American Express

[Rushie]

There are multiple scores. Each industry - sometimes each financial institution - has it customized to them. Neither FICO nor the institutions will tell you that without your asking multiple times. Just saying "834 on a scale of 500" doesn't mean much, other than whatever scoring system they're using at the time gives you an 834. It may be an entirely different score for your insurance company (and yes, insurance rates are based on scores in many places, including Texas) than for your bank than for AmEx than for a Visa card. Some weight on-time payments more, some weigh total outstanding more, and some weigh long-term (mortgage) differently than revolving.

I recall getting a car insurance renewal in Texas with a credit score above 820 (per the credit bureau), and being told that I didn't qualify for the best rate due to the score. At the time, they wouldn't disclose the score but told me if it were 10 points better I'd get the best rate. They also informed me that they calculated score differently. But wouldn't tell me how to improve. And this was with a nearly perfect driving record (and being with that company for 25 years). It was finally the state insurance regulator that told me that each company used a slightly different score and that the scoring criteria were approved by the state but could not be disclosed because they were proprietary.

AmEx has revised some of their policies and interest rates. I have an AmEx card that's paid monthly, and I don't use the "pay over time" feature. But I do recall seeing some notice in the last bill about changing rates if you use those features.

It's also true that AmEx has a multitude of cards - some their own, some co-branded with others (hotels, banks, merchants, and the like). Each of those carry their own terms. And some of the cost of those cards is related to the benefits provided.

What irks me more are merchants that make unrealistic payment deadlines and mail the bill late enough that you have about 2 days to pay. I get that they want to force people to electronic payments, but I have no interest in giving them unfettered access to my checking account.

Thanks for the great explanation of that. Also I hear you about bill timing. Our water bill comes about 7 days before the due date. I use a credit union in NC to bill pay which sends paper checks because this little town isn't on their electronic pay system. It takes 6 days for mail to get from there to here. If I put the bill down for only a day or two they end up getting the check late and it crosses with the disconnect notice. Every other month I get the notice they are turning off our water and then nothing happens because they get the check and they always waive the late fee because they saw it was postmarked before the due date. And no I am not going to get in the car and drive them the payment nor write a check, put a stamp on it and walk it to my mailbox. That's the Stone Age way of doing it. No local bank either, I love my credit union.

 

[Anymouse]

I really couldn't tell you what the interest rate is on any of my cards without looking it up on a statement. I pay off every month, so it really means nothing to me.

 

[Sundancer]

I've gone pretty much all cash, with Amex online and at the gas pump. Backup credit union Visa for those that don't take Amex. Absolutley do NOT use my debit card except at my bank's ATM. And NO auto-pays from my checking account.

It's not that I'm chasing AMEX awards, just reducing my footprint for fraud. Same reason for my credit freezes at the credit bureaus. Nothing is 100%, but I stll lock the front door, even if a window upstairs has a brken lock.

 

[JCranford]

What 'risk' do I take by using a credit card ?

The ‘risk’ that you’ll be one of the majority of Americans that DONT pay it off religiously every month and therefore start the cycle of paying the bank for the ‘privilege’ of using their money.

 

[luvflyin]

Credit utilization rate has a big influence on your score. This is the ratio between what the total credit limit that has been reported to the bureaus and what you actually owe against that limit at the time the score is calculated. The higher the ratio, the more it drags the score down.

Ours has run at about zero, for more than 15 years now.

So not having debt can lower you score? I’ve got 5 credit cards and they range from from 12,000 to 20,000 limits. Is that what is dragging my score down?

 

[Ken Ibold]

I figured suit yourself, here is my amex and rang up a pile of miles on my account.

When my kids reached driving age, I used the AMEX buyer service to negotiate the price on a new Rogue for the kids to drive. When I went to the dealer to pick it up, I wanted to put it on the Amex card to get the miles. The dealer only let me do 10k. Bummer.

 

[weilke]

The ‘risk’ that you’ll be one of the majority of Americans that DONT pay it off religiously every month and therefore start the cycle of paying the bank for the ‘privilege’ of using their money.

Let me see, I haven't done that in 25 years of using credit cards, but next month I am going to suddenly stop paying my bills ? Nope, zero percent risk of that happening.

 

[Matthew K]

So not having debt can lower you score? I’ve got 5 credit cards and they range from from 12,000 to 20,000 limits. Is that what is dragging my score down?

