Altitudes in B/C/D airspace

[VA Aviator]

I'm almost too embarrassed to ask this question... It's not something that should be coming from me... I should really know the answer to this.

But... I've been away from flying for 5 years and while many things have stayed with me, others have not. I've researched this but have not been able to find a definitive answer in any FAA publication.

Ok, so the really dumb question:

When flying VFR in class B, C or D airspace, what is the proper procedure when it comes to altitudes? From my fuzzy memory, it seems to me this is the way it is:

Class D: Generally speaking, altitudes are at pilot's discretion, and the pilot is responsible for descending in such a manner as to be at TPA on the entry to the pattern. On departure, you are welcome to climb your desired altitude at your discretion (following any noise abatement procedures)

Class C: Pilot may be given altitudes to maintain, along with radar vectors, until pattern entry/make straight in instructions, at which point you descend to TPA/intercept and maintain glidepath.
On departure, you will be assigned an altitude that you are to climb and maintain.
In the absence of specific altitudes, altitudes are at the pilot's discretion, however you should advise ATC of any changes (such as "field in sight, starting our descent")

Class B: Never operated in class B VFR (I have under IFR) but my understanding is that it's more or less like an IFR flight. Related question: How do you know when to descend? Do they they clear VFR aircraft for visual approaches?

In my defense, most of my flights into B/C/D airports have been under IFR... but even that was long ago.. so excuse the ignorance

 

[MAKG1]

Class B is just like Class C, except you must be cleared explicitly VFR and you are provided separation services (in Class C, you only get sequencing).

Use a hemispheric rule altitude unless instructed otherwise, or descending to land.

 

[flyingron]

Class B is just like Class C, except you must be cleared explicitly VFR and you are provided separation services (in Class C, you only get sequencing).

Not quite. You only get advisories between VFR aircraft, but IFR and VFR are separated (and IFR to IFR obviously).

Use a hemispheric rule altitude unless instructed otherwise, or descending to land.

...or while turning...or within 3000 of the surface...

 

[charris911]

I was VFR in Houston Class B today, was given a "descend and maintain 3,000 and heading 270". Normally I've gotten something more along the lines of an altitude restriction like "at or below" or "turn 10 degrees left, and I'll get you back on course", rarely a hard altitude or heading. With the winds, I think IAH was launching in an odd configuration, so that may have been the case this morning.

I still had the heading restriction, when I was switced over to an underlying Class D tower, and I advised the local controller, approach gave me a heading restriction, she just said, "resume own navigation, enter right downwind".

 

[bobmrg]

I'm almost too embarrassed to ask this question... It's not something that should be coming from me... I should really know the answer to this.

But... I've been away from flying for 5 years and while many things have stayed with me, others have not. I've researched this but have not been able to find a definitive answer in any FAA publication.

Ok, so the really dumb question:

When flying VFR in class B, C or D airspace, what is the proper procedure when it comes to altitudes? From my fuzzy memory, it seems to me this is the way it is:

Class D: Generally speaking, altitudes are at pilot's discretion, and the pilot is responsible for descending in such a manner as to be at TPA on the entry to the pattern. On departure, you are welcome to climb your desired altitude at your discretion (following any noise abatement procedures)

Class C: Pilot may be given altitudes to maintain, along with radar vectors, until pattern entry/make straight in instructions, at which point you descend to TPA/intercept and maintain glidepath.
On departure, you will be assigned an altitude that you are to climb and maintain.
In the absence of specific altitudes, altitudes are at the pilot's discretion, however you should advise ATC of any changes (such as "field in sight, starting our descent")

Class B: Never operated in class B VFR (I have under IFR) but my understanding is that it's more or less like an IFR flight. Related question: How do you know when to descend? Do they they clear VFR aircraft for visual approaches?

In my defense, most of my flights into B/C/D airports have been under IFR... but even that was long ago.. so excuse the ignorance

Class C is a communications/identification thing, nothing more. As a VFR flight you will not be assigned altitudes and you should fly the way you would if it was Class D. The whole purpose of Class C is to let controllers know who is in their airspace and what are the intentions of those pilots.


Bob Gardner

 

[roncachamp]

When flying VFR in class B, C or D airspace, what is the proper procedure when it comes to altitudes?

Altitude is at pilot's discretion if an altitude or altitude restriction has not been issued.

 

[roncachamp]

Class B is just like Class C, except you must be cleared explicitly VFR and you are provided separation services (in Class C, you only get sequencing).

VFR aircraft are separated from IFR aircraft in Class C airspace.

 

[roncachamp]

Class C is a communications/identification thing, nothing more. As a VFR flight you will not be assigned altitudes and you should fly the way you would if it was Class D. The whole purpose of Class C is to let controllers know who is in their airspace and what are the intentions of those pilots.

