a clue. If the news can't get any other aviation story halfway correct, why on earth should we believe that this story as told is any more accurate?

I am sure there is more to the story. Doesn't mean the cops acted correctly, just that we really don't know what went down.
 
I don't know if I should laugh or cry. Just go along with whatever the state's thugs want, it'll be ok, maybe. Anyone for a train ride?
 
JHW said:
what is the big deal? police get called by a passerby, they don't know if it is an accident or not. Once they go to the scene they have to write up a report of some kind, their world runs on paper just like everyone else's. Talk to the guy and help him put some accurate facts on paper. What is so hard about that?
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When the cop showed up, he could see there were no bloodied up people, no noticeable damage to property, no crime being committed.

Only thing that cop should have said, if ANYTHING, is "do you need any help" and then just went about his way.
 
FORANE said:
Not sure if it was 2009 or 2010. We flew into KJAC, spent a couple days there. Then we drove to West Yellowstone and and took a couple days guided snowmobile trip on 4 strokes in the park. The next day we rented 2 stroke sleds and departed out of West Yellowstone to the South on one of the trails. We did not have a guide outside the park. The trail narrowed down and I think her sled was too much for a novice (and tiny) girl. I noticed her not behind me so I went back and found her off the trail stuck in powder. I got her sled back on the trail (I had lived in Maine previously and had some experience with snowmobiles). She then took off in front of me not fast at all but went off the side of the trail again into a tree. EMS pulled her out on a sled, then ground transport to nearest facility about 60 or 80 miles south (rexburg?). They transferred her to Idaho Falls.
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Once you leave Yellowstone National Park and enter Forest Service land there is NO out of bounds.. You can ride ANYWHERE... We always ride the trails till we see a great place to play and then depart the trail to mark up the powder....There is NO fine for leaving the trail.. Nada, No, ZIP etc... It is all legal to play in, whether you run off the trail and hit a tree, or go into a creek or get stuck in a 15 foot deep snow drift..... I am sorry some LEO wrote your wife a ticket as that not only put a bad taste in your mouth but was not legal to do... They figured you didn't know the rules and you guys would just pay the fine.. Which is totally a BS charge.. Now,, if you wandered back into the park accidentilly ,then a fine would be justified but you would have had to deal with the federal guvmint,,, not some local or state agency... It would be interesting to know who you actually wrote the check to for that fine..:dunno::rolleyes:
 
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NineThreeKilo said:
When the cop showed up, he could see there were no bloodied up people, no noticeable damage to property, no crime being committed.

Only thing that cop should have said, if ANYTHING, is "do you need any help" and then just went about his way.
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He very well could have but he decided to do his job and identify the individual he made contact with. Good arrests are made everyday by doing so. I know I have.
 
N801BH said:
Once you leave Yellowstone National Park and enter Forest Service land there is NO out of bounds.. You can ride ANYWHERE... We always ride the trails till we see a great place to play and then depart the trail to mark up the powder....There is NO fine for leaving the trail.. Nada, No, ZIP etc... It is all legal to play in, whether you run off the trail and hit a tree, or go into a creek or get stuck in a 15 foot deep snow drift..... I am sorry some LEO wrote your wife a ticket as that not only put a bad taste in your mouth but was not legal to do... They figured you didn't know the rules you guys would just pay the fine.. Which is totally a BS charge.. Now,, if you wandered back into the park accidentilly ,then a fine would be justified but you would have had to deal with the federal guvmint,,, not some local or state agency... It would be interesting to know who you actually wrote the check to for that fine..:dunno::rolleyes:
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No, no, no he needed to just pay that ticket to make the police officer happy and then he is free to go on his way/sarcasm
 
denverpilot said:
SCOTUS has upheld numerous times that police are not required by law to protect anyone. Period. End of story.

Serve? That's a political issue.

But "Protect and Serve" is Marketing material only, printed on the pretty cars with flashy lights.

The catch-all law most people are charged with when Officers feel like detaining someone with no other law to cite, is the vague "Interfering with a Police Officer" laws that most jurisdictions have.

And without a recording device, it's your word against theirs.
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Have you noticed that "Protect and Serve" is not painted on the military style armored personnel carriers carrying SWAT teams popping up in every little municipality around the country?
 
Corpsmaide said:
He very well could have but he decided to do his job and identify the individual he made contact with. Good arrests are made everyday by doing so. I know I have.
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Good arrests eh??

