Altitude and oxygen levels

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tmyers said:
I take it you like this O2 monitor?
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Looks to me like one plant in China is pushing out a bunch that look identical, but are sold under different labels with different prices. I see the exact same model as I linked sold for $90 under in home medical area. I have a couple of different ones and cross check them once in awhile and they all seem to agree. So that said, yeah, it seems to work fine.

I also like to use them to tune the flow of O2. Different people have different needs so just following the altitude marks on the canualla/mask doesn't always cut it.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
Roll on the floor all you want, I make a healthy (6 figure) living.... do you?
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This is PRICELESS and needs to be preserved for posterity.

Making money makes you better? YGBFSM. And posting your income. Pretty pathetic and hollow, guy. Who's the "what you called me before" here? If you really think this is true, know that I'm retired, and can keep up a turbocharged FIKI twin. Do the math.

At 500 PSI the volume at 37% of oxygen in the can is about 20 liters. You consume 300 ml per minute of oxygen sitting in a chair, and that is if you have a constant delivery system (which the can does not). When such systems are evaluated without a rebreather system, they deliver about 10%. So such a system might at most deliver six minutes of relief.

Safety guy, go look up Nestus, TE, Rush, and Reggitt, et al. in the civil aeromedical library. 12,500 feet with 20 year old ERAU students in SIM in the altitude chamber means they make mistakes, significantly increased over the controls for the next 30 minutes after return below 10,000. No, I won't post it here. Go do some work. You called me something pretty vile, so I have no obligation to spoon feed you, Mr. "safety engineer"

So back to what another poster (Geico266) said. Can't you just follow the reg?
Or do your own homework? And stop calling others vile things. Buy an appropriate oxygen system, that's engineered (you do understand that word, no?) to do the job. Buy an oximeter to make SURE it's doing the job. Now go away. You have more money than brains, you don't realize that you don't know about that which you don't know. So anything but a prompt, quick answer is being a ...what you called me.
 
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Just as a sidebar, I would interpret a storm as convective activity. I don't know of very many aircraft that can fly high enough to get above many storms much less those that the majority of us here on good ole POA fly. So if you can't get above it you are going to have to fly around it O2 or not.
 
Not necessarily true in the winter. Here is a record, of my topping a noreaster at FL 22 to get home.
 

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Subscribed. This thread is going places!
 
tmyers said:
Just as a sidebar, I would interpret a storm as convective activity. I don't know of very many aircraft that can fly high enough to get above many storms much less those that the majority of us here on good ole POA fly. So if you can't get above it you are going to have to fly around it O2 or not.
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What Bruce said. Heck, I've flown over a snowstorm in a 172 (11,000).

However, for the most part, you're correct.
 
bbchien said:
Some here are too young to remember that the regs were a compromise betwee FAA and avery powerful Colorado Senator.
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I was unaware of this. Can you (or anyone) elaborate? Or point me to where i can read more?
 
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In answer to the OP's hypothetical scenario without O2, my experience living at sea level, then climbing a long day to above 12,000 feet and then skiing down with a heavy pack, is that sometimes it was absolute agony with increasing altitude and AMS headache and vomiting, other times no agony at all, other than the constant physical exertion. Highly variable, even in the same person.
 
When I put the big engine in the Navion, I found myself tending to fly higher and we immediately bought an O2 bottle and conserving regulators. Oxygen is cheap. Even at the FBO it's $50 for a fill that will last me six months or so. We tend to go on O2 somewhere around 10,000.

I've got a great cockpit shot my wife took of me but it's kind of wasted by the fact that I've got the canula accross my face like some life time smoking emphysema patient.
 
