Android AWOL from OSH

After reading all this, I'm afraid we are confronting two unresolved -- and perhaps unresolvable -- problems WRT Android aviation apps.

1. Inherent laziness. Developers don't want to be bothered with writing two versions of their app.

2. A tiny, shrinking pilot market that makes even a stellar hit like ForeFlight marginally profitable.

These two cycles are working together to keep the software nearly all-Apple, exactly the way all newspaper layout software remained all-Apple -- right to the bitter end of newspapers.

Thus, even if Android comes to dominate the world, the way Windows did, we may never see anything beyond Garmin Pilot and Naviator written for it. It's sad, but logical.
 
Jay Honeck said:
Thus, even if Android comes to dominate the world, the way Windows did, we may never see anything beyond Garmin Pilot and Naviator written for it. It's sad, but logical.
Click to expand...

There is also Avilution for Android.

I've used Naviator but it still lacks the full flight planning/filing capabilities that ForeFlight has. Avilution is closer to a full EFB in that regard.

At the moment, I use Avare for relatively short VFR trips which is an amazing app considering that it is free.
 
JohnAJohnson said:
I stand corrected, thanks for clarifying. Net result is the same though - I still wouldn't buy either product unless I could "fire" one without loosing the other.
Click to expand...

I actually sort of like the "packaged" aspect, no worries of what will work best together.
 
The phrase "every dog has his day" didn't originate by accident. For years we eagerly waited for the next release of Windows and replaced old Dell laptops with new Dell laptops. Now we don't.

If you're developing apps for the GA pilot population instead of the world population, it's probably not a bad idea to look around at the hardware used by the predominant user group and take advantage of the deck that is already stacked in your favor. Foreflight has nicely done so and carved out a position in the industry provides a nice launching pad for whatever they decide to develop in the future. I'd rather be in their shoes that any others if I were in that business.

Those who think Garmin is unassailable might want to study their origin at the time they were an up-start and B/K was king of the hill.

Jay Honeck said:
After reading all this, I'm afraid we are confronting two unresolved -- and perhaps unresolvable -- problems WRT Android aviation apps.

1. Inherent laziness. Developers don't want to be bothered with writing two versions of their app.

2. A tiny, shrinking pilot market that makes even a stellar hit like ForeFlight marginally profitable.

These two cycles are working together to keep the software nearly all-Apple, exactly the way all newspaper layout software remained all-Apple -- right to the bitter end of newspapers.

Thus, even if Android comes to dominate the world, the way Windows did, we may never see anything beyond Garmin Pilot and Naviator written for it. It's sad, but logical.
Click to expand...
 
JohnAJohnson said:
I stand corrected, thanks for clarifying. Net result is the same though - I still wouldn't buy either product unless I could "fire" one without loosing the other.
Click to expand...

Same is true for Garmin (GDL 39 and Garmin Pilot).

In fact, I think the only tablet EFB software that supports multiple ADS-B receivers is WingX.
 
... Stratus is not closed ... except their API is not publicly documented.
Click to expand...
"Anybody can use it but we won't tell you how and we won't promise to disclose API changes." That's pretty much the definition of a closed system IMO.

The "agreement" you speak of does not exist...
Click to expand...
Really? To me this one walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, so I'd be pretty sure it is a duck. Is your statement an opinion or are there verifiable facts that support it?

I actually sort of like the "packaged" aspect, no worries of what will work best together.
Click to expand...
That's the tradeoff. An integrated package can be expected to work well. The cost though, is not just premium prices hardware from the closed-system vendor, it is also lack of access to innovation from other vendors. Look at Levil hardware, for example: http://www.aviation.levil.com/Software.htm Garmin and Foreflight are conspicuous by their absence. Life is a tradeoff.
 
airdale said:
Really? To me this one walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, so I'd be pretty sure it is a duck. Is your statement an opinion or are there verifiable facts that support it?
Click to expand...

It is not my opinion. It is fact. I don't think there's any way for you to to verify it though (it's not like anyone writes news articles saying "this thing doesn't exist").
 
airdale said:
That's the tradeoff. An integrated package can be expected to work well. The cost though, is not just premium prices hardware from the closed-system vendor, it is also lack of access to innovation from other vendors. Look at Levil hardware, for example: http://www.aviation.levil.com/Software.htm Garmin and Foreflight are conspicuous by their absence. Life is a tradeoff.
Click to expand...

