Altitude and oxygen levels

Status
Not open for further replies.
Jhernandez04

Jhernandez04

Line Up and Wait
Joined
Jul 13, 2012
Messages
955
Location
Arlington
Display Name
Display name:
TheHulk
This is a serious hypotnetical question that some of you may have encountered before.

During a flight you encounter a fast moving front or a series of mountains, or any other scneario you can imagine that forces you higher to clear the threat. But heres the problem, you dont have oxygen and your only choice is up and over.

(Please for the sake of the question do not oppose the scenario)

-what altitude can a human simply not get enough oxygen?
-how long could could a pilot (on average) stay at 15k 20k 25k



I bring this up because im a pilot and I also train at high altitude.
I sleep at 12k and do 30-45 minute sessions at 22, 000ft . Obviously there is benifit for this in my athletic endeavours and I can see the benifits for flying as well.
 
The regs are pretty clear, why not just follow them?
 
Last edited:
Jhernandez04 said:
This is a serious hypotnetical question that some of you may have encountered before.

During a flight you encounter a fast moving front or a series of mountains, or any other scneario you can imagine that forces you higher to clear the threat. But heres the problem, you dont have oxygen and your only choice is up and over.

(Please for the sake of the question do not oppose the scenario)

-what altitude can a human simply not get enough oxygen?
-how long could could a pilot (on average) stay at 15k 20k 25k

I bring this up because im a pilot and I also train at high altitude.
I sleep at 12k and do 30-45 minute sessions at 22, 000ft . Obviously there is benifit for this in my athletic endeavours and I can see the benifits for flying as well.
Click to expand...

I know that above 26,000 is considered the "death zone" for Everest climbers. In the Death Zone it means that despite acclimation no one can live up there for sustained amounts of time without dying.

I myself live at 8,000ft. As far as the regs go... if you're flying alone or with family pax no one is going to bust you (Dont tell Ron), but safety is an issue. Keep in mind Oxygen at altitudes is not linear it is exponential. Which means that your 12k acclimation will not mean that you are good at 24k when a flat lander is good at 12k. Your 12k of altitude may get you a few thousand feet higher.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
I know that above 26,000 is considered the "death zone" for Everest climbers. In the Death Zone it means that despite acclimation no one can live up there for sustained amounts of time without dying.

I myself live at 8,000ft. As far as the regs go... if you're flying alone or with family pax no one is going to bust you (Dont tell Ron), but safety is an issue. Keep in mind Oxygen at altitudes is not linear it is exponential. Which means that your 12k acclimation will not mean that you are good at 24k when a flat lander is good at 12k. Your 12k of altitude may get you a few thousand feet higher.
Click to expand...


Your response is refreshing my friend. Thank you for that.

I just always wondered since storms could possibly be 50+ miles wide how long one could fly above it if absolutely required for survival.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
-what altitude can a human simply not get enough oxygen?
-how long could could a pilot (on average) stay at 15k 20k 25k
Click to expand...

You are asking a generalized question that depends on the specific individual. Some humans dont get enough oxygen on the ground at sea level. THen you have well acclimated specimens who can function well at high altitudes.

I cannot answer your question because the answer is "depends".. depends on your lung capacity, your hemoglobin, your cardiovascular fitness and a bunch of other details that may or may not make your head swim. You seem like an acclimated individual. Good for you. If you are dehydrated on the day in question that may all be for naught. Too many variables. You might do fine. You might not.

Thats why the regs are written the way they are, and why despite you telling people not to oppose the scenario, thats exactly what they are doing.

Dont go there.

Dont let a failure to plan on the ground turn into a crisis in the air.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
I just always wondered since storms could possibly be 50+ miles wide how long one could fly above it if absolutely required for survival.
Click to expand...

No real definitive answer for that. Depends on fitness level and acclimation level. I wouldn't recommend finding out, hypoxia kills. You could get a pulse oximeter and find out how quickly it drops off as altitude increases.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
Your response is refreshing my friend. Thank you for that.

I just always wondered since storms could possibly be 50+ miles wide how long one could fly above it if absolutely required for survival.
Click to expand...

Why is a 180 degree turn not considered part of your storm survival plan?

Never let **** poor judgement put you in the position of having to demonstrate superior piloting skills....
 
Jhernandez04 said:
Obviously there is benifit for this in my athletic endeavours and I can see the benifits for flying as well.
Click to expand...

I'd suggest this to allow you to judge for yourself how you perform at altitude: http://www.faa.gov/pilots/training/airman_education/aerospace_physiology/
It may be an eye opener. But there's little doubt that you'll perform better than most of us who live and train below 5,000'.

As a side note, I'd be curious to know what you're training for and where you're training at 22,000'. I've done some limited cycling above 12,000' and know how ridiculously difficult it is. I've always heard "live high, train low" to maximize your training results. Shoot me a PM if you'd prefer.
 
Dave gave excellent answers to a stpd (Google that) question....... :yesnod:
 
Last edited:
I agree about the follow the regs comment. With that said, how humans react to hypoxia differently is a critical point. In the Air Force we went to the altitude chamber on a recurring basis to maintain currency and the ability to continue to fly by regs. It was invaluable training to see what your personal symptoms were and how quick the onset was at various altitudes. I can tell you one very important thing they taught us was that each human experiences differing symptoms at onset, and as hypoxia develops. Each persons faculties degrade differently and at a differing rate.

My personal symptoms included initially feeling warm all over, a bit euphoric, then greying in of my vision. It was also illustrative to see what happened when we put our masks on and gang loaded the oxygen regulators to go to 100% oxygen. You recover pretty quickly. It showed how powerful that oxygen can be.

