Another Malaysia 777 Down

FloridaPilot said:
That is exactly right!

But not only terrorists ANYBODY that wants to make a statement. Planes are "sitting ducks" landing and taking off and those devices are easy to get.
This can happen easily in the U.S.A as well.

Rest in peace all the souls on board!
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It's already happened here.

Just covered up.

TWA flight 800.
 
Criitter7 said:
I thought 800 was to high up to be hit by a missile small enough to hide.
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More than one missile was fired.

The NTSB investigators were stymied at every opportunity. No other crash in history in the U.S. (according to the NTSB guys) was teaming with FBI, CIA, NSA agents before they even arrived.

There were eye witnesses (and a small plane pilot's report) of a SAM rising out of the sea towards the plane. Like it originated from a ship or a sub. All of it was buried and scoffed at....there was someone, or some thing on that plane TPTB did not want out of here.
 
txflyer said:
More than one missile was fired.

The NTSB investigators were stymied at every opportunity. No other crash in history in the U.S. (according to the NTSB guys) was teaming with FBI, CIA, NSA agents before they even arrived.

There were eye witnesses (and a small plane pilot's report) of a SAM rising out of the sea towards the plane. Like it originated from a ship or a sub. All of it was buried and scoffed at....there was someone, or some thing on that plane TPTB did not want out of here.
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Have any of the people who were involved in the alleged cover up come forward?

http://www.popularmechanics.com/tec...the-twa-flight-800-conspiracy-theory-15629315
 
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Dav8or said:
They weren't people. They were royalty. In those days, there was a big difference. In addition, the US didn't enter that war until over a thousand ordinary people were killed.
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If you're referring to the Lusitania, you'd best check the dates. The US didn't enter the war until almost two years after. Makes a good snippet in the abbreviated history books, but the Lusitania didn't strongly contribute to the US's entry.

At the start of the war, it was practically a coin flip as to what side we'd eventually join. Lotsa German heritage in middle- and lower-class US, not to mention a ton of Irish. Kipling had lived in the US for a while, about ten years earlier, and his writing about how much England was disliked has a kind of bewildered tone.

Ron Wanttaja
 
Palmpilot said:
Have any of the people who were involved in the alleged cover up come forward?

http://www.popularmechanics.com/tec...the-twa-flight-800-conspiracy-theory-15629315
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Would you risk death or other .gov sanctions to come forward when the deed has been done?

In the conspiracy documentaries, you mainly see only very old veterans who don't give a **** anymore that come forward. Or maybe if someone has a terminal illness and a guilty conscience they may come forward.

But they will be re-buffed and painted a liar and a kook no matter the circumstances.
 
And only that Jones guy would interview the whistleblower giving whatever the official story is even more credibility.:rolleyes:
 
txflyer said:
Would you risk death or other .gov sanctions to come forward when the deed has been done?
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What is the evidence that people who come forward would be killed or sanctioned? And why did such measures, if they exist, remain in place after the White House changed hands?

In the conspiracy documentaries, you mainly see only very old veterans who don't give a **** anymore that come forward. Or maybe if someone has a terminal illness and a guilty conscience they may come forward.

But they will be re-buffed and painted a liar and a kook no matter the circumstances.
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Is there a link where I can read the accounts of those people?
 
Palmpilot said:
What is the evidence that people who come forward would be killed or sanctioned? And why did such measures, if they exist, remain in place after the White House changed hands?



Is there a link where I can read the accounts of those people?
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It was the head NTSB investigator that wanted an inquiry re-opened and he had others on board. I remember I think they were trying a petition.

The conspiracy documentary on TWA 800 was very compelling. Goog it if you haven't seen it.

As far as links, I could throw them at you all day long, but one can only lead a horse to water ... :dunno:
 
txflyer said:
It was the head NTSB investigator that wanted an inquiry re-opened and he had others on board. I remember I think they were trying a petition.
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I was asking about people who were involved in the alleged cover up. Have any of them come forward?

The conspiracy documentary on TWA 800 was very compelling. Goog it if you haven't seen it.
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How do you deal with the criticisms of the documentary in the article that I linked?

