Another one lost from 52F

Word around here is that it was a turbine Bo, which jives with the registration info that engine is AMA expr. Also rumored that he was going to stop in Athens, TX for cheap fuel. All unconfirmed but plausible.
 
wabower said:
Word around here is that it was a turbine Bo, which jives with the registration info that engine is AMA expr. Also rumored that he was going to stop in Athens, TX for cheap fuel. All unconfirmed but plausible.
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If you look at prior FA tracks, he used to travel at 18000ft on his regular trips to McAllen. That would also fit with a nonpressurized turbine.
 
It was a turbo not turbin from what I understand.
 
Maybe so, but FAA data shows AMA exper as engine type, and Tradewinds Turbine is based in Amarillo. I'm just reporting what's being said here and the FAA data, trying to connect the dots.





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JoshJ said:
It was a turbo not turbin from what I understand.
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The following is just conjecture, but here goes:

If you look at the flightaware track, he was closer to Athens than to Terrell when he diverted back to Terrell. Why? Well Terrell has a GPS LPV approach and Athens only an LNAV approach. Minimums for the LNAV into Athens are 556 ft above field elevation. Kind of close based on the ceilings that were being reported in the area (600 ft at the time in some places). So totally a guess, but he might have decided to go back to Terrell and shoot the LPV approach which has a DA of 258 feet. Then... crashed on the approach (ran out of fuel or got too low). You can see him trying to head in, then there are some crazy gyrations leading away from the airport and my guess is those are not valid.

We will see the report at some point.
 

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Gubbins said:
The following is just conjecture, but here goes:

If you look at the flightaware track, he was closer to Athens than to Terrell when he diverted back to Terrell. Why? Well Terrell has a GPS LPV approach and Athens only an LNAV approach. Minimums for the LNAV into Athens are 556 ft above field elevation. Kind of close based on the ceilings that were being reported in the area (600 ft at the time in some places). So totally a guess, but he might have decided to go back to Terrell and shoot the LPV approach which has a DA of 258 feet. Then... crashed on the approach (ran out of fuel or got too low). You can see him trying to head in, then there are some crazy gyrations leading away from the airport and my guess is those are not valid.

We will see the report at some point.
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Looking at the GPS 35 approach and his track, it doesn't look to me like he was ever on it.
 
Sam D said:
Looking at the GPS 35 approach and his track, it doesn't look to me like he was ever on it.
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That might be the issue. Again just guessing. We don't have all the facts at our disposal. In a panic (low fuel) I can totally imagine someone being too far to the right of an approach and trying to "close the gap" instead of flying it properly or going missed and trying again.
 
EppyGA said:
This is more interesting to look at.
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Looking deeper into this track it does appear he tried to find every airport that was an option to land at, regardless of fuel type needed. He made a shot at 1F7 and didn't have contact, then tried looking for alot of other runways including, Terrell, Van Zandt, Canton/ Hackney, and various other private strips like, Rhines Roost, Goode, Thompson, and possibly others... This poor guy launched with minimum fuel hoping to land at his first choice,,, got spooked by the low ceiling, and proceeded to try and find any way down before the go juice ran out.... Unfortunately there is a good chance the motor flamed out before he found a hole and gravity took over... :sad::sad::sad:.. Two young kids too..:sad::sad::nono:
 
3393RP said:
According to today's Dallas Morning News the aircraft went missing 45 minutes after departure from 52F. This makes much more sense than the FlightAware data.

Also lost in the crash were the pilot's two young sons, ages 13 and 17.

Awful.
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Aweful is right. Makes me sick.
 
Len was a dear friend, squash partner, and former airplane partner. His brother, Greg, was a friend also. Both of them were rock-solid individuals. To correct some speculation on the board, his plane was a turbine Bonanza. He flew it almost every week in conjunction with his dental practice. He took his flying seriously. I knew Len as someone who would land and wait out bad weather. I saw that type of reaction firsthand. I, too, have listened to the atc tapes up until his handoff to Ft. Worth center and looked at the track on flightaware. I do aerial survey work and in reviewing some of my flights, they can look very similiar (screwy looking to someone un-accustomed to knowing what is going on) And yes, sometimes the FA data looks like it has gone into coast mode. I am at a loss to explain what might have happened at this juncture and look forward to seeing the final report to try to make some sense of it all. Mostly, I am just incredibly saddened at the loss of four precious lives.
 