My answer to the OP would be, "it depends".
It depends on the individual. I've always lived in low elevations - here in FL mostly below 100' MSL. I recently flew with a friend who has always lived at high elevations (CO etc) and he's used to flying above 10,000. I also asked another pilot friend, who's lived at high elevations, and he said he's gone above 12,000 briefly with no problem. I'd be more likely to feel symptoms of hypoxia at lower levels than either of these two friends would.
But it also depends on the pilot's physical condition at the time. Is he fatigued, dehydrated, stressed, and so on. A pilot may be fine at 12,000 ft on one flight, but have problems at 9,000 ft on the next flight. Also, a pilot starting to experience symptoms of hypoxia may have certain symptoms on one flight, but different symptoms on another flight. For example on one flight he may start to feel lightheaded and euphoric, while on another flight he may not but instead feel tingling in his lips and extremities.
This is something to be taken very seriously.
 
Is it a good idea to carry those boost oxygen cans with you if you plan on going to around 8000' as a just in case sort of thing?

How would you use that? Feel woozy and take a puff off the can every minute or so and descend to a lower altitude?
 
cowman said:
Is it a good idea to carry those boost oxygen cans with you if you plan on going to around 8000' as a just in case sort of thing?

How would you use that? Feel woozy and take a puff off the can every minute or so and descend to a lower altitude?
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The website suggests less than 12, 000ft. Anyone who tells you that having some sort of supplemental oxygen on board is a bad idea is being a prick. But im sure someone will chime in and say you'll need a full fledged O2 system.


Here's their website http://www.boostoxygen.com/slides/altitude-sickness/
 
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Jhernandez04 said:
Anyone who tells you that having some sort of supplemental oxygen on board is a bad idea is being a prick. But im sure someone will chime in and say youll need a full fledged O2 system.
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That isn't really what folks here are saying. You seem to be implying that it is a good idea to carry some spare O2 can and that would be an acceptable backup if you found it necessary to climb above the legal limits.

What folks are saying is that is a horrible idea.

If you really are a 'Safety' professional, you will have had some education in things like human factors and psychology and would understand the implications that if someone thinks they have some kind of usable (if not legal) type of backup then they are more likely to take increased risk and get themselves into a bad situation in the first place. There are much better and safer options.

Having some kind of short duration O2 might be useful to carry in a pressurized airplane where in the case of decompression I suppose you could suck on it while doing an emergency decent, but you seem to be suggesting having it as a backup in case you intentionally feel the need to go above 12.5. There is a HUGE difference in the two scenarios.
 
Sort of related question - the regs say passengers above 15k need O2 provided to them but they are not required to use it.

In the case of pax that won't use it (maybe kids, or just stubborn adults) at what point is there a risk of permanent damage from the high alt?

Yeah, I know not a good idea, etc etc, but I am just curious as to the answer...
 
Fearless Tower said:
That isn't really what folks here are saying. You seem to be implying that it is a good idea to carry some spare O2 can and that would be an acceptable backup if you found it necessary to climb above the legal limits.

What folks are saying is that is a horrible idea.

If you really are a 'Safety' professional, you will have had some education in things like human factors and psychology and would understand the implications that if someone thinks they have some kind of usable (if not legal) type of backup then they are more likely to take increased risk and get themselves into a bad situation in the first place. There are much better and safer options.

Having some kind of short duration O2 might be useful to carry in a pressurized airplane where in the case of decompression I suppose you could suck on it while doing an emergency decent, but you seem to be suggesting having it as a backup in case you intentionally feel the need to go above 12.5. There is a HUGE difference in the two scenarios.
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I understand the difference. The question was hypothetical, and I'm sure I'm not the first person to ask the question, although it seems like if I don't agree with everything everyone is saying I've got some sort of attitude problem.

Heres the facts.

Higher altitude = less oxygen

BOOST is a can of 95% oxygen.

Therefore, if a person HAD ( I really don't care to argue the fact that someone shouldn't) to climb above a hazard. Reason would stand that a few cans of BOOST would HELP supplement your oxygen levels in your blood. But hell, maybe Im looking at it all wrong.

People canstate "follow the REGS" all day long, and thats great. Because thats EXACTLY what I intend to do, and have done thus far. But I'll be dammed if for some reason I make a mistake ( I guess some people dont make mistakes on here) that I will let something thats written in a book keep me from making a decision which I believe will save my life....

