Another "Does This Require a Commercial Pilot?" Thread

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by JoseCuervo, Jan 27, 2015.

  1. poadeleted20

    poadeleted20 Deleted

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    Sure -- as long as nobody is compensating you for doing that. And that's covered in another interpretation.
     
  2. Flymeariver

    Flymeariver Pattern Altitude

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    So if said Turnip farmer happens to leave turnips accidentally and instead of people sending said turnips to him they send a check....that work?
     
  3. poadeleted20

    poadeleted20 Deleted

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    Furthering your own business without reimbursement is one thing. Providing air transportation of property for compensation is something else, and giving free delivery to your customer (obviously free if you sell the same product for the same price at your farm) involved creation of goodwill, and that's compensation.

    As I said earlier, if you think I'm wrong, please feel free to write to the Chief Counsel and get them to say I've got it wrong. But until then, I strongly suggest not acting on your belief unless you don't mind a significant enforcement action if the FAA catches you at it and the FAA Counsel says what I think they'll say.
     
  4. MikeELP

    MikeELP Pattern Altitude

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    As are many of us, Ron. But you go ahead and continue trying to convince yourself that you're right.

    :D
     
  5. poadeleted20

    poadeleted20 Deleted

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    61.113(b) is pretty clear:
    Or are you suggesting that "your product" isn't "property" and getting paid for your product isn't "compensation"? Personally, I don't see the FAA agreeing with you, but if you can get them to say that, I'll be happy to go along with what they say.
     
  6. poadeleted20

    poadeleted20 Deleted

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    The FAA doesn't care what you do with your car. They do care what you do with your plane. Again, you have the mistaken idea that the "incidental" clause somehow allows you to do with your plane anything which is legal to do with your car, and that just isn't so.
     
  7. poadeleted20

    poadeleted20 Deleted

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    :mad2:
     
  8. poadeleted20

    poadeleted20 Deleted

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    Tell you what -- you write to the Chief Counsel and use their reply to convince me that I'm wrong. Personally, I don't really care if Jose loses his ticket, only that he can't say I misled him into thinking that what he proposes to do is legal.
     
  9. Flymeariver

    Flymeariver Pattern Altitude

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    So how will the FAA come to find out those turnips were sold? I doubt the FAA has pitchforks ready at every airport and farmers market just waiting to catch people. Then again...I am not a CFI or FAA rep....just a curious person that hasn't got the impression in the talks I have had with real FAA reps that they are out to get us. The knowledge is nice to see though Ron...just have a hard time thinking the big wolf is at the door.
     
  10. RotorAndWing

    RotorAndWing Final Approach

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    Good luck on getting anyone in the FAA to pursue a "significant enforcement action" on something like the proposed turnip operation. The first Inspector that takes something like this to his FLM to open an EIR will get his work program re-evaluated for having too much time on his hands. :rolleyes:
     
  11. RotorDude

    RotorDude Pattern Altitude

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    The way I look at it, once you are into the gray area of parsing words and deciding where the actual boundary is between the need for commercial rating vs. a private pilot using his plane "incidental to his business", there are no hard and fast rules.
    The FAA does not rely on precedents for enforcement actions, only the rules as written, and interpret them with some discretion, as they see fit for a given situation.
    So it's really up to each pilot to read the regs, and the precedents and letters for background information and interpretation.
    I myself believe the Mays letter from 1977 (reproduced below and also quoted above), though a bit dated, still reflects the most thoughtful, rational and logical (i.e. common-sensical) interpretation of the relevant written regs (which haven't changed, to my knowledge).
    I think the key aspects are, are you getting paid to transport people and/or property, and how much of your job involves flying related to your work.
    Clearly the FAA goal is to require a commercial rating when you are transporting people or property for money, yet allow a private pilot to use his/her plane as an incidental part of the job.
    Obviously you are always at the whim of any (over)zealous government employee (e.g. Hoover), but in my own experience, the vast majority of FAA employees are good people, use common sense and actually want to make aviation both safe and productive. In other words, they are on our side.

     
  12. poadeleted20

    poadeleted20 Deleted

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    Never said there was a wolf at the door, just answer the original question of whether or not it was legal.
     
  13. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

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    All this for turnips. The guy must really like turnips.
     
  14. RotorAndWing

    RotorAndWing Final Approach

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    I can tell you from real experience gained on the other side of the fence that no Inspector in his right mind would pursue something like this, and even if he attempted it he could never get an EIR opened, it would die right there on the managers desk.
     
  15. poadeleted20

    poadeleted20 Deleted

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    You may well be right, but that doesn't change the answer to the original question of whether or not this would be legal per the regulations, only whether or not you'll get in trouble if you do it. And I don't see this as any different than the situation in the Mangiamele letter -- it's not legal, but it's unlikely anything will happen to you if you do it. But the fact that you might not get caught or violated if you did is not going to change my answer as to the legality of doing it -- that would take the Chief Counsel saying I'm wrong, and I'm perfectly happy to hear that if someone takes the time and effort to get that answer.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2015
  16. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    PLEASE DONT WRITE TO THE FAA CHIEF COUNSEL FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE OF SETTLING AN INTERNET ARGUMENT!!! :eek: :hairraise: :mad2: :yikes:
     
  17. RotorAndWing

    RotorAndWing Final Approach

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    I still contend the CC office hates internet forums...
     