True, but you have to admit, that Garmin, Foreflight and Stratus are fairly smart to set it up this way. I would likely do exactly the same if I were in that business. Why "open" your system when you have a strong corner on the market? Foreflight and Stratus in particular seem to independently be the front runners in their segments, so it makes sense to be bound to each other either by contract or mutual understanding so as neither side could dilute the others market share.
 
MSPAviator said:
I've used Naviator but it still lacks the full flight planning/filing capabilities that ForeFlight has.
Click to expand...

Can you elaborate on this for me? I'll admit that ForeFlight has more full-featured flight planning capabilities but Naviator does still have some, as well as the ability to file flight plans via duats.

Cheers,
Mike
 
Why "open" your system when you have a strong corner on the market?
Click to expand...
Absolutely true. Standards favor customers and small vendors, not the dominant players. I have been involved as a representative to a couple of national standards bodies where we were moving industries towards open standards. Without fail, the share leaders attended faithfully and worked tenaciously to pour sand into the gears of progress. It is only when the customers band together and say "Hell no, we won't take it any more!" that standardization happens.

If you want a recent example, read about Microsoft's moderately successful attempts to block a vendor-independent EU standard for word processing file formats. They are slowly losing the proprietary-format battle though. A Good Thing.
 
Jay Honeck said:
After reading all this, I'm afraid we are confronting two unresolved -- and perhaps unresolvable -- problems WRT Android aviation apps.

1. Inherent laziness. Developers don't want to be bothered with writing two versions of their app.

2. A tiny, shrinking pilot market that makes even a stellar hit like ForeFlight marginally profitable.

These two cycles are working together to keep the software nearly all-Apple, exactly the way all newspaper layout software remained all-Apple -- right to the bitter end of newspapers.

Thus, even if Android comes to dominate the world, the way Windows did, we may never see anything beyond Garmin Pilot and Naviator written for it. It's sad, but logical.
Click to expand...
If you wrote software for a living Jay you wouldn't erasing number 1 from that list. I don't think you grasp how much work it takes to develop good software for multiple platforms. Like. Three times the amount of work, at best. It's also an entirely different platform you must know and it's difficult as a developer to be THE BEST at different platforms that totally differ from each other in every manner.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Same is true for Garmin (GDL 39 and Garmin Pilot).
Click to expand...

Yep, and I won't be buying those either.

flyingcheesehead said:
In fact, I think the only tablet EFB software that supports multiple ADS-B receivers is WingX.
Click to expand...

There are lots of receivers that are compatible with lots of software. Really, Garmin's and Foreflight's non-compatibility stance (real or happenstance) is rare. Both companies have the brand to think they can pull it off, and from some of the sound arguments presented here, they might. But if they do, it will be bucking history. AOL for example, had a huge brand 14 years ago, and decided to keep the wall around their garden. Want to IM? You must use our handheld device. Want to email? You must use our client. Etc., etc. Five years later they totally lost their once powerful brand and customer base. Foreflight can learn from history here, or risk becoming irrelevant. There is a place for someone with a vision, full of **** and vinegar, and authoring in the Android environment. At the rate they are going, I see Avilution's AviationMaps as a contender.

Here are four ADS-B receivers, supporting multiple platforms and titles.

Dual XGPS170
AOPA FlyQ EFB
Avilution for Android devices Avilution for Android devices
Bendix King myWingMan EFB Bendix King myWingMan EFB
eKneeboard eKneeboard
Flight Guide iEFB Flight Guide iEFB
GRT Avionics EFIS: HX, HXr and SX software GRT Avionics EFIS: HX, HXr and SX software
Naviator for Android devices Naviator for Android devices
Pilotbrief Optima Pilotbrief Optima
WingX Pro7 for Apple devices WingX Pro7 for Apple devices
Coming soon
Anywhere Map for Apple and Android devices
EFB for Apple devices
Fltplan.com for Apple devices
Mobile Flight Deck from Jeppesen for Apple devices

Sagetech Electronic Flight Bag (EFB) App Compatability
Hilton Software - WingX Pro7
SkyVision Extreme - Xtreme Vision 3D
PCAvionics - MountainScope
X Avionics - Xavion
AvSoft Inc - AvPlan EFB
Adventure Pilot – iFly 720 FL11B
AnyWhere Education-eKneeboard
Coming Soon
AOPA - FlyQ EFB
BendixKing- MyWingMan
Excentra Solutions - Class 1
Flight Plan - FltPlan.com
Airguide Publications Inc. - Flight Guide iEFB
Global Nav Source - EFB
CloudAhoy, Inc - CloudAhoy