As far as links, I could throw them at you all day long, but one can only lead a horse to water ... :dunno:
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So far, you haven't put up any links at all.

You also haven't explained why the alleged cover up was continued when the White House changed hands.
 
Palmpilot said:
I was asking about people who were involved in the alleged cover up. Have any of them come forward?



How do you deal with the criticisms of the documentary in the article that I linked?



So far, you haven't put up any links at all.

You also haven't explained why the alleged cover up was continued when the White House changed hands.
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Look, I know what you're trying to do, and I could really care less....

I've forwarded an opinion on here just like EVERYONE.

I don't have countless hours to read and debate and prove up links. DYOD :)
 
txflyer said:
Look, I know what you're trying to do, and I could really care less....
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I don't know about you, but I flunked out of mind reading school.

What is it that you think I'm trying to do? And why does that matter?
 
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Palmpilot said:
I don't know about you, but I flunked out of mind reading school.

What is it that you think I'm trying to do? And why does that matter?
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No matter in the grande scheme of things. Just talking ... :idea:

Take a look at the conspiracy documentary and see if you find any of it credible.

Sorry for the hijack OP .... we need to bug out to a new thread if it continues. There's probably a bunch of old threads in here about it from back when it happened.
 
If there is a silver lining to this MH17 disaster it will be to help disprove the TW800 tinfoil hat theories.

Just as with the Ukranian SAM shootdown of Siberian Airline flight 1812, examination of the wreckage will contain many embedded warhead fragments and the fuselage panels will appear to have been hit by a huge shotgun.

In other words, the MH17 wreckage will be nothing like the wreckage of TWA 800, which contained no missile fragments nor any sign of an explosion outside of the aircraft.
 
overdrive148 said:
Quick, drop the nose and apply power! We're headed for the spin zone! :yikes:
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txflyer said:
Sorry for the hijack OP .... we need to bug out to a new thread if it continues. There's probably a bunch of old threads in here about it from back when it happened.
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Yeah, get off of my lawn!

No actually though, discussion is good and all, but let's keep this thread for discussing the incident at hand. I haven't been closely following all the bickering, but to discuss other incidents, we should make new threads. And of course spin zone anything that belongs there.
 
FloridaPilot said:
I don't think that is true,

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lan...n-at-lapd-event-from-military-owners-say.html

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/01/29/1508251/gun-buyback-missile-launcher/

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...d-2-day-gun-buyback-event-n-article-1.1251108

If you have the cash and you want it, someone will sell it to you!
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That said, the price tag on a SA-11 will not be small unless one is sponsored by a state giving them to you. Then there is training to use the thing effectively, plus having the intel to know what you are firing upon at 33,000'. Like I said before, my bet is that the airliner hit was an oops.
 
FloridaPilot said:
I don't think that is true,

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lan...n-at-lapd-event-from-military-owners-say.html

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/01/29/1508251/gun-buyback-missile-launcher/

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...d-2-day-gun-buyback-event-n-article-1.1251108

If you have the cash and you want it, someone will sell it to you!
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Those articles refer to shoulder mounted IR missiles. Except for both being missiles they have nothing in common with the SA-11 that was used to murder MH17.

These are valid analogies:

SA-7 - Piper Cub
Stinger - Pitts Special
SA-11 - F-15C

Sure, money can buy almost anything. Of course to buy and maintain an SA-11 would involve about the same level of effort as buying and maintaining an F-15.
 
FloridaPilot said:
That is exactly right!

But not only terrorists ANYBODY that wants to make a statement. Planes are "sitting ducks" landing and taking off and those devices are easy to get.
This can happen easily in the U.S.A as well.

Rest in peace all the souls on board!
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This is what I was referring to. A terrorist doesn't have to hit an airplane at cruising altitudes just when the plane is landing and taking off and they can use the devices previously mentioned.

As far as the SA-11 is concerned when I said If you have enough cash someone would sell you one is true Countries sell weapons to each other all the time.

Sorry for the mix up!
 
