Annuals Vs engine change

Tom-D

Tom-D

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Tom-D
Your aircraft was annualed 1 Jan. and signed off as airworthy, you replaced the engine in June later that year with a Factory Remaned engine different serial number.

Does the engine need an annual sign off ????

Or does the return to service as airworthy suffice ?
 
Tom-D said:
Your aircraft was annualed 1 Jan. and signed off as airworthy, you replaced the engine in June later that year with a Factory Remaned engine different serial number.

Does the engine need an annual sign off ????

Or does the return to service as airworthy suffice ?
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In case Kgruber is not correct and this is not another one of your trick questions to start an inane line of questioning, I would hazard that the 'Annual' cycle on it starts day it goes into service and isn't due for further actions until the end of the cycle.
 
Henning said:
In case Kgruber is not correct and this is not another one of your trick questions to start an inane line of questioning, I would hazard that the 'Annual' cycle on it starts day it goes into service and isn't due for further actions until the end of the cycle.
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I was asked this question, by a reader of this page, they did not believe my answer, maybe they will believe you guys.
 
don__t_feed_the_troll___by_blag001-d5r7e47_zpsvfacjjy5.png
 
Tom-D said:
anyone not having the ability to answer the question would feel that way.
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Your posting history makes people feel that way, and your posting style is provocative of it, and people act on that provocation.

If you had started the thread with: "In another thread a guy is arguing that if you install a fresh engine between annual periods, it needs to be accompanied by an entry to put it in annual. What do you think?", the response you received would be much different. Kgruber answered it expecting a trick question right off the bat, I was suspicious and I didn't think he was accurate and should know better, but I played anyway, and no one else would even bother because they didn't want to get involved in yet another inane thread.
 
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so....why is an engine any different than any other installed device?
 
Tom-D said:
I think the return to service entry negates the requirement.

Now prove I'm right or wrong by FAR.
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Why does the only logical conclusion require explicit legal confirmation in writing? Is our society that lacking in the ability to have people figure out the most basic things for themselves? Are we that brainwashed as rule followers that we need a rule for every bloody decision? If so, we are wasting the planet.

Believe it or not, the FAA actually gives us a ****load of latitude to think for ourselves on all levels as private owner operator pilots.
 
I would guess that if Tom installed a new vacuum pump he would sign off an annual on it. :goofy::mad2:
Is he trolling? You bet!
 
Norman said:
I would guess that if Tom installed a new vacuum pump he would sign off an annual on it. :goofy::mad2:
Is he trolling? You bet!
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If that is how you feel, I guess I caught one norman fish.
 
Tom,
While I respect your accomplishments and experience, your postings of the last few months are disconcerting. They are quite below the level that I had come to expect from your threads. I hope things are OK with you.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
tradition....and OWTs.:rolleyes:


....and +30 years ago it use to be that way.:dunno:
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When I worked at a CRS in the early 90s, rubber stamps were still in use. The standard stamp in the industry used for Annual and 100 Hour inspections had a circled choice between them, and airframe/engine choices. That probably has a lot to do with the persistence of the issue. I had heard before that it isn't required, but never researched it to settle it in my mind because it's irrelevant. The IA will supply me with what he thinks I need. If the FAA asks why there is no entry in the engine logs, I can show them the entry in the airframe log and tell them, "The IA doesn't think it needs it." At that point it's not my problem.
 
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An installed engine that is put in service and documented as airworthy does not require a new airframe annual. There, I said it.
 
Unit74 said:
An installed engine that is put in service and documented as airworthy does not require a new airframe annual. There, I said it.
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IMHO that is the correct method.

Under FAR 91,409 the aircraft needs an annual, there is no mention of any component part of the aircraft, but it does say the annual shall be done In Accordance with FAR 43.D which has the minimum items to be inspected. Once the annual is complete, it's good for 12 calendar months. Replacing the engine is simply maintenance, and gets a return to service as any other maintenance would.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
ok....so which part of that is the "aircraft"?
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There in lies the question, can you sign off the aircraft as airworthy with out the engine installed?

IMHO no, you can't do the run up as required. So it gets an UN-airworthy and the engine installer gets to do the testing and return to service.
 