SkyRadar
PCAvionics MountainScope, PocketPC/TabletPC software
WingX Pro, iPad software
iFly 700 (connects USB), iFly 700 GPS™ device by Adventure Pilot™
iFly 720 (connects Wi-Fi), iFly 720 GPS™ device by Adventure Pilot™
Avilution, Android™ software
Sport SX EFIS by GRT Avionics, Sport SX Electronic Flight Information System

iLevil
WingX Pro7
Xavion
Air Navigation
MyWingman (Bendix King)
FlyQ EFB
Sky-Map
AirTrack
iHUD Remote
Gyronaut
dFlight-10XL
AHRS Utility
Avilution AviationMaps
iFly 720
Mountain Scope (PC avionics)
 
jmn444 said:
True, but you have to admit, that Garmin, Foreflight and Stratus are fairly smart to set it up this way. I would likely do exactly the same if I were in that business. Why "open" your system when you have a strong corner on the market? Foreflight and Stratus in particular seem to independently be the front runners in their segments, so it makes sense to be bound to each other either by contract or mutual understanding so as neither side could dilute the others market share.
Click to expand...

To understand "Why open?", See my example of AOL, above.
 
I don't know that AOL is a comparable situation. The entire population wanted to text and email, and it was a rapidly growing market at the time, what percentage wants to have a Nexus 7 or ipad on their yoke and how many new consumers of it are coming to the table annually?
 
I do understand the pros and cons of each approach, I just think that the current market leaders are actually approaching it correctly for the market.
 
Jay Honeck said:
1. Inherent laziness. Developers don't want to be bothered with writing two versions of their app.
Click to expand...

I suppose if there was only one Android, it would be easier but with the tinkering Google allows and encourages, it is more complex than dealing with the various iOS versions that Apple keeps control over. :dunno:

Cheers
 
X3 Skier said:
I suppose if there was only one Android, it would be easier but with the tinkering Google allows and encourages, it is more complex than dealing with the various iOS versions that Apple keeps control over. :dunno:

Cheers
Click to expand...

Okay, so write your app for Android 4.3. Only the newest devices support this latest, greatest version, so you only have to worry about the Nexus 7, Samsung's latest, etc. You're talking about a relative handful of 7" and 10" tablets, and those are the devices pilots will be using.

Honestly, with 300,000 apps in the Android market, I fail to see why this is such a challenge. Garmin seems to have it figured out.
 
Jay Honeck said:
Honestly, with 300,000 apps in the Android market, I fail to see why this is such a challenge. Garmin seems to have it figured out.
Click to expand...

Garmin has a lot more resources available to tackle Android, and their Android offering still lags behind their iOS product... And what we don't know is whether they've made a profit at all.
 
I went to order my new Nexus 7 FHD from Newegg.... sold out. Amazon... will ship in 1-2 months. They must be selling to someone. :confused:
 
NaviatorMike said:
Can you elaborate on this for me? I'll admit that ForeFlight has more full-featured flight planning capabilities but Naviator does still have some, as well as the ability to file flight plans via duats.
Click to expand...

I signed up to evaluate all the major platforms a few months ago. Naviator was comparable to Pilot in many ways, but one way where it really lagged was in navigation.

I found that in Naviator if you worked your way into some screen, it was very hard to get to another screen. You had to keep hitting back until you were at the main menu. The problem is that if you went through 14 screens to get wherever you were, you had to hit back 14 times even if that screen was only one level down from the main menu.

The Android UI guidelines (granted, ones that are only a year old) recommend that the back button be used exactly how Naviator is using it, but that additionally a button be present in the top-left corner that takes you up the menu tree towards the root. Usually hitting it only once or twice is needed to get to the main menu. Garmin Pilot has a flat menu tree so the top-left button always is the main menu. That means that no matter where you are it only takes two taps to get to just about anywhere else. Pilot still lets you jump from one section to another, but the main menu is always accessible.

I can't give a specific example since it has been a little while since I had access to the time-limited demos. I might sign up for another round when I'm ready to commit. To illustrate I'll make up a fake example of how this sort of thing can happen - I'm not saying that this particular scenario came up - just that it is illustrative of how you can work your way into a rabbit hole in an application.