Sorry for your loss.

latebloomer said:
Len was a dear friend, squash partner, and former airplane partner. His brother, Greg, was a friend also. Both of them were rock-solid individuals. To correct some speculation on the board, his plane was a turbine Bonanza. He flew it almost every week in conjunction with his dental practice. He took his flying seriously. I knew Len as someone who would land and wait out bad weather. I saw that type of reaction firsthand. I, too, have listened to the atc tapes up until his handoff to Ft. Worth center and looked at the track on flightaware. I do aerial survey work and in reviewing some of my flights, they can look very similiar (screwy looking to someone un-accustomed to knowing what is going on) And yes, sometimes the FA data looks like it has gone into coast mode. I am at a loss to explain what might have happened at this juncture and look forward to seeing the final report to try to make some sense of it all. Mostly, I am just incredibly saddened at the loss of four precious lives.
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Thanks for the clarifications and sorry for your personal loss. It's sad even when you don't know those who perished and even worse when they are close friends.

On a related subject, do you happen to know if he had on occasion purchased fuel at Athens?

latebloomer said:
Len was a dear friend, squash partner, and former airplane partner. His brother, Greg, was a friend also. Both of them were rock-solid individuals. To correct some speculation on the board, his plane was a turbine Bonanza. He flew it almost every week in conjunction with his dental practice. He took his flying seriously. I knew Len as someone who would land and wait out bad weather. I saw that type of reaction firsthand. I, too, have listened to the atc tapes up until his handoff to Ft. Worth center and looked at the track on flightaware. I do aerial survey work and in reviewing some of my flights, they can look very similiar (screwy looking to someone un-accustomed to knowing what is going on) And yes, sometimes the FA data looks like it has gone into coast mode. I am at a loss to explain what might have happened at this juncture and look forward to seeing the final report to try to make some sense of it all. Mostly, I am just incredibly saddened at the loss of four precious lives.
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latebloomer; thank you for coming on the forum and sharing your information.
 
latebloomer said:
Len was a dear friend, squash partner, and former airplane partner. His brother, Greg, was a friend also. Both of them were rock-solid individuals. To correct some speculation on the board, his plane was a turbine Bonanza. He flew it almost every week in conjunction with his dental practice. He took his flying seriously. I knew Len as someone who would land and wait out bad weather. I saw that type of reaction firsthand. I, too, have listened to the atc tapes up until his handoff to Ft. Worth center and looked at the track on flightaware. I do aerial survey work and in reviewing some of my flights, they can look very similiar (screwy looking to someone un-accustomed to knowing what is going on) And yes, sometimes the FA data looks like it has gone into coast mode. I am at a loss to explain what might have happened at this juncture and look forward to seeing the final report to try to make some sense of it all. Mostly, I am just incredibly saddened at the loss of four precious lives.
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Very sorry for your loss. :sad:
 
So sad. Sorry for your loss. What a tragedy.
 
Very sorry for the loss. Not easy when you don't know the person, even worse when you do. :(
 
N32GP was a turboprop A36 conversion done by Soloy (#8 of 8 contracted by what was then Allison). Type certificate was sold to Tradewind Turbines in Amarillo (now out of business). Engine was a Rolls-Royce Allison 250-B17C. Airplane had Osborne tip tanks holding 20g each. Aircraft total fuel capacity 120 gal. Block fuel consumption is 25 gph at full throttle and cruise altitude of 15K. FA speeds, if accurate, indicate throttle retarded, likely to save fuel, IMO. 150 kts IAS would produce a fuel burn of about 18 gph. At 120 gal and block burn of 25 gph, the airplane had a 4:45 range. Airplane had a KFC-200 autopilot with dual HSIs, GNS530 with a WX-500, dual altimeters and dual attitude indicators (one vac, one electric), with backup electrically powered vac system. There should be no further speculation on these issues.

Two days prior, the airplane flew 2:38. If the FA time hacks are accurate, the 10/6 flight lasted 2:11. 2:38+2:11=4:49. The owner was fastidious about maintenance and had made 100 flights in this airplane in 2012.

Wreckage photos clearly show both main gear assemblies in the immediate debris field so it is unlikely that the airplane broke up in flight. Most major parts are identifiable from the helicopter photos. It appears to me that the airplane hit the ground in a near vertical orientation given the compactness of the debris field and the fact that both wings are identifiable in correct orientation to the fuselage impact site. Vertical stab, rudder and horizontals are all more or less intact.

It would be extremely useful to know what conversation took place between the airplane and FW Center and precisely what the weather was. The only weather information I have seen is 1500' OVC, 6000' tops-hardly nasty IFR.

Len was one of the finest people I have known, loved his airplane and respected its capabilities. Most importantly, he and Greg and the boys are gone. I will miss him.
 
Thanks for the update. The brothers were known to friends of mine down here in South Tx, which brings some personal feelings. Please keep us posted if you learn anything new.
 
My condolences to the family and friends of those lost. It's not easy and the hurt is slow to fade.

Remember the good things.
 