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An annual sign off goes in the airframe log. If you want to put extra log entries in the prop and engine logs, go for it although the one log entry in the airframe log is all that's required. If you get a different engine or prop and they get installed, you'll have new logs for them and since they don't need "annuals" you don't have to write anything about them being "in annual." The installing mechanic signs the return to service for the installation and you're good to go for the rest of the year when the annual for the aircraft comes due again. The installing mechanic, by signing the return to service for the installation is certifying that the parts/appliances are airworthy and any ADs are current.
 
Tom-D said:
There in lies the question, can you sign off the aircraft as airworthy with out the engine installed?
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Without an engine it doesn't conform to its type certificate so it is not airworthy.
 
Witmo said:
An annual sign off goes in the airframe log. If you want to put extra log entries in the prop and engine logs, go for it although the one log entry in the airframe log is all that's required. If you get a different engine or prop and they get installed, you'll have new logs for them and since they don't need "annuals" you don't have to write anything about them being "in annual." The installing mechanic signs the return to service for the installation and you're good to go for the rest of the year when the annual for the aircraft comes due again. The installing mechanic, by signing the return to service for the installation is certifying that the parts/appliances are airworthy and any ADs are current.
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What he said,, eloquent Sumitch
 
Witmo said:
An annual sign off goes in the airframe log. If you want to put extra log entries in the prop and engine logs, go for it although the one log entry in the airframe log is all that's required. If you get a different engine or prop and they get installed, you'll have new logs for them and since they don't need "annuals" you don't have to write anything about them being "in annual." The installing mechanic signs the return to service for the installation and you're good to go for the rest of the year when the annual for the aircraft comes due again. The installing mechanic, by signing the return to service for the installation is certifying that the parts/appliances are airworthy and any ADs are current.
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If you change the engine with another S/N engine the IA that signed off the annual did not see the new engine. The annual that he signed off on was on the old engine not the one in the plane now. Not sure how you can assume the annual is still good without a IA making an entry in the log for the annual part of the inspection on the engine.:nono:
 
brien23 said:
If you change the engine with another S/N engine the IA that signed off the annual did not see the new engine. The annual that he signed off on was on the old engine not the one in the plane now. Not sure how you can assume the annual is still good without a IA making an entry in the log for the annual part of the inspection on the engine.:nono:
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YGTBSM! :rolleyes2:

:rofl::rofl::rofl:
 
brien23 said:
If you change the engine with another S/N engine the IA that signed off the annual did not see the new engine. The annual that he signed off on was on the old engine not the one in the plane now. Not sure how you can assume the annual is still good without a IA making an entry in the log for the annual part of the inspection on the engine.:nono:
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Because the Annual is an inspection that covers a snapshot in time. It is not something that is maintained through the year. The plane gets repaired and maintained, and once a year someone inspects it to make sure that everything done in the prior year is still up to snuff. If the new engine was properly installed, paperwork and all, a new annual is issued for that snap shot in time.
 
If the IA signed each each airframe, engine, and propeller logbook with individual entries using the "airframe annual", "engine annual", and "propeller annual", then each of those has distinct annual sign offs and expirations. If he signed the airframe logbook with the phrase "aircraft annual" instead of airframe, then each part does not require a separate annual sign off. Semantics, but important ones.

Installing an overhauled engine (not the one that was on the plane at the aircraft annual) requires that the engine have an annual inspection of its own recorded in its logbook, since it has not been documented to meet the annual inspection requirements prior to installation on the airframe in question.
 
Witmo said:
Without an engine it doesn't conform to its type certificate so it is not airworthy.
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Remember the last sentence of the airworthy statement?

" and in a condition for safe operation"

With out the engine installed, it simply isn't.

so the discrepancy list given to the owner, has the missing engine as one of the discrepancies, when installed and returned to service the aircraft becomes safe to operate thus airworthy.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
I guess you weren't kidding....:rolleyes::rolleyes2::rolleyes:


Remind me again who determines airworthiness of all these components that get removed & installed in between annual inspections?
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Well, according to these geniuses, every time you R&R anything the IA that annualed the plane previously must sign off on it. :rolleyes2: :nonod:

:rofl:
 
RotorAndWing said:
Well, according to these geniuses, every time you R&R anything the IA that annualed the plane previously must sign off on it. :rolleyes2: :nonod:

:rofl:
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Who said that? or are you twisting the readings to fit your demeanor.
 
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