No, the higher the available credit the better. You could have 200k in available credit and have a carry over balance of $0, and that would be great for your score. @Craig said it a bit backwards, the higher the ratio the better for your score. What he meant was the closer your carry over debt is to your available credit the worse.

Of course having some manageable debt to help establish/continue a history of good payments is always good.

 

[JCranford]

Let me see, I haven't done that in 25 years of using credit cards, but next month I am going to suddenly stop paying my bills ? Nope, zero percent risk of that happening.

Good, then you’re in the minority that does it. Congratulations!

 

[Jared V]

Anyone using the AMEX Platinum? I travel around the world pretty frequently and I've heard it's worth the high annual fee for frequent travelers.

 

[Anymouse]

Anyone using the AMEX Platinum? I travel around the world pretty frequently and I've heard it's worth the high annual fee for frequent travelers.

I'm using it and have no complaints. It paid for my Trusted Traveler status and has gotten me into airport lounges around the world.

 

[SoCal RV Flyer]

AMEX is my main card, I use it for EVERYTHING...2% cash back and in 8 years I’ve never once paid interest, a fee, or anything else, yet they pay me up to $1000 every year. All you guys paying interest and fees are saving me a fortune! Lol

Yeah, that's crazy to think that...if I pay off my balance every month...I'm getting a one-month interest-free loan up to a $22K balance, and I'm making rewards money on top of that. Is this a great country or what?

I'm good with a Chase VISA. They've never tried to ding me with an unjustified charge or fee.

 

[denverpilot]

But you’ll happily be that guy that chases that same 2% cashback bonus by using s CC. The guy above somewhere that’s getting $1000 cashback had to risk $50,000 on a credit card to get his ‘reward’. Not really worth the effort if you ask me. Run the AmEx thru the shredder!

Sounds Dave Ramsey-ish. Not that he’s wrong for the addicts he’s treating. Behavior change requires a commitment.

We have a couple of cards, and no debt. I use them for the minimal but useful catastrophic travel insurance and warranty extensions on big ticket items.

Buy something on them for that and go to pay it immediately, I’m mostly just annoyed I can’t pay one of them the same day... their system won’t let me because the transaction is always “Pending” for a couple of days. Their system won’t let you pre-pay either.

But anyway... yeah, if you’re breaking an addition they need to be shredded and put in the trash. Cash back isn’t worth it. But if you’ve been cash-and-carry for more than two decades, you probably have your payoff system down to a science.

I got an alert last week that there was a tiny balance on one of them. I immediately logged in and was like “WTF...”

Toll road. LOL. I normally avoid it like the plague but between my wife and I over six months or so, we’d driven it occasionally and they finally billed for $25. I even had that piddly number in the budget. Paid it from that set aside money and chuckled.

 

[Craig]

The utilization ratio/rate is a percentage of credit used vs credit available. For example, if you had 10,000$ available and 1,000 outstanding debt, you would be at a utilization ratio of 10%. Now same available, but 7,900$ of debt, then you would be at 79% utilization.

 

[luvflyin]

The utilization ratio/rate is a percentage of credit used vs credit available. For example, if you had 10,000$ available and 1,000 outstanding debt, you would be at a utilization ratio of 10%. Now same available, but 7,900$ of debt, then you would be at 79% utilization.

Is the point how much you ‘might’ borrow in the future is more of bad indicator than how much you already have borrowed?

 

[Jeff Oslick]

I think it is not advertised because it is a violation of the merchant agreement with each credit card company if they do offer a cash discount. Don't know know that for a fact; just what I've heard. I do see some small businesses imposing a minimum amount, like $10, on credit card purchases. And also a surcharge of a few percent on large purchases.

The courts ruled a few years ago that the merchant agreements that restricted cash discounts were illegal. Still, it is too much of a hassle for most consumer businesses to deal with, as it tends to offend customers who use CCs, even though they see it at gas stations all the time. Business-to-business transactions is where you can more commonly negotiate a discount.

 

[denverpilot]

Is the point how much you ‘might’ borrow in the future is more of bad indicator than how much you already have borrowed?

Available unsecured credit is a factor in their calculation, but if you look at it closely, the total income to credit issued ratio trumps all their other numbers.

That’s why most people if they get serious, can dig out of massive debt holes in less than five years. Lending is always eventually is limited by income.

The bigger your shovel, the larger the hole they’ll ket you dig and climb down into.

 

[tawood]

Yeah, that's crazy to think that...if I pay off my balance every month...I'm getting a one-month interest-free loan up to a $22K balance, and I'm making rewards money on top of that. Is this a great country or what?