There's a bit more to it than that. VFR aircraft are separated from IFR aircraft in Class C airspace so ATC must have the tools required to effect separation; VFR aircraft can be assigned altitudes and vectors.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Class C is a communications/identification thing, nothing more. As a VFR flight you will not be assigned altitudes and you should fly the way you would if it was Class D. The whole purpose of Class C is to let controllers know who is in their airspace and what are the intentions of those pilots.


Bob Gardner

My experience has been about 50/50 when transiting Class C. Maybe even getting a "remain at or above" or "at or below" a little more often than not. Class C controllers seem to have as much interest as Class B controllers in keeping approach/departure paths clear.

 

[poadeleted20]

VFR aircraft are separated from IFR aircraft in Class C airspace.

Since the only thing required for entry into Class C airspace is the controller's use of your call sign, just how is this done in the absence of radar contact and assignment of route/altitude to the VFR aircraft?

Note that the "3 Cessna 152's" rule for cloud clearance and visibility (established to allow visual sighting when an IFR aircraft pops out of a cloud) still applies to VFR aircraft in C-space, but only "clear of clouds" in B-space. There is a good reason for that, and the reason is that positive separation of VFR and IFR traffic is provided only in B-space.

 

[Velocity173]

VFR radar identified aircraft talking to ATC. IFR aircraft aren't going to be afforded separation from a 1200 code that isn't identified and mode C confirmed.

 

[poadeleted20]

VFR radar identified aircraft talking to ATC. IFR aircraft aren't going to be afforded separation from a 1200 code that isn't identified and mode C confirmed.

Exactly -- and those folks can be in the C-space legally before being radar identified. So, separation from VFR traffic is not guaranteed for aircraft (IFR or VFR) operating in C-space -- keep your eyes open and your head on a swivel.

 

[Velocity173]

Steven, are you required to apply wake turb sep (5-5-4) to VFR operating behind an IFR on final?

 

[roncachamp]

Since the only thing required for entry into Class C airspace is the controller's use of your call sign, just how is this done in the absence of radar contact and assignment of route/altitude to the VFR aircraft?

Often by instructing the aircraft to remain outside of Class C airspace until radar contact can be established. That's not actually necessary as separation is required only after communications and radar contact are established. Note that transponder and encoder are also required for entry into Class C airspace and that Class C airspace is typically entirely within ten miles of an ASR, so radar coverage tends to be very good.

Note that the "3 Cessna 152's" rule for cloud clearance and visibility (established to allow visual sighting when an IFR aircraft pops out of a cloud) still applies to VFR aircraft in C-space, but only "clear of clouds" in B-space. There is a good reason for that, and the reason is that positive separation of VFR and IFR traffic is provided only in B-space.

There is a vast disparity between your understanding and reality:

AIM 3−2−4. Class C Airspace

e. Aircraft Separation. Separation is provided
within the Class C airspace and the outer area after
two-way radio communications and radar contact are
established. VFR aircraft are separated from IFR
aircraft within the Class C airspace by any of the
following:

1. Visual separation.

2. 500 feet vertical; except when operating
beneath a heavy jet.

3. Target resolution.



Order JO 7110.65 Air Traffic Control
7−8−2. CLASS C SERVICES

a. Class C services include the following:

1. Sequencing of all aircraft to the primary
airport.

2. Standard IFR services to IFR aircraft.

3. Separation, traffic advisories, and safety
alerts between IFR and VFR aircraft.

4. Mandatory traffic advisories and safety alerts
between VFR aircraft.

b. Provide Class C services to all aircraft operating
within Class C airspace.

c. Provide Class C services to all participating
aircraft in the outer area.

d. Aircraft should not normally be held. However,
if holding is necessary, inform the pilot of the
expected length of delay.

e. When a radar outage occurs, advise aircraft that
Class C services are not available and, if appropriate,
when to contact the tower.

REFERENCE−
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 7−2−1, Visual Separation.

 

[roncachamp]

Steven, are you required to apply wake turb sep (5-5-4) to VFR operating behind an IFR on final?

I'm not.

 

[Velocity173]

I'm not.

So you're saying wake turb sep in ch 5 only applies to two IFR aircraft?

 

[poadeleted20]

Often by instructing the aircraft to remain outside of Class C airspace until radar contact can be established. That's not actually necessary as separation is required only after communications and radar contact are established.

Exactly. So when operating in C-space, there can definitely be VFR aircraft from which you are not being separated.

 

[poadeleted20]

So you're saying wake turb sep in ch 5 only applies to two IFR aircraft?