"Oh no, I need to climb to 18,000ft to save my life but cant because of the regs"

Obviously thats being a little dramatic, but thats my point. If I or ANYONE HAD to make a decision such as that how would one react to the situation. I also agree that it varies from person to person, which is why I asked in my first post what would you guess "on average".


It was a question that was asked so I and potentially others could learn from it. The question is not answered if someone says "follow the regs" that's not even close to answering the question and its not helpful. There have been some GREAT posts on here, but true to form there's always gonna be the cynical mule's butt (had to word it like that so an older nameless gentlemen wouldn't get offended) post something smart butt on here to get a rise or bully someone.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
it seems like if I don't agree with everything everyone is saying I've got some sort of attitude problem.

Therefore, if a person HAD ( I really don't care to argue the fact that someone shouldn't) to climb above a hazard. Reason would stand that a few cans of BOOST would HELP supplement your oxygen levels in your blood. But hell, maybe Im looking at it all wrong.

But I'll be dammed if for some reason I make a mistake ( I guess some people dont make mistakes on here) that I will let something thats written in a book keep me from making a decision which I believe will save my life....

"Oh no, I need to climb to 18,000ft to save my life but cant because of the regs"
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The problem with the perception of your attitude probably lies in the potential causes of the "have to climb" scenario. I, for one, can't think of a scenario where you'd have to climb to oxygen altitudes *unexpectedly*. If there's a mountain in your way, you should have known that prior to your flight. If there's a storm in your way, trying to outclimb it is foolish - Unless you have turbos (in which case you probably already have a better oxygen supply than a can), you won't likely be able to get on top of it anyway and the only safe course of action is to turn around and land and wait for it to pass over you, or go around, or pretty much anything except for a climb.

So, given the lack of plausible scenarios where outclimbing a hazard you didn't know about prior to your flight would be a good idea, your insistence on the idea gives the impression that you're an airborne cowboy - And your name-calling and attitude in response certainly hasn't helped your cause.

Copy this thread and come back to it in 5-10 years - You'll probably be embarrassed at your actions. BTDT.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
The problem with the perception of your attitude probably lies in the potential causes of the "have to climb" scenario. I, for one, can't think of a scenario where you'd have to climb to oxygen altitudes *unexpectedly*. If there's a mountain in your way, you should have known that prior to your flight. If there's a storm in your way, trying to outclimb it is foolish - Unless you have turbos (in which case you probably already have a better oxygen supply than a can), you won't likely be able to get on top of it anyway and the only safe course of action is to turn around and land and wait for it to pass over you, or go around, or pretty much anything except for a climb.

So, given the lack of plausible scenarios where outclimbing a hazard you didn't know about prior to your flight would be a good idea, your insistence on the idea gives the impression that you're an airborne cowboy - And your name-calling and attitude in response certainly hasn't helped your cause.

Copy this thread and come back to it in 5-10 years - You'll probably be embarrassed at your actions. BTDT.
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That's where your wrong, I'll never be embarrassed of my questions nor defense of myself when I feel there's bullying going on. Sorry to disappoint you but in my world where life and death are very real possibilities (much like aviation) there is NO stupid question, we don't chastise employees for their lack of knowledge and when an employee doesn't see eye to eye we lay down the fact. WE DON'T SAY BECAUSE OSHA SAYS SO. That's silly and NOT HELPFUL. So please those who continue to down play my safety expertise and overall respect for safety, be my guest. But that doesn't change the fact that if you were on my location I would be respectful and do my best to keep you safe. I guess I'm just a human being. I get the strong sense from aviation that there's this "though art better then you" attitude, that's not to say everyone is that way. I have a word for them, but alas. I cannot say it. Frankly, I find it comical that there are so many keyboard bad asses.

I write this to you 15 minutes into my high altitude training session at 22,300ft. Do I feel like I cant write coherent sentences or fly a plane? Nope, I'll be good all the way till the 45 minute mark when my hands and arms start to tingle. I purposely engage in activities that will challenge the brain, JUST in case I ever (god forbid run into that unlikely scenario) which brings to mind...... I'll await the jokes about my response having something to do with me being at altitude....