Imagine all the other "good arrests" you could make if your boss managed to get rid of that annoying damn constitution!!
 
I am somewhat confused here, why is there so much opposition to providing a police officer your name?
 
nddons said:
Have you noticed that "Protect and Serve" is not painted on the military style armored personnel carriers carrying SWAT teams popping up in every little municipality around the country?
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And EVERY one of those APC's are paid for from grants given to the local police from DHS..... They pay for the toys and the locals are forever obligated to kiss their asses...:nono::nono::rolleyes2:

This will NEVER turn out ok...:no::nonod:
 
NineThreeKilo said:
So the guy landed off, cops show up to "investigate" not that they have the expertise to know what they are even looking at, the guy presets his license, says he doesn't want to talk to them and is arrested?!

I never talk to cops, here is my license and "I mean no disrespect however I have nothing further to say to you".

Welcome to China!
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...some cops also have pilot credentials :).

However, the police may not have recognized it was not an accident/crash scene or possibly even an unpowered aircraft. This moves past a consensual encounter and officer has legal right to seek ID.

Good arrest.
 
douglas393 said:
I am somewhat confused here, why is there so much opposition to providing a police officer your name?
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People hate cops and believe we all violate civil rights, work by quota, are not of moral turpitude, beat people for no reason, mess with people for no reason etc. these are usually the "I know my rights" type and have no clue, or not as much as they think they know. These people then pass their prejudice to the children and then the kids give nasty looks and think the same way as their parents.
 
douglas393 said:
I am somewhat confused here, why is there so much opposition to providing a police officer your name?
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Because a large percentage of the pilot population here is of the firm belief that the Man is out to get us all.

But, then I work for the Man, so I suppose I am biased.
 
wickedsprint said:
... and officer has legal right to seek ID.

Good arrest.
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Can you please explain this legal 'right' to me? I don't have any background in LEO, or law in general. I do have a pretty good understanding of civil rights, and individual rights though.
 
Our glider club just dealt with a deputy Sheriff a couple weekends ago. He drove over to the airport after a call about an airplane "crash". I think he realized right away what wad going on. He stuck around for a while, talking airplanes and gliders. He also got a lot of cell phone pictures and video of the 1-26 and Libelle, and stayed for a launch or two. Maybe he'll come back for a ride someday. No, he didn't ask for ID.
 
“The asked him some basic questions, and he refused to answer,” Gjesdal said. “They warned him several times that he would be arrested if he didn’t cooperate.”
Deputies got the pilot’s name from his pilot’s license, Gjesdal said."


What would the basic questions be? Name, address, phone number....
 
Corpsmaide said:
People hate cops and believe we all violate civil rights, work by quota, are not of moral turpitude, beat people for no reason, mess with people for no reason etc. these are usually the "I know my rights" type and have no clue, or not as much as they think they know. These people then pass their prejudice to the children and then the kids give nasty looks and think the same way as their parents.
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People hate all sort of things in life, but sometimes I think we sweat the little things in life and forget about the big things in life. As in any field there are bad apples in the law enforcement field, however, something tells me those are not the ones who ask for your name first. You want a police officer to treat you like a criminal, then act like one. You want a police officer to treat you with respect, how about showing some respect. But do not complain about how terrible you were treated when you brought in on yourself. This glider pilot could have avoided a lot of trouble by just telling the policeman his name. He wanted to be a jerk and got his just rewards.

I am not a police officer, nor am related to one. I do know a large number of them however, and do deal with them on a frequent basis in my profession, and find them to be no different then the rest of us, just a hard working and typically woefully underpaid professional trying to make it through the day with the least amount of drama possible.
 
N2124v said:
“The asked him some basic questions, and he refused to answer,” Gjesdal said. “They warned him several times that he would be arrested if he didn’t cooperate.”
Deputies got the pilot’s name from his pilot’s license, Gjesdal said."


What would the basic questions be? Name, address, phone number....
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Name, DOB. No return, check Social...go on from there
 
N2124v said:
“The asked him some basic questions, and he refused to answer,” Gjesdal said. “They warned him several times that he would be arrested if he didn’t cooperate.”
Deputies got the pilot’s name from his pilot’s license, Gjesdal said."


What would the basic questions be? Name, address, phone number....
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Likely got ahold of pilot's license after doing an inventory of his wallet subsequent to arrest.
 
