Another one lost from 52F

DrMack

DrMack

Line Up and Wait
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DrMack
Bonanza. 4 fatalities. 2nd loss out of 52F in a week. No details yet.
 
Owie.
Flight aware track, attached.
Weather was pretty low and the track sure looks it, and none of the lines fit any published approach to KTRL.
 

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Man alive.

Remember when that Super Viking out of ADS crashed, back (IIRC) on new years day, 2003? Presumed (from last radio calls) instrument or vac failure. I recall Dr. Bruce commenting (was that on the old Yellow Board?) about wanting to just climb on top, then work it out. And that is my plan.

And, I had an instructor hammer me with a vacuum failure in IMC (in a very good sim), vectored me for the approach, which I successfully completed - but barely! He pointed out to me that I should have asked - demanded - that "ATC" allow me to stay on top until I could intercept an ILS/localizer and fly that on down. Sounded pretty wise to me.
 
"A graphic from Flight Aware shows the plane had a smooth takeoff headed southeast. Then, over the Terrell airport, it suddenly started an erratic route and stayed in the air for three and a half hours before crashing."

Three and a half hours? 52f to Terrell airport is about a 30 minute flight in Bonanza? It looks like they went around, not under the DFW Bravo and then over to Terrell. The path around Terrell makes no sense.
 
texasag93 said:
"A graphic from Flight Aware shows the plane had a smooth takeoff headed southeast. Then, over the Terrell airport, it suddenly started an erratic route and stayed in the air for three and a half hours before crashing."

Three and a half hours? 52f to Terrell airport is about a 30 minute flight in Bonanza? It looks like they went around, not under the DFW Bravo and then over to Terrell. The path around Terrell makes no sense.
Click to expand...

No distress calls? No contact with ATC? 3.5 hours with 3 people on board? :eek:

Wow, just wow.
 
"Are we in Mississippi yet?"

texasag93 said:
"A graphic from Flight Aware shows the plane had a smooth takeoff headed southeast. Then, over the Terrell airport, it suddenly started an erratic route and stayed in the air for three and a half hours before crashing."

Three and a half hours? 52f to Terrell airport is about a 30 minute flight in Bonanza? It looks like they went around, not under the DFW Bravo and then over to Terrell. The path around Terrell makes no sense.
Click to expand...
 
Looks to me like they were on route staying low at 3000 feet then at some point 35 miles south east of Terrell, decided to divert back to Terrell. Something serious issue must have been going on because they were over the place at that point. Poor bastards. What were the ceilings in the area, does anyone know?
 
Were the VFR only, and stuck on top looking for a hole? But, then why not contact ATC?

This is a strange one.
 
Going to Aggie vs. Ole Miss game?
 
Ugh, tragic! Some thing had to go wrong long before the crash. a bizarre flight pat only 30 min into the flight. It going to be tough to learn from this one. Very sad.
 
Anthony said:
Were the VFR only, and stuck on top looking for a hole? But, then why not contact ATC?

This is a strange one.
Click to expand...

There were only at 3000 ft according to flightaware. Ceilings at Terrell were at 600 ft then 1000 ft according to the metars around the time this happened. Terrell elevation is 470ft.
 
Anthony said:
But, then why not contact ATC?
Click to expand...

Did I miss something here? They were on FlightAware and thus, I assume, receiving flight following. The article says the search began when ATC lost communications with them. Why are we all assuming they weren't talking?
 
Looks like a / G equipted plane...

Should have been able to craft some type of decent /approach.. My guess is the pilot was incapacitated and the other three had no clue how to fly or even key the mic.... That would have been a long 3 hours for them till they hit.:sad:
 
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I have to wonder if the times are correct... were they really in the air that long, or was other stuff going on? The track log has some oddities that can't be explained unless there were spurious indications. Will be interesting to see what the final report says.
 
dukeblue219 said:
Did I miss something here? They were on FlightAware and thus, I assume, receiving flight following. The article says the search began when ATC lost communications with them. Why are we all assuming they weren't talking?
Click to expand...