No, I think he is saying that he is no longer a working controller, and thus not required to do anything by 7110.65.

 

[Velocity173]

No, I think he is saying that he is no longer a working controller, and thus not required to do anything by 7110.65.

Yeah it's always a riddle with him. Reason why I asked is that my brother was working 2 VFR C-130s behind a B-1 the other day on approach. He was applying the standard 5 miles for large behind a heavy but the C-130s were eating up the B-1. He applied visual before wake turb sep was lost but there were other controllers saying wake turb is only applied between two IFRs. Nowhere does it say that in the .65. Not only that, there's a note in 7-8-3 and 7-6-7 of the .65 that's says wake turb will be applied for VFR arriving aircraft getting radar service. Online (stuck mike)I read other conflicting opinions with controllers on the subject.

I worked at a stage II basic radar service approach and I always applied the 5-5-4 sep when giving service to an arriving VFR aircraft. Although it was rare because in the military (at least fixed wing) mostly they're on IFR flight plans anyway.

 

[poadeleted20]

Yeah it's always a riddle with him. Reason why I asked is that my brother was working 2 VFR C-130s behind a B-1 the other day on approach. He was applying the standard 5 miles for large behind a heavy but the C-130s were eating up the B-1. He applied visual before wake turb sep was lost but there were other controllers saying wake turb is only applied between two IFRs. Nowhere does it say that in the .65. Not only that, there's a note in 7-8-3 and 7-6-7 of the .65 that's says wake turb will be applied for VFR arriving aircraft getting radar service. Online (stuck mike)I read other conflicting opinions with controllers on the subject.

Sounds like questions worth running up the ATC chain, starting with your local QA.

 

[Velocity173]

Sounds like questions worth running up the ATC chain, starting with your local QA.

Yep. He already submitted a query on it. To me the .65 is clear cut on the issue in the notes in ch 7. Apparently not so with all controllers. Kinda like the controller chastising a pilot for the HILPT. Everyone needs to get on the same page.

 

[poadeleted20]

Yep. He already submitted a query on it. To me the .65 is clear cut on the issue in the notes in ch 7. Apparently not so with all controllers. Kinda like the controller chastising a pilot for the HILPT. Everyone needs to get on the same page.

Agreed 100%.

 

[roncachamp]

So you're saying wake turb sep in ch 5 only applies to two IFR aircraft?

Nope. I'm saying I'm not required to apply wake turb sep (5-5-4) to VFR operating behind an IFR on final.

An FAA controller hired after, IIRC, May 15, 1972, cannot work past the last day of the month in which he turns 56. I reached that milestone on the 26th of May and worked my last shift on May 31st.

 

[roncachamp]

Exactly. So when operating in C-space, there can definitely be VFR aircraft from which you are not being separated.

You said positive separation of VFR and IFR traffic is provided only in Class B airspace. That's not correct.

 

[roncachamp]

Yeah it's always a riddle with him. Reason why I asked is that my brother was working 2 VFR C-130s behind a B-1 the other day on approach. He was applying the standard 5 miles for large behind a heavy but the C-130s were eating up the B-1. He applied visual before wake turb sep was lost but there were other controllers saying wake turb is only applied between two IFRs. Nowhere does it say that in the .65. Not only that, there's a note in 7-8-3 and 7-6-7 of the .65 that's says wake turb will be applied for VFR arriving aircraft getting radar service. Online (stuck mike)I read other conflicting opinions with controllers on the subject.

So why ask me if you already know the answer?

 

[Velocity173]

So why ask me if you already know the answer?

Because I've heard different opinions on the matter and just wanted yours. My answer isn't always the right one. If everything in aviation was clear cut well then we wouldn't have so many "discussions" on POA with conflicting view points. If you don't feel inclined to give your opinion, that's fine.

 

[Ghery]

Let's go back to the Class D part of the question.

Typically I'm either descending to or climbing out of the airport when in Class D space. Altitudes are "as required" for the operation in question. If staying in the pattern I don't climb above pattern altitude (1200 MSL at the home drome). If transiting over the airport and worrying about the hemispherical rules I'm above his airspace as it doesn't extend to 3000 AGL, so I'm not in the D space to begin with. If transiting through his D space due to clouds (not uncommon around here) I'm low enough that I'll just do what he asks if he needs me someplace other than where I am (not typical here).

Now back to our regularly scheduled food fight.

 

[roncachamp]

Because I've heard different opinions on the matter and just wanted yours. My answer isn't always the right one. If everything in aviation was clear cut well then we wouldn't have so many "discussions" on POA with conflicting view points. If you don't feel inclined to give your opinion, that's fine.

It's not a matter of opinion, it's in the book.