Imagine your app has a flight plan, moving map, airport directory, weather, etc. You click on an airport on the map and up comes its directory entry. That has a tab for weather. You click on a nearby airport METAR and up comes another airport directory entry. You click on the button on its weather for local radar and up comes the local radar centered on that airport, with color-coded METARs. You click on another radar and up comes the weather page for that airport in directory mode. Now you want to go back to the moving map. If you have direct access to the main menu that is two taps. If you don't, then you have to hit back a bunch of times reloading every screen you visited along the way. Hit it once too many and the app will terminate entirely if it doesn't prompt for confirmation.

App developers should make sure that it is always easy to quickly access the moving map from anywhere in the app, or other key screens (nearest airports, scratchpad, and so on). GPS vendors have addressed this for years - often putting dedicated buttons on units to directly access key screens when you're buried in menus.
 
MSPAviator said:
At the moment, I use Avare for relatively short VFR trips which is an amazing app considering that it is free.
Click to expand...

Indeed. I've yet to commit to any of the commercial products as I'm still in training, but I've been using Avare when practicing on the sim and it has steadily been becoming much more functional. When I first looked at it about the only thing it did was display a chart with the plane icon. Now it has terrain warnings (Pilot lacks these), and geo-referenced taxi diagrams (an add on for many apps), and they're apparently working on geo-referenced approach diagrams. It isn't as polished as pilot, and the weather is completely lacking, but it is steadily catching up.

Open source software has one advantage besides price - it never really dies. If the GA market shrinks to a point where vendors start failing, Avare will always be around. It doesn't belong to anybody per se - the source is on github and anybody can pick it up and carry it forward or take it in a different direction. Now, being dependent on donations tends to limit investment to spare-time work, but there are many open source software packages that are far more complex than Foreflight/Pilot/etc that were built entirely by volunteers. The main limitation for aviation is the small community. I think that simple apps (proprietary or open source), kits, and things like the streamlined certification process the FAA is supposed to roll out may help make general aviation more sustainable. If a kit plane can be built new for $70k, we might be in even better shape in 10 years when they start selling used.
 
Jay Honeck said:
Okay, so write your app for Android 4.3. Only the newest devices support this latest, greatest version, so you only have to worry about the Nexus 7, Samsung's latest, etc. You're talking about a relative handful of 7" and 10" tablets, and those are the devices pilots will be using.

Honestly, with 300,000 apps in the Android market, I fail to see why this is such a challenge. Garmin seems to have it figured out.
Click to expand...
This isn't the hotel business. The best analogy I can give with a few seconds of thought is- your iPad customers need a room with plumbing with 1 inch plastic pipes, plaster walls, and 220V outlets with European plugs and use token ring for their internet; all measurements are in English units. Your Android customers use 1/2 inch copper pipes, drywall walls,120 V outlets with USA plugs and ethernet for internet, all measurements in metric. (I know this would never happen in real life, but it is analogous to the computer world). To serve both sets of customers, you'd need two sets of tools for everything. You'd need plumbers with skills with both plastic and copper pipes- maybe two different plumbers. IT people with skillz in both ethernet and token ring. People with more skills cost more or you need to hire two sets of people (more cost again). If your front desk needs to supply different breakfasts for the two different users, it takes more time and effort to deal with these two groups. Add in two billing systems as well. Now let divide the "Android" rooms some more- some use switches as we use them, other have on/off reversed and you need to keep that room consistant. Some Android customers are allergic to peanuts and some must have them, and you need to keep it straight. You can see the complexity, I'm sure, even though it is a very imperfect example for the hotel world, but it does model the computer/tablet world. The hotel analogy is that a large chain could more easily support this expense, smaller hotels can't.


Following your suggestion to write to the latest device, you are limiting your market to whoever has the money to buy the latest device. Read the threads where people are still using iPad 1. The latest Androids that are useful still cost a few hundred dollars. A lot of those 300,000 apps run only on Android. A lot of the dual platform apps are games like Chess or calculators that are more easily run cross platform, or are just encapsulated web browsers.

If Jesse says it costs more and requires a lot more effort, I wouldn't be very quick to question him as he makes his living doing this stuff just as I'd think hard before telling you how to run Amelia's Landing.
 