I'm good with a Chase VISA. They've never tried to ding me with an unjustified charge or fee.

My Capital One Visa is my Amex back-up card. The Amex is 2% back, the Visa is 1%, so the Amex gets priority, but not everyone takes Amex. So I end up with about $1000 a year back from Amex, and about $150 a year from Visa.

 

[tawood]

But you’ll happily be that guy that chases that same 2% cashback bonus by using s CC. The guy above somewhere that’s getting $1000 cashback had to risk $50,000 on a credit card to get his ‘reward’. Not really worth the effort if you ask me. Run the AmEx thru the shredder!

I wouldn't call it risk...the money is in the bank, I'm just delaying payment for one month, to get cash back. 6 years ago when I was getting divorced, I could see in my budget that things were gonna get tight, so I sold off some less-liquid assets to be sure I didn't have an interest payment. That's the closest I ever got to paying CC interest. But in 8 years it hasn't happened yet, and in the mean time I've gotten about $8000 back from Amex, and another$1000 back from Visa over those 8 years...that's $9000 that I'd have to pay them if I ran short, just for them to break even...not much risk if you ask me.

 

[Ghery]

I really couldn't tell you what the interest rate is on any of my cards without looking it up on a statement. I pay off every month, so it really means nothing to me.

Exactly. I can't remember the last time we didn't pay a cc bill in full. Maybe never?

 

[luvflyin]

Available unsecured credit is a factor in their calculation, but if you look at it closely, the total income to credit issued ratio trumps all their other numbers.

That’s why most people if they get serious, can dig out of massive debt holes in less than five years. Lending is always eventually is limited by income.

The bigger your shovel, the larger the hole they’ll ket you dig and climb down into.

If I called and told the Credit Card dudes, lower my limit, would that raise my score? Or would the credit score dudes go, something must be wrong with this guy, they lowered his limit?

 

[wsuffa]

So not having debt can lower you score? I’ve got 5 credit cards and they range from from 12,000 to 20,000 limits. Is that what is dragging my score down?

Correct. That's why it's called "credit score". In fact, to get the top score, you have to show recent on-time payments in 3 categories: revolver/credit card, term loan (car loans, etc), and long-term (mortgages). The limits aren't the problem. It's that you're probably lacking a record in more than one category.

People that operate on a cash-only basis tend to have lower credit scores than those that have high limits, only use a bit of it, and pay on-time.

In some places, the state(s) have mandated that someone who has no credit history (e.g. cash-only) not be downgraded as severely as one who takes out loans and doesn't pay.

Under some pressure, FICO has adjusted some of the criteria, but financial institutions may ask that scores be calculated differently depending on the purpose.

Anyone using the AMEX Platinum? I travel around the world pretty frequently and I've heard it's worth the high annual fee for frequent travelers.

I'm using it and have no complaints. It paid for my Trusted Traveler status and has gotten me into airport lounges around the world.

It'll pay for Global Entry, lounge access, and will rebate certain fees on whatever one airline you choose each year. I canceled some award tickets year before last and AmEx covered the $150 redeposit fee on the points. The lounge access and GE are also well worth it. Their travel agency is "meh", but some folks find the 2-for-1 ticket offer (certain fares, certain airlines) to be valuable - that's not worked for me because it's about the most expensive fares, but some use it. I also find the frequent-traveler status benefit to be a plus (Hilton and National Rental Car are two of them, Starwood was but I don't know if that changed with the Marriott merger).

 

[LoneAspen]

I've been an Amex cardholder since 1988 and have been happy with them. I also have a Chase Visa card which I think started out out as a CompuServe MasterCard and I just stuck with them as they were acquired by various banks and it ended up with Chase.

That's how little I switch providers. I've never been a "Ooooh look! Shiny offer!" kind of person, and all the other competing offers for points, miles, cash back, etc, just aren't worth chasing after to me. I'm the same way with insurance and wireless carriers. I've been with one insurance company since I was 16, and AT&T since I had my first cell phone in the 90's. They've all been good to me, so I never had reason to switch. It would take one of them doing me really dirty for me to shop around.

That being said, I did upgrade my Amex through the years to Gold and Platinum, but I will admit I did it mainly for ego and not for any particular benefits. I don't travel much and never really used all the perks of the Amex Platinum card to justify the insanely high annual fee. But after having it for almost 20 years, I'll be damned if I'm going to give it up now LOL.