I know it is impractical for GA pilots to undergo training in the chamber as well as the academics we did on human physiology in the military, but I can say it was some great training and something I will never forget.

Carl
 
Unregistered said:
I agree about the follow the regs comment. With that said, how humans react to hypoxia differently is a critical point. In the Air Force we went to the altitude chamber on a recurring basis to maintain currency and the ability to continue to fly by regs. It was invaluable training to see what your personal symptoms were and how quick the onset was at various altitudes. I can tell you one very important thing they taught us was that each human experiences differing symptoms at onset, and as hypoxia develops. Each persons faculties degrade differently and at a differing rate.

My personal symptoms included initially feeling warm all over, a bit euphoric, then greying in of my vision. It was also illustrative to see what happened when we put our masks on and gang loaded the oxygen regulators to go to 100% oxygen. You recover pretty quickly. It showed how powerful that oxygen can be.

I know it is impractical for GA pilots to undergo training in the chamber as well as the academics we did on human physiology in the military, but I can say it was some great training and something I will never forget.
Click to expand...

Thank you for the no BS answer.
 
bigring said:
I'd suggest this to allow you to judge for yourself how you perform at altitude: http://www.faa.gov/pilots/training/airman_education/aerospace_physiology/
It may be an eye opener. But there's little doubt that you'll perform better than most of us who live and train below 5,000'.

As a side note, I'd be curious to know what you're training for and where you're training at 22,000'. I've done some limited cycling above 12,000' and know how ridiculously difficult it is. I've always heard "live high, train low" to maximize your training results. Shoot me a PM if you'd prefer.
Click to expand...


Thanks for the website, im checking it out now. Check your PM.
 
I say this all the time in these discussions. People go up to the top of Pike's Peak and spend the day. People come up from the flatlands and heavily exert themselves at 12K+ skiing all the time. One way to find out is to take a pulse oximeter and another pilot on O2 and find out. I believe you would be surprised if you train at high altitude how tolerant you are. There is a guy on another site that is in incredible shape and flys with another pilot all day at 17.5K with no ill effects.

Specific to your question about what I would do without oxygen and I needed to go up for some reason. I have a friend that got caught in icing because he didn't have O2, so he didn't climb above it. It almost killed him. I know of another guy that hit a mountain in night IMC, perhaps because he didn't want to go into the oxygen levels to top. Faced with those scenarios I would go up and when I landed go buy an O2 rig. We're not talking about a lot of money, why not get one.:dunno:
 
Alexb2000 said:
I say this all the time in these discussions. People go up to the top of Pike's Peak and spend the day. People come up from the flatlands and heavily exert themselves at 12K+ skiing all the time. One way to find out is to take a pulse oximeter and another pilot on O2 and find out. I believe you would be surprised if you train at high altitude how tolerant you are. There is a guy on another site that is in incredible shape and flys with another pilot all day at 17.5K with no ill effects.

Specific to your question about what I would do without oxygen and I needed to go up for some reason. I have a friend that got caught in icing because he didn't have O2, so he didn't climb above it. It almost killed him. I know of another guy that hit a mountain in night IMC, perhaps because he didn't want to go into the oxygen levels to top. Faced with those scenarios I would go up and when I landed go buy an O2 rig. We're not talking about a lot of money, why not get one.:dunno:
Click to expand...


Awesome post brother. Thats what im talking about, life or death. Thank you for sharing.

I actually havent bought a O2 rig yet, but walmart sells these 98% oxygen canisters and I have 3 or 4 of them in my flight bag just in case. But your right, It wouldnt hurt to have one in the plane.
 
I live at 30' elevation and in the airplane I start to feel altitude at 6000'. A half hour at 9000' and my mind was drifting when I should have been thinking about flying. I take hypoxia seriously. Since I have no problem on a day hike from 7000' to 9000' feet and back, I have to think that sitting in an airplane with the engine droning is one thing and any sort of athletic activity is something else. I'm also going to start carrying a couple of the throwaway oxygen bottles.
 
By throw away oxygen are you referring to Boost? How we'll do they really work?
 
Geico266 said:
The regs are pretty clear, why not just follow them?
Click to expand...
Because Hernandez, like everone else, is an exception to the physiology.

You feel GREAT but are actually dumb. Dumber than dumb.
Some here are too young to remember that the regs were a compromise betwee FAA and avery powerful Colorado Senator. They were watered-down science.

Go as high as you desire, you'll be okay, until you're not.

If you really want to know, go take the chamber ride at OKC for $10. Put it into the FAA search box, Mr. Rogers Shaw will be there to save your life.
 
Last edited:
Jhernandez04
This message is hidden because Jhernandez04 is on your ignore list.


Ahhhhhh! Much more pleasant now.
Best way to deal with a foul mouthed "classy" guy.....! Too bad he already reproduced!
:yesnod:
 
Any wager on how long til we have an NTSB accident report appended to this thread?

The last guy I personally knew who had this kind of attitude managed to take his trainer out too when he stalled it in doing training for pipeline patrol. Yanking and banking down low and something went bad real quick. We were sad to see it happen, but none of us was truly surprised.
 
Doggtyred said:
Any wager on how long til we have an NTSB accident report appended to this thread?

The last guy I personally knew who had this kind of attitude managed to take his trainer out too when he stalled it in doing training for pipeline patrol. Yanking and banking down low and something went bad real quick. We were sad to see it happen, but none of us was truly surprised.
Click to expand...

Im a safety consultant. Its my job to know and understand limits. Forgive me if I ask a question..... jeeze what the hell
 
Doggtyred said:
Any wager on how long til we have an NTSB accident report appended to this thread?

The last guy I personally knew who had this kind of attitude managed to take his trainer out too when he stalled it in doing training for pipeline patrol. Yanking and banking down low and something