FloridaPilot said:
I don't think that is true,

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lan...n-at-lapd-event-from-military-owners-say.html

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/01/29/1508251/gun-buyback-missile-launcher/

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...d-2-day-gun-buyback-event-n-article-1.1251108

If you have the cash and you want it, someone will sell it to you!
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There's a difference between buying or bringing home an expended or practice portable missile launcher- which at that point is nothing but a metal tube- and obtaining a functional fixed-emplacement SAM system with a 40,000ft engagement altitude.
 
JimNtexas said:
If there is a silver lining to this MH17 disaster it will be to help disprove the TW800 tinfoil hat theories.

Just as with the Ukranian SAM shootdown of Siberian Airline flight 1812, examination of the wreckage will contain many embedded warhead fragments and the fuselage panels will appear to have been hit by a huge shotgun.
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Not by the time independent investigators are allowed to examine the wreckage....

Ron Wanttaja
 
wanttaja said:
Not by the time independent investigators are allowed to examine the wreckage....

Ron Wanttaja
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Every rational person in the first world knows what happened. Doesn't really matter if we get the first scrap of wreckage or the black boxes. There are waaay too many fingerprints on this. The only real things to determine (IMO) are whether the Russians provided the entire SAM system and ushered it across the border in the last few weeks, or if it was a captured Ukrainian unit. Also, who was manning it (Russians or Ukrainians?) and who gave the order to fire? The debris won't give those answers.
 
JimNtexas said:
Just as with the Ukranian SAM shootdown of Siberian Airline flight 1812, examination of the wreckage will contain many embedded warhead fragments and the fuselage panels will appear to have been hit by a huge shotgun.

In other words, the MH17 wreckage will be nothing like the wreckage of TWA 800, which contained no missile fragments nor any sign of an explosion outside of the aircraft.
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In case of MH17, the damage looks like pictured.

As far TWA800 conspiracists go, they are the worst. The birth certificate people are nice and cuddly by comparison. This is especially the case after a 737 blew up with the same cause as that 747. In case of 737 though it was on the ground and poor TWA800 jerkfaces did their best to ignore it.
 

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kyleb said:
Every rational person in the first world knows what happened. Doesn't really matter if we get the first scrap of wreckage or the black boxes. There are waaay too many fingerprints on this. The only real things to determine (IMO) are whether the Russians provided the entire SAM system and ushered it across the border in the last few weeks, or if it was a captured Ukrainian unit. Also, who was manning it (Russians or Ukrainians?) and who gave the order to fire? The debris won't give those answers.
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You are spot on. The only question really is, who ordered the shoot down and why? However, like I said before, it doesn't really matter because nothing serious will come of this. The victim's families might be able to seek compensation if they figure out who did it and why. That's about it.

Well, that and many airlines may be reviewing their policies on flying over conflict zones.
 
This is going to be a very interesting investigation - mainly because the scene has not been controlled. That's allowed gawkers, reporters, and anybody with a cell phone camera to take pictures and get them posted online immediately. Everyone is able to see the damage, and damage patterns before official investigators. Once they are able to get access, who knows how much will still be left from the souvenir hunters? And the FDR and CVR are probably not going to be returned any time soon.

But, the investigators won't really have much to do anyway since it seems pretty obvious that it was shot down.

I'm sure the families would like to have the remains and personal effects returned as intact as possible though.
 
ebykowsky said:
When do you think we'll have a transcript?
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Sadly, never. -"Upon closer inspection, the recording devices were found to have been irreparably damaged by mysterious holes that measure exactly 7.62mm in diameter." :D
 
kyleb said:
What's it gonna tell us? The airplane was flying along just fine, then boom.

We already know that.
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Honestly, I'm just morbidly curious about what the last few minutes/seconds were like.
 
ebykowsky said:
Honestly, I'm just morbidly curious about what the last few minutes/seconds were like.
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Normal boring airtravel, normal boring airtravel, normal boring airtravel, very fiery. Possible some lived through the initial hit and fell to their deaths with the wreckage, which is either an unpleasant experience or calming depending on your disposition.
 
Matthew said:
But, the investigators won't really have much to do anyway since it seems pretty obvious that it was shot down.
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No, it won't be an air safety investigation but it will be a criminal investigation instead and they will be busy - type of missile, perhaps even its serial number, exact spot it was fired from, who fired it, etc.
 
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