What do you do when your 25,000FT plus in the air and you've planned brilliantly but you made a mistake (oh dear, hows that possible?) and your precious O2 runs out.... Descend sure, but how many minutes are you exposed? How will you react? Whats the average reaction? Those are what im after.


FYI: I finish this post at the 19 minute mark at 22.3K and fully functional. :dunno:
 
Reaching the 30 minute mark at 22.3K FT. Roughly 8.7% oxygen at the altitude.

Symptoms I am experiencing are visual focus, about a .5 second decrease in focus.
 
Closing in on the 40 minute mark @ 22.3K FT.

My symptoms are, focus has went from from a .5 previously to about an estimated .8 seconds.

Slight heavy feeling of the arms, faint headache. Brain power has been effected as I type this I have a few spelling errors, which isnt saying much because I only type with 2 fingers (weird I know).

Overall thoughts at this stage: I feel I could maintain speed and altitude without issue. I do feel however that if I was in an emergency situation I wouldnt at 100%, I feel im at 70% capacity. Language has NOT deteriorated like the pilot in the youtube video, although I do not know his ALT.
 
FYI I sure would appreciate a can of BOOST right now!! But for training purposes I will not.

:)
 
Closing in on the 50 minute mark. An employee came into the office and I requested that he ask me questions about our procedures (non aviation related) I answered all his questions, concentration was strained, language was not effect at all. A few questions I really had to think of the answer, it didnt take me much longer than normal though.

Vision has roughly stayed the same at about .8 second to focus. Spelling has stayed the same. Mental capacity is hovering around 70% still.

An overall sense of well being is starting to creep in. No hint of passing out at all. Motor skills are still well within range for safety. Emergency maneuvers would not be recommended but possible. I would recommend handling the aircraft as you would in slow flight with small corrections so you can mentally focus on what you are doing.

Pulse: 78 BPM (my resting BPM is 51)
 
Training complete at the 55 MIN mark.



Taking the mask off and instantly get light headed with a vision blur, vision FULLY recovers within 1 second. Dramatic sense of well being and happiness. Arms are still slightly heavy, within 20 seconds mental capacity has returned to 100%
 
How you feel has nothing to do with it.
How you perform on cognitive tasks has all to do with it.
I don't see any cognitive scores in your eight posts.
You obviously didn't look up the reference Nestus, et al...
jhernandez04 said:
Anyone who tells you that having some sort of supplemental oxygen on board is a bad idea is being a prick
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Um, now you're calling me a prick. I think what you are is just soooo obvious.

A can of boost? I already told you that might help you for six minutes. Trouble is, the frontal lobes don't recover that way. It takes more than 30 minutes. Yes, you need a real, engineered oxygen system to make any difference at all.

Jhernandez04 said:
Dramatic sense of well being and happiness. Arms are still slightly heavy, within 20 seconds mental capacity has returned to 100%
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...as judged by you with continued reduced self assessment tools...for at least 30 minutes. How little you really know.

Dude, I am gas physiologist and on the faculty of a major state university. Maybe you need some education but you're really here for self reinforcement.
 
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bbchien said:
How you feel has nothing to do with it.
How you perform on cognitive tasks has all to do with it.
I don't see any cognitive scores in your eight posts.
You obviously didn't look up the reference Nestus, et al...
Um, now you're calling me a prick. I think what you are is just soooo obvious.

A can of boost? I already told you that might help you for six minutes. Trouble is, the frontal lobes don't recover that way. It takes more than 30 minutes. Yes, you need a real, engineered oxygen system to make any difference at all.

How little you really know.

Dude, I am gas physiologist and on the faculty of a major state university. Maybe you need some education but you're really here for self reinforcement.
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Yea, your right.... my training at altitude since last September has zero to do with me being able to handle elevation.

I never called you a prick? Thats against the rules. :nono:

As far as cognitive training, you probably won't think its anything special. But there's an APP from Lumosity.com that is called "brain trainer" which I routinely practice on during my high altitude sessions.