Corpsmaide said:
Name, DOB. No return, check Social...go on from there
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So I need to provide you with my social?? By law??

If I knock on your cop car window and ask for your social, what reaction would I get.

Same as mine, non of your business.

If I'm driving I'll show you my license and paperwork, same if I'm flying, you suspect me of a crime I'll tell you my name (no law requiring me to carry a ID or provide social, as far as I heard).
 
Here's what I see:

A report comes in of a plane down.

An officer is dispatched. Now those of you not familiar with the West might not realize that out here a County Sheriff's AO might be split up into patrols of several hundred square miles per Deputy (Chelan County where this occurred is 2,992 sq. miles which is larger than the State of Delaware) The Deputy arrives determines there is no real emergency and just wants to get the info he needs to file his report and get back to more important matters and continue his patrol.

He finds a individual who refuses to even speak with him. That is obstruction of his duty. He is required to find out what happened and who was involved even if it is obvious no damage was done and no crime has been committed. But he has no way of knowing that since the only other person there will not cooperate.

This pilot is indeed a jerk.
 
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wickedsprint said:
...some cops also have pilot credentials :).

However, the police may not have recognized it was not an accident/crash scene or possibly even an unpowered aircraft. This moves past a consensual encounter and officer has legal right to seek ID.

Good arrest.
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While the officer may have had the right to seek ID, that does not make it a good arrest. A legal arrest perhaps, but not necessarily good. Perhaps the officer should have exercised some judgment instead of getting bent over something inconsequential.
 
Clark1961 said:
While the officer may have had the right to seek ID, that does not make it a good arrest. A legal arrest perhaps, but not necessarily good. Perhaps the officer should have exercised some judgment instead of getting bent over something inconsequential.
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May not have been his call.
 
NineThreeKilo said:
So I need to provide you with my social?? By law??

If I knock on your cop car window and ask for your social, what reaction would I get.

Same as mine, non of your business.

If I'm driving I'll show you my license and paperwork, same if I'm flying, you suspect me of a crime I'll tell you my name (no law requiring me to carry a ID or provide social, as far as I heard).
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Sir, I suggest you ride along with your local PD and ask away.
 
NineThreeKilo said:
So I need to provide you with my social?? By law??

If I knock on your cop car window and ask for your social, what reaction would I get.

Same as mine, non of your business.

If I'm driving I'll show you my license and paperwork, same if I'm flying, you suspect me of a crime I'll tell you my name (no law requiring me to carry a ID or provide social, as far as I heard).
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Your SSN is displayed when your license is run.
 
there was a vehicle and person trespassing on private property. If I'm the landowner (presumably unfamiliar with aviation and gliders) I'd appreciate the policeman figuring out in my absence exactly what was going on in my field. Property rights are among the most fundamental rights we have, of more value to me than the alleged right to remain silent.

NineThreeKilo said:
When the cop showed up, he could see there were no bloodied up people, no noticeable damage to property, no crime being committed.

Only thing that cop should have said, if ANYTHING, is "do you need any help" and then just went about his way.
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N801BH said:
Interesting..........................

How does all the illegal aliens get let go after traffic stops???:dunno::dunno::rolleyes:
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How dare you question the thin blue line of thuggery. Not their fault they only do what their masters tell them to do, plus a little extra when no one is looking.
 
wickedsprint said:
...some cops also have pilot credentials :).

However, the police may not have recognized it was not an accident/crash scene or possibly even an unpowered aircraft. This moves past a consensual encounter and officer has legal right to seek ID.

Good arrest.
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I am going to quote this post to align it with the SS # post....

A police officer pulled over a illegal alien,,, They are here ILLEGALLY, they don't have a drivers license, or insurance or a SS #.... Are they all arrested???? HELL NO...:no::nonod::mad2::mad:
 
N801BH said:
I am going to quote this post to align it with the SS # post....

A police officer pulled over a illegal alien,,, They are here ILLEGALLY, they don't have a drivers license, or insurance or a SS #.... Are they all arrested???? HELL NO...:no::nonod::mad2::mad:
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Why do you think they wouldn't be arrested?
 