1) If anyone knows somebody at FBOs at KMFE and can extract information regarding a jet fuel purchase on 10/4, the answer would speak volumes. 2) If anyone has or can get access to the air to ground transcript between N32GP and FWC, that too would illuminate this matter enormously. Perhaps just a phone call to somebody you know at the FSDO or the Center??? 3) If anyone can determine with a high degree of certainty the precise time of the accident, that too would shed considerable light on the issues. As some readers may surmise, there is some method to the apparent madness.

Flight Aware lat/long data places the aircraft precisely at Soldo 24min after departure and at TRL 2:03 if their times are to be believed. Please note that many of the FA CRS data points do not correspond to the FA track. Also: please note, that a clearance to an intersection (SOLDO) would only be given on an IFR flight plan.
 
If there's a tape the pilot's family or his estate should be able to obtain it. This would seem to be the time to be represented by an aviation-savvy attorney.


volaveloce said:
1) If anyone knows somebody at FBOs at KMFE and can extract information regarding a jet fuel purchase on 10/4, the answer would speak volumes. 2) If anyone has or can get access to the air to ground transcript between N32GP and FWC, that too would illuminate this matter enormously. Perhaps just a phone call to somebody you know at the FSDO or the Center??? 3) If anyone can determine with a high degree of certainty the precise time of the accident, that too would shed considerable light on the issues. As some readers may surmise, there is some method to the apparent madness.

Flight Aware lat/long data places the aircraft precisely at Soldo 24min after departure and at TRL 2:03 if their times are to be believed. Please note that many of the FA CRS data points do not correspond to the FA track. Also: please note, that a clearance to an intersection (SOLDO) would only be given on an IFR flight plan.
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The NTSB Preliminary report has been published. Several substantive facts have emerged that we did not previously know that make the Flight Aware data suspect. The news station site photographs seem to have been removed. The pictures of the debris field seem to agree and disagree with what the Feds have to say but interest in this discussion seems to have ended so I will post the link to NTSB.

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20121006X31929&key=1

Len and Greg's funeral is today. RIP.
 
Something does not make sense. The NTSB report states the pilot had no flight time in the 6 months prior to the accident, but if you look on flightaware, the plane at least seems to have been flown at least once a week and more often more since August. The personal friend also suggests the pilot flew a lot. So where is the NTSB getting it information, as it almost seems they are starting to lay the groundwork for lack of recent flying experience which does not seem true.

Doug
 
douglas393 said:
Something does not make sense. The NTSB report states the pilot had no flight time in the 6 months prior to the accident, but if you look on flightaware, the plane at least seems to have been flown at least once a week and more often more since August. The personal friend also suggests the pilot flew a lot. So where is the NTSB getting it information, as it almost seems they are starting to lay the groundwork for lack of recent flying experience which does not seem true.
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That's not quite what it says.

The pilot's most recent FAA third-class medical certificate was issued on August 31, 2011. The medical certificate had a limitation for corrective lenses. At that time, he reported that he had accumulated 340 hours of total flight time and had accumulated no flight time during the six months prior to that application.
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I read that as saying the pilot did not report any flight time during the six month period before August 31, 2011.
 
If you are a 'mature' individual and obtain your medical/student pilot license before you spend money on flight training, you would typically report 0 hrs on the initial application.
 
Everskyward said:
That's not quite what it says.

I read that as saying the pilot did not report any flight time during the six month period before August 31, 2011.
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You are absolutely right I misread it. Sorry. Still it seems out of line with what the other poster said.

Doug
 
weilke said:
If you are a 'mature' individual and obtain your medical/student pilot license before you spend money on flight training, you would typically report 0 hrs on the initial application.
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It does not appear to be initial evaluations. They use the term most recent, and one had 340 hours and the other pilot 130 hours. In any case I misread it. It was not in the six months prior to the accident but in the six months prior to the renewal of medical.

Doug
 
It is correct that the pilot had no time in a number of years -eight or so- prior to the August 2011 Medical but had probably 150+ hours in this airplane specifically since the date of the medical and 25 hours of dual with an A36 turbine qualified flight instructor within the year prior to the accident. He was flying this airplane 4-6 hours per week in the year prior to the accident as part of his dental practice in south Texas.
 
The pilot was quite conscious of the airplane's complexity and high performance characteristics as well as his own limitations in time and experience. He was also quite conscious of his personal need for currency and recurrent training.
 
gubbins said:
The PIC had 340 hours. I don't think anyone should judge until the investigation is complete.
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Re-read my post. No such judgement was made. It's written in ENGLISH. It does not say, "this is because the guy was an outlier"

240 was corrected to 340. Seriously an outlier.

I refuse to me muzzled by the politically correct crowd. I am pointing out something obvious which no one has noted. No statement as to causality.
 
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