 

[Sundancer]

Anyone using the AMEX Platinum? I travel around the world pretty frequently and I've heard it's worth the high annual fee for frequent travelers.

Yep, and it's been worth it to me - especially on long international layovers; had a flight cancelled, spent a loooong time in a very nice lounge.

 

[luvflyin]

Correct. That's why it's called "credit score". In fact, to get the top score, you have to show recent on-time payments in 3 categories: revolver/credit card, term loan (car loans, etc), and long-term (mortgages). The limits aren't the problem. It's that you're probably lacking a record in more than one category.

People that operate on a cash-only basis tend to have lower credit scores than those that have high limits, only use a bit of it, and pay on-time.

In some places, the state(s) have mandated that someone who has no credit history (e.g. cash-only) not be downgraded as severely as one who takes out loans and doesn't pay.

Under some pressure, FICO has adjusted some of the criteria, but financial institutions may ask that scores be calculated differently depending on the purpose.

Ah. That fits. I have no mortgages. One car payment. Only reason I have that is they gave a Zero Interest loan and I was going to get full coverage insurance anyway. I figured if that’s what they want do with their money, fine, I got some things I can do with it while I’m giving it back to them a piece at a time.

 

[Ventucky Red]

What’s with all these in the 800’s scores? Mine range from 760 to 790 with the 3 big scorers. I have NO unpaid or overdue bills. No collections. Nothing negative that I can see.

Available credit vs. the amount of credit actually used...

 

[DaleB]

I would encourage you all,when possible to use cash. Most of the places will gladly give you more than 1-2% off for cash.
The 3-6% increase the stores are charging per transaction,does not quite cover the 1-2% all the dilegent bill payers are receiving for the honor of borrowing money for 30 days.
This isnt advertised but when accomplished you'll save much more than you could ever earn with rewards

I haven't seen many merchants give a discount for cash. I do, on the other hand, get between 1 and 5 percent cash back every time I use a credit card. I neither know nor care what my credit card interest rates are... haven't carried a balance past the billing date in years. We charge tens of thousands per year, but everything gets paid before the due date, every time, no exceptions.

It wasn't always that way. We learned these lessons the hard way, an education that carried very high tuition payments.

 

[ejensen]

We have no credit score

 

[JCranford]

We have no credit score

You’re my hero

 

[denverpilot]

...and in the mean time I've gotten about $8000 back from Amex, and another$1000 back from Visa over those 8 years...that's $9000 that I'd have to pay them if I ran short, just for them to break even...not much risk if you ask me.

Technically you got it back from a combination of the fees charged to the business to use your card, and the interest people who carry balances pay. Plus annual fees if the cards have those stupid things.

There’s no such thing as a free lunch. You just paid more for the products you bought, is all that really happened.

If they funded it from the interest from people with balances, there’s a bit of a moral dilemma there. Yeah, they got there themselves and are adults... but the farce that cards give away anything for free, helps keep them legitimized for those of us who know they’re just a complete rip-off.

People that operate on a cash-only basis tend to have lower credit scores than those that have high limits, only use a bit of it, and pay on-time.

They say that, but I operate nearly 100% on cash on hand and still have some astronomical score... which I don’t even care about. Supposedly it will drop off to “no score” someday, but I haven’t seen it yet.

I suspect since I do use a check card (no, I don’t have any particular freak outs about that as some do, the protections in my State are identical to charge cards, and besides, my credit union would beg me not to leave and fix damn near anything for me...) that there’s some gamesmanship going on with that in the credit card/FICO world too. They can see cash flow through it.

I suspect if they couldn’t see us spending money it would turn into....

We have no credit score

Which would be fine by me.

They also say that certain sectors charge differently by credit score. If I even ever had a whiff of that, that business wouldn’t be earning a dime from me ever again. The most obvious would be insurance and I’d notice any correlation.

 

[denverpilot]

If I called and told the Credit Card dudes, lower my limit, would that raise my score? Or would the credit score dudes go, something must be wrong with this guy, they lowered his limit?

They supposedly have a “best” range for income to credit available. Sometimes asking them to raise it helps more than lower it.

Recall that this magic number is calculated to be the number that is most likely to get you to use it.

Have a nice income? The number probably looks a bit like a new boat or motor toys. And way above what you should ever spend on unsecured debt.

I think that story above where the car dealership wouldn’t let someone put more than $10,000 on their card they were just going to pay off anyway, was sleazy. You know damn well that same dealership was always happy to take the card or someone who could barely afford a repair bill.