Actually looks like they were on an IFR plan.
 
You know, looking at the TrackLog from FlightAware it looks to me like the data is bad. Lots of data from Fort Worth Center that shows the same position and velocity for an hour. Before that was a period where they were all over the place at about precisely 55kt. At other times they're all over the sky at 35-40kt but maintaining precisely 3000ft. I think there's more to this and the FA feed is just bad for this flight.
 
This is more interesting to look at.
 

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dukeblue219 said:
Did I miss something here? They were on FlightAware and thus, I assume, receiving flight following. The article says the search began when ATC lost communications with them. Why are we all assuming they weren't talking?
Click to expand...

Good point. They must have been on an IFR Fligthplan because at the low altitude Flightaware doesn't pick you up when getting VFR FF.
 
Don't know whether we can trust the entire FA track, but it certainly appears as though they made a run at KTRL at least once.
 
Wonder if we're talking total electrical failure and an attempt to use a portable device to find an airport....
 
Anyone brave enough to try to find a recording on LiveATC? (Those things give me the willies!)
 
Gubbins said:
What were the ceilings in the area, does anyone know?
Click to expand...

I was on an IFR training flight out of KRBD Saturday morning at 0930. The METARS at KRBD at departure was OVC018. That's about right, we went IMC at about 1700 ft. and found the tops around ~6000. Flew down to KACT and broke out at 1500 ft. during the approach. It was solid IMC once you went in the clouds...
 
Sam D said:
Anyone brave enough to try to find a recording on LiveATC? (Those things give me the willies!)
Click to expand...

I already tried. Fort Worth Ctr. on that frequency is not covered by LiveATC. And neither is Terrell.
 
Two brothers in their 60s, one IR rated the other one a new private pilot. Looking how they skirted the class B, it doesn't look like they were on a IFR clearance at that point, could have possibly picked one up later.

RiP
 
Looks like the airplane is owned by a dentist from Southlake.
 
weilke said:
Two brothers in their 60s, one IR rated the other one a new private pilot. Looking how they skirted the class B, it doesn't look like they were on a IFR clearance at that point, could have possibly picked one up later.
Click to expand...

In any number of Class B airspace areas ATC will give you a clearance that just skirts the Class B. Tell me how I know.

I don't recall whether Dallas is one or not.
 
wsuffa said:
In any number of Class B airspace areas ATC will give you a clearance that just skirts the Class B. Tell me how I know.
Click to expand...

In a semi-circle like that ?

If I go IFR from VKX northeastbound, they have me depart VFR due south until I am clear of the surface area before they give me a clearance and turn me on course. Unless they give you some sort of DME arc as a departure, I dont know how this flightaware track could be the resulf of a clearance.

If you look at the track, it curves around the 2000ft shelf at 3000ft. Once he was approaching Addison and figured that he had to talk to them, he turned outbound on the shortest radial track to the edge of the 3000ft shelf. The second his GPS showed him clear of the 3000ft shelf, he turned on course.

I dont believe any of the FA tracking data after 1012. If I wanted to believe them, I would have to accept that the plane puttered along going 36kts while maintaining altitude at an even 3000ft :dunno:.
 
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DrMack said:
Looks like the airplane is owned by a dentist from Southlake.
Click to expand...

Looks like the LLC is owned by the dentist (IR rated PP) and his brother (PPL only). According to the press reports, both were on board.
 
Some of those turns were pretty tight. I guess the tightness of the turns could be an artifact of flightaware but I would think the load factors on the place would be pretty high if those turns are as tight as they appear. Also if we assume that the IFR was incapacitated and the PPL was still flying the plane, even if he did was not IFR certified if he flew the plane with those turns and did not get into an unusual attitude he had some idea what to do and it should have been pretty simple for him to fly the plane either to an area that was VMC or through the clouds to VMC.

This does not appear to be something simple.