JHW said:
there was a vehicle and person trespassing on private property. If I'm the landowner (presumably unfamiliar with aviation and gliders) I'd appreciate the policeman figuring out in my absence exactly what was going on in my field. Property rights are among the most fundamental rights we have, of more value to me than the alleged right to remain silent.
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Well, this is one way to look at it. Certainly, there was a vehicle and a person on another's private property, no question of that. However, was it a trespass? Now we're splitting legal hairs at this point. A plane landing on another's private property could be an unforeseen circumstance. Much like an auto accident where one of the cars winds up off the side of the road on private property. That is not the case of a trespass, it's just the result of an accident, and absent malicious intent no criminal charge with respect to the car/person on the private property.

Having said that, this was a sailplane, so maybe the circumstance was not so unforeseen. A plane has to come down somewhere, and there is a certain probability that says it will come down on private property(I would say a pretty high probability) if landing out.

Having said that -- it's my op-ed that this was not unforeseen, such as an accident, but neither was it a malicious intent to trespass. It's one of those gray areas and the property owner certainly is justified in maintaining his property rights, but the plane pilot in the interest of safety picked the least objectionable place to land, although it was privately owned.

Now, we are at the point of contention. Did the pilot perform his required duty to present his pilots license to the LEO? Or did he refuse to identify himself? If the former, he's complied with the minimum needed to meet the regs/law, and after that is not required to do anything else. It's been my understanding, and I'm pretty secure that not assisting an LEO in his investigation when one is the subject of that investigation is not grounds for an arrest. i.e., you can't be arrested for not assisting in your own criminal investigation, such is the broad nature of the 5th amendment.

To make this more clear in statement, once you've done what's required by regulation beyond that you can stand mute, or given recent SCOTUS decision you can affirmatively decline to answer questions. If I read the recent decision right, standing mute is still not grounds for arrest, but failing to invoke your right to self-incrimination can be used as a basis for a finding of criminal activity. Which I completely disagree with, but hey - I'll play along and affirmatively decline to assist or answer questions. At that point, the LEO has no basis for arrest, and the arrest was a violation of the civil rights of the pilot.

If on the other hand, the pilot did not identify himself as required to LEO, and did not affirmatively decline to remain silent, then he's kinda screwed. So - I will provide my id as requested, and after that affirmatively decline, and let things go as they will. Eventually, this too will get to the SCOTUS and they will further split the hair of how a citizen should act in the presence of LEO.
 
Corpsmaide said:
Sir, I suggest you ride along with your local PD and ask away.
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Yeah, that's what I thought. I'd be better off asking a lawyer that question.

But ether way, unless you're from the social security office you are not getting my SS number. Also unless I personally know the cop (and I only know one) I'm not telling him anything that I wouldn't tell a random stranger, aside from what I constituently have to.


Heck, most cops don't know the law that well, what can one really expect from a 2 year CC "public saftey" education.
 
wickedsprint said:
Why do you think they wouldn't be arrested?
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Hmm..

You apparantly have not been following the current administrations direction on how LEO's enforce imigration laws.... Research that a little and get back to us sir...
 
Plane and pilot on private land that's not an airport.

Once scene safety and welfare of people ensured, obligated to investigate.

Cop not a plane expert...he/she just knows that something with wings and its operator is not where it's supposed to be.

Accident or trespass...unknown.

Subject will not identify him or herself or explain if aircraft accident or malicious intent to land on private party.

As pilots we can't just land anywhere save for exigent circumstances...ie a glider in a low energy state.

My guess is that there is more to the story.

The cop bashing may continue.
 
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mikea said:
The SCOTUS just held that not answering questions could be used in court as implied evidence of your guilt. :confused2.
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Not quite - only if you were silent and did not invoke your right to remain silent . . . as in "I do not wish to answer questions and invoke my fifth amendment right to remain silent. . . "

In this case - that is ALL the pilot needed to say.

As for trespass etc - well - yes - but most trespass requires intent to trespass. The officer could cite the guy -

The guy needed to be marginally cooperative given the situation. He could easily talk to the owner - the cop can listen if he wants.
 
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N801BH said:
Hmm..

You apparantly have not been following the current administrations direction on how LEO's enforce imigration laws.... Research that a little and get back to us sir...
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Apparently neither have you.
 
Investigate <> arrest.

Go ahead, investigate your brains out. Just don't expect help from me. And, barring that help, don't expect to make that your PC for the arrest. It sounds patently stupid: 'He was arrested cause he wouldn't answer my questions about him, his plane, or the landing/crash.'

So?
 
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