  18. poadeleted20

    poadeleted20 Deleted

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    No argument there -- if Mangiamele hadn't written that letter, there's a lot we would still be doing. Unless, of course, that request will allow people to do things they otherwise would think isn't legal, such as instrument instructors logging their trainees' approaches for currency or CFI practical tests counting for flight reviews.

    But as I said some time ago, if you can't stand the answer, don't ask the question, and don't insult the person providing the answer just because you find the answer inconvenient. If you're not going to alter your behavior as a result of hearing that what you intend to do isn't legal, why did you ask that question at all? :dunno:
     
  19. Greg Bockelman

    Greg Bockelman Administrator Management Council Member

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    Ron, give it up. You aren't convincing anyone and you are just frustrating yourself.
     
  20. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

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    I'm kinda digg'n the whole turnip farming gig.....bet the Chief Counsel will too. :yes:
     
  21. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I don't know whether a private pilot can legally make the proposed flights or not, but from the standpoint of understanding the issue better, could those who think it would be illegal give some examples of flights that a private pilot COULD make under 61.113(b)?
     
  22. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I wouldn't be a bit surprised!
     
  23. poadeleted20

    poadeleted20 Deleted

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    You may be right as far as Jose and his supporters are concerned.

    Eppur si muove.
     
  24. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Why not?

    This is not like going to an attorney's office to ask a question and then arguing with the attorney. This is a discussion forum, not an attorney's office. I think most of us are here because we enjoy discussing aviation-related topics. That being the case, I think most of us are happy to have people pose questions that result in lively and interesting discussions.
     
  25. poadeleted20

    poadeleted20 Deleted

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    Sure.

    You're a computer technician, and your company needs you to go fix a client's computer in the next state. They tell you to go do it, so you take your plane and fly yourself there and back. When you're done, you get reimbursed for the operating cost of the flight plus your regular pay.

    You're a lawyer for your firm. You have to go two states over for a deposition. You and your secretary (who will record the deposition) get in your plane, and you fly it there and back. You collect half the expenses of the flight from your secretary, who gets reimbursed for that by the firm. You claim no expenses for your share of the flight (since you had a passenger -- see Mangiamele) but you still get your regular pay for the day.
     
  26. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I'm wondering if Jose might deliver some tequila along with the turnips! :D
     
  27. poadeleted20

    poadeleted20 Deleted

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    If the purpose is to learn, I'm OK with that. If the purpose is merely to start an argument so you can insult and denigrate anyone who gives you an answer you don't like, I'm not OK with that.
     
  28. MikeELP

    MikeELP Pattern Altitude

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    FTFY

    :D
     
  29. poadeleted20

    poadeleted20 Deleted

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    Think that's :D?
     
  30. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I hope you don't think those are the only two purposes that are possible. :rolleyes:

    This is not a classroom, and it's for sure not a classroom that you're in charge of.
     
  31. MikeELP

    MikeELP Pattern Altitude

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    Well, if you think it's :D, that's fine with me. Feel free to indulge yourself.

    I was simply pointing out that YOUR answer is not necessarily THE answer.

    Most kindly,

    Mike
     
  32. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

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    It's too bad the Chief Counsel's boss hasn't implemented similar procedures. Hahaha.
     
  33. Cpt_Kirk

    Cpt_Kirk En-Route

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    I just wasted my time reading this thread.

    For whom should I pursure legal action against in terms of financial compensation for said lost time?
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2015
  34. JoseCuervo

    JoseCuervo En-Route

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    Went bear hunting on Prince of Wales Island in Alaska once. There is a little town of Craig that is kind of the hub of the island, Groceries, car rental, service station, mechanics, bank, etc.

    We pull into town and this old guy that looks like Mr Haney comes up and asks what we need. For the rest of the week, no matter what we needed, "Mr Haney" had an affiliated business that could provide the service.

    We still refer to him as Mr Haney.
     
  35. JoseCuervo

    JoseCuervo En-Route

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    I am not sure why goodwill from a business is different than goodwill from my sister in law when I bring the aforementioned birthday cake. I really don't like my sister in law, but I try to make nice as she does buy some of my turnips each year.
     
  36. Flymeariver

    Flymeariver Pattern Altitude

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    Do you have pictures of sister in law eating that cake? Perhaps that will determine if the CC will hunt you down.
     
  37. JoseCuervo

    JoseCuervo En-Route

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    But it was earlier declared I couldn't go fetch a part for my turnip harvester across the state. I get no compensation from another party to fetch a part.



    I like think that dinner and a nice bottle of wine does not make a woman a prostitute, but, rather, someone who has lowering standards after alcohol.


    Her mom, my sister-in-law buys my turnips.



    Not to deliberately misunderstand, but , to attempt to further understanding. I have learned much from your contributions, thank you.
     
  38. JoseCuervo

    JoseCuervo En-Route

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    Aren't my sample turnips considered property! How can I fly with property?
     
  39. JoseCuervo

    JoseCuervo En-Route

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    Surprised at your banner towing answers.

    Towing Banner 1 is not incidental, is foreseeable, and involves flying the banner (property). Marketing my turnips and building brand awareness is huge.
     
  40. JoseCuervo

    JoseCuervo En-Route

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    I was hoping that the restaurant would have a big promotion for their Turnip Soup with the freshest turnips on earth, flown in fresh for the festival.