I'm done with you dude, please stop posting in my thread.
 
Oh, now he OWNS the thread. This is really really fat. And he uses a internet tool to self evaluate in his frontal lobe-reduced post hypoxic head with 2 minutes to self assessed full cognitive recovery. He's superior becuase his $100,000 income make it so.

And he owns the thread. IN THE MEDICAL FORUM!!!
And call others "pricks" and "dck hed".

You're munching too much DHEA and testosterone, guy. Do you really think anyone here is taking you seriously? That would be evidence of congnitive failure :)
 
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I wanna hear more about an office at 22k feet altitude?

I'm also wondering if the OP knows any names like Boyle, or Dalton.
 
bbchien said:
Oh, now he OWNS the thread. This is really really fat. And he uses a internet tool to self evaluate in his frontal lobe-reduced post hypoxic head with 2 minutes to self assessed full cognitive recovery. He's superior becuase his $100,000 income make it so.

And he owns the thread. IN THE MEDICAL FORUM!!!
And call others "pricks" and "dck hed".

You're munching too much DHEA and testosterone, guy. Do you really think anyone here is taking you seriously? That would be evidence of congnitive failure :)
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Doc, I think he's really from Enterprise here to haunt you!

Sorry, couldn't resist.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
bbchien said:
Oh, now he OWNS the thread. This is really really fat. And he uses a internet tool to self evaluate in his frontal lobe-reduced post hypoxic head with 2 minutes to self assessed full cognitive recovery. He's superior becuase his $100,000 income make it so.

And he owns the thread. IN THE MEDICAL FORUM!!!
And call others "pricks" and "dck hed".

You're munching too much DHEA and testosterone, guy. Do you really think anyone here is taking you seriously? That would be evidence of congnitive failure :)
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Uh yea.... pretty sure in internet terms you hijacked the crap out of the thread "I" posted. Your smart, no?

100,000$? When did I take a pay cut? :dunno:


"And he uses a internet tool to self evaluate in his frontal lobe-reduced post hypoxic head with 2 minutes to self assessed full cognitive recovery."

Your pretty dense guy.... Let me dumb it up for you a little bit. Im basing my knowledge of myself and how I reacted when I began training to where I am currently.

When did I say anything about frontal lobe recovery? I merely said that I felt I was 100% after a minute or so. Sure, using MRI scans and what other magic equipment a medical expert like yourself uses could pick up on the real numbers to what Im feeling. However, I test myself and recovery time with the functions I know, and I can get a reasonable assumption of how I am progressing in my altitude training. I'm offering my experience at altitude.... does that offend you? Then go buy your own unit and submit your own research... OR let me guess? I need to google that? bah, whatever dude. Please stop bombing MY thread... yea I created it.
 
He's never heard of Boyle. Nor of Dalton. That is plain.
Maybe Susan Boyle..and Timothy Dalton...


ROTFLMAO.
 
Still don't know where this 22k office is located.

Boyle? Dalton?

Sorry, if I seem pedantic. (concerned with details, or minutia)
<edit: Bruce beat me this time by a few seconds, but I was first! neener :D >

<edit again: OP thank you for the office info. Put in while I was typing I think >

<edit third time: From the website: With equal air density and pressure to that of the external atmosphere and our state-of-the-art air-conditioning and filtering system, this product creates the ideal environment for comfortable and safe hypoxic exercise. Oops>
 
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Hypothetical situation: My cans of oxygen in the flight levels run out and my fingers start to tingle . How much faster than VNE can I descend before I have to worry about the wings falling off? Hypothetical only but if ever I have to exceed VNE to save my life, I don't want to be limited by a colored stripe on my airspeed indicator... What an idiot!
 
Witmo said:
Hypothetical situation: My cans of oxygen in the flight levels run out and my fingers start to tingle . How much faster than VNE can I descend before I have to worry about the wings falling off? Hypothetical only but if ever I have to exceed VNE to save my life, I don't want to be limited by a colored stripe on my airspeed indicator... What an idiot!
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Really Tim?
 
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