Doug
 
The FA track is definitely not consistent with any of the vectoring I receive while flying IFR in and around the DFW class B (I'm based at KRBD) but then the FA log shows it filed 3000' so I guess we have at assume they were IFR. Regional approach sometimes complains that they lose my mode C signal when I'm getting pushed around at 3000', usually on arrival, so the altitude information on the FA track may be suspect. Not sure if the track information is mode C dependent though. I always assumed that it was primary returns. Kinda makes ya wonder how reliable ADS-B is going to be at these altitudes, eh?
 
DrMack said:
so the altitude information on the FA track may be suspect. Not sure if the track information is mode C dependent though. I always assumed that it was primary returns. Kinda makes ya wonder how reliable ADS-B is going to be at these altitudes, eh?
Click to expand...

The altitudes on FA are based on mode C. If the the returns reported by the FAA don't have mode-C attached, FA will make up an altitude, in this case it seems that it used the filed altitude ('filed' in this case may not mean an IFR flight plan but just the number the regional approach controller punched in when he picked up the flight for VFR advisories).

One of the press reports states that the plance crashed after 30 minutes. I suspect that everything after that is the usual flightaware garbage.
 
The tracks showing on FA seem to, at least to a certain degree, reflect actual flight. Nothing in the track appears to be coasting.

But it looks like it must have been a very bad ride, whatever it was!
 
weilke said:
In a semi-circle like that ?

If I go IFR from VKX northeastbound, they have me depart VFR due south until I am clear of the surface area before they give me a clearance and turn me on course. Unless they give you some sort of DME arc as a departure, I dont know how this flightaware track could be the resulf of a clearance.

If you look at the track, it curves around the 2000ft shelf at 3000ft. Once he was approaching Addison and figured that he had to talk to them, he turned outbound on the shortest radial track to the edge of the 3000ft shelf. The second his GPS showed him clear of the 3000ft shelf, he turned on course.

I dont believe any of the FA tracking data after 1012. If I wanted to believe them, I would have to accept that the plane puttered along going 36kts while maintaining altitude at an even 3000ft :dunno:.
Click to expand...

No question there is a problem after 1012. And it's pretty clear that everything after 1115 is suspect (coast mode, maybe).

Any number of possibilities on the curved track, including VFR departure, then IFR. If he departed VFR, then picked up a clearance at the point where he headed outbound from TTT, it would explain the routing shown (and given his transit under the DFW arrival/departure path, that would not surprise me at all). The identified clearance is TTT084 SOLDO (the point where the track turned from ESE to SE north of TRL is pretty close to SOLDO). Given TTT's location, I'd bet that approach would not actually route on the 084 if he were in radar/radio contact. And he could have cleared the ADS airspace on a more direct routing if he were avoiding talking to them.

Hopefully there will be an NTSB report that will have more details.
 
How long does an NTSB report take to come out? (new guy question, I know).
 
TangoWhiskey said:
I already tried. Fort Worth Ctr. on that frequency is not covered by LiveATC. And neither is Terrell.
Click to expand...

I did catch them leaving 52F @ 14:08:30Z on my KAFW feed, and they were cleared to F24 via RV, SOLDO, climb and maintain 3000, and they were given a squawk of 5253 and told to fly heading 070. Sure sounds IFR to me.

Then their handoff to Regional on 124.3. They were asked to expedite their climb to 3000 and fly heading 040 by Regional @ 14:13:45 (they checked in 2300' at 14:10:45Z), and Regional had to give another departure vectors for the climb to avoid N32GP as traffic.

@ 14:17:05, they were given a right turn, heading 110, direct SOLDO intersection, and that was the last transmission I can find until their handoff to FW Center on 132.02 @ 14:24:27Z.

Things seemed fine with them through my last contact at 14:24:27, when they were handed off to Fort Worth Center on 132.02, a frequency not covered by any Live ATC feeds.

You can see the vectors apparent in their "V" track:

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According to today's Dallas Morning News the aircraft went missing 45 minutes after departure from 52F. This makes much more sense than the FlightAware data.

Also lost in the crash were the pilot's two young sons, ages 13 and 17.

Awful.
 
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