Just thought I would share some high level directional numbers for our mildly successful, free, multi-platform app. Helps keep me fresh as to how my customers behave. iOS beats android 2:1 in active usage, and everyone else is lower than Android. Greater than 1 million droid sessions evaluated over a fairly recent time frame.

Android firmware
4.3 - less than 1% (I guess our users aren't on the bleeding edge). I have more 2.1 users than 4.3.

In the top 10 (not ranked)
2.2
2.3 (released Dec. 6, 2010)
4.0
4.1
4.2

The only users I wouldn't mind firing would be < 2.3 as they aren't that significant of a percentage of total sessions. But, they are on a dead branch of the app that we still bug fix as servers and APIs change.

Apple top 10 (not ranked)
5.0 (released June 6, 2011)
5.1
6.0
6.1
 
Cap'n Jack said:
... The best analogy I can give ..
Click to expand...
Bravo! A very good one, too.

Although I think a herd instinct (dare I say lemming?) is keeping small aviation app developers from writing for Android, it is certainly the case that 99% of them could not support a full dual-platform effort. It would be interesting to know how much of the code base is shared between the two Garmin teams. From outside, it looks like the answer is "Not much."
 
rich0 said:
I found that in Naviator if you worked your way into some screen, it was very hard to get to another screen. You had to keep hitting back until you were at the main menu. The problem is that if you went through 14 screens to get wherever you were, you had to hit back 14 times even if that screen was only one level down from the main menu.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the feedback, Rich. You raise a good point and I will make sure this problem gets addressed.

Cheers,
Mike
 
NaviatorMike said:
Thanks for the feedback, Rich. You raise a good point and I will make sure this problem gets addressed.
Click to expand...

And this is what I like about small businesses. :)

When I do get around to purchasing a subscription I'll be sure to give Naviator another shot with this in mind...
 
Wasn't Naviator being demo'ed at OSH by Levil Technology with an AHRS display running split screen with its moving map on a N7 getting its signal from an iLevil device?
 
bkspero said:
Wasn't Naviator being demo'ed at OSH by Levil Technology with an AHRS display running split screen with its moving map on a N7 getting its signal from an iLevil device?
Click to expand...

If so, I would have loved to have seen it!

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
 
Jay Honeck said:
If so, I would have loved to have seen it!

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...

Mike@Naviator should be able to confirm or correct that information. I checked their website and there is a recent new version claiming AHRS capability.
 
Naviator does seem to work with my iLevil, very happy to see this integration. My plane is currently in annual, so I haven't been able to fly with this combination yet.

Sent from my mobile device.
 
bkspero said:
Mike@Naviator should be able to confirm or correct that information. I checked their website and there is a recent new version claiming AHRS capability.
Click to expand...

Yes, that's right. A "preview" version of Naviator + iLevil was on display in the iLevil booth at AirVenture and we released an updated version to Google Play earlier this week.

Cheers,
Mike
 
jesse said:
If you wrote software for a living Jay you wouldn't erasing number 1 from that list. I don't think you grasp how much work it takes to develop good software for multiple platforms. Like. Three times the amount of work, at best. It's also an entirely different platform you must know and it's difficult as a developer to be THE BEST at different platforms that totally differ from each other in every manner.
Click to expand...

Jay needs another hotel to run at the same time as his current one. ;)
 
Jay Honeck said:
Good article. I've never missed anything about the iPad I sold.
Click to expand...
Meh. It's a matter of taste. I have both. As far as I'm concerned, it's 6 of one; 1/2 dozen of the other. I don't use that many apps.

Like any computing system, the best platform is the one that lets you get your desired tasks done.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Like any computing system, the best platform is the one that lets you get your desired tasks done.
Click to expand...

The best platform is the one that lets you get your desired tasks done...with the least amount of aggravation.

I found Apple OS to be nothing but a continual stream of aggravation. I understand they've made progress in the last upgrade, but this article makes it clear that they have a long way to go before iOS matches the power and flexibility of Android.
 
Jay Honeck said:
The best platform is the one that lets you get your desired tasks done...with the least amount of aggravation.

I found Apple OS to be nothing but a continual stream of aggravation. I understand they've made progress in the last upgrade, but this article makes it clear that they have a long way to go before iOS matches the power and flexibility of Android.
Click to expand...

Just depends what you're trying to do. As an iMac/Macbook/iPad/iPhone user their ecosystem provides a great experience where everything is coupled together and just works. I personally love iTunes and have never had a problem.
 
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