They just don’t see it often enough to mark up the whole prices of all the cars to cover it, like all other businesses who accept cards do.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

BTW, anyone who thinks they are getting $XXXX dollars back from their CC company per year is thinking about it incorrectly. What really happened is you paid $XXXX extra, plus some additional extra cost, to a merchant, who then paid the CC company all that extra money, and gave some of it back to you. At best, CC rebates are a form of forced savings, but I assure you it isn't the savings you think it is, in the grand scheme of things. Business build the cost of CC charges into their pricing. Yes, you are wise to find a better than average CC rebate, because the merchant will build pricing around "average" CC fees it pays, but in the end we all pay more as CC fees to merchants creep upward.

Jeff

 

[Everskyward]

I really couldn't tell you what the interest rate is on any of my cards without looking it up on a statement. I pay off every month, so it really means nothing to me.

Same here. I also never paid much attention to my credit score until I got curious reading the threads about it on POA. It also seems easy to check. Just a click on a credit card website. Seems like mine hovers around the 800 mark, sometimes below, sometimes above.

 

[Everskyward]

BTW, anyone who thinks they are getting $XXXX dollars back from their CC company per year is thinking about it incorrectly. What really happened is you paid $XXXX extra, plus some additional extra cost, to a merchant, who then paid the CC company all that extra money, and gave some of it back to you. At best, CC rebates are a form of forced savings, but I assure you it isn't the savings you think it is, in the grand scheme of things. Business build the cost of CC charges into their pricing. Yes, you are wise to find a better than average CC rebate, because the merchant will build pricing around "average" CC fees it pays, but in the end we all pay more as CC fees to merchants creep upward.

Jeff

But you would be paying that extra $$$ to the merchant regardless of whether or not you were getting CC points. So you might as well get the points. It's true that "we all pay more" But you can't control what other people do, so you might as well take as much advantage of the situation as possible.

 

[forsonsinc]

Nope,not yet.
Unfortunately that line of thinking is where the majority seems to be heading.

But what @Everskyward is saying is fast becoming the truth, the more people who use cash the better and that will slow the tide of change a bit.

 

[luvflyin]

They supposedly have a “best” range for income to credit available. Sometimes asking them to raise it helps more than lower it.

Recall that this magic number is calculated to be the number that is most likely to get you to use it.

Have a nice income? The number probably looks a bit like a new boat or motor toys. And way above what you should ever spend on unsecured debt.

I think that story above where the car dealership wouldn’t let someone put more than $10,000 on their card they were just going to pay off anyway, was sleazy. You know damn well that same dealership was always happy to take the card or someone who could barely afford a repair bill.

They just don’t see it often enough to mark up the whole prices of all the cars to cover it, like all other businesses who accept cards do.

On this ‘income to credit available’ thing. How do they know what my income is? Do they have access to my tax returns?

 

[weilke]

BTW, anyone who thinks they are getting $XXXX dollars back from their CC company per year is thinking about it incorrectly. What really happened is you paid $XXXX extra, plus some additional extra cost, to a merchant, who then paid the CC company all that extra money, and gave some of it back to you. At best, CC rebates are a form of forced savings, but I assure you it isn't the savings you think it is, in the grand scheme of things. Business build the cost of CC charges into their pricing. Yes, you are wise to find a better than average CC rebate, because the merchant will build pricing around "average" CC fees it pays, but in the end we all pay more as CC fees to merchants creep upward.

Jeff

Unless you can negotiate cash discounts, if you dont use a card you are paying the upcharge for the CC industry without getting any of the benefits from it.

 

[weilke]

Ah. That fits. I have no mortgages. One car payment. Only reason I have that is they gave a Zero Interest loan and I was going to get full coverage insurance anyway. I figured if that’s what they want do with their money, fine, I got some things I can do with it while I’m giving it back to them a piece at a time.

If you pull a credit report, you can see what you are getting dinged for. Among others, you'll probably find 'average length of account history' and 'number of open accounts' in there.

 

[denverpilot]

On this ‘income to credit available’ thing. How do they know what my income is? Do they have access to my tax returns?

I won’t pretend to know all of their data sources but they usually have permission to get income and asset information from your applications for various forms of credit.

 

[luvflyin]

I won’t pretend to know all of their data sources but they usually have permission to get income and asset information from your applications for various forms of credit.

Ah. Slappin self upside head. It would be that simple. I suppose if you a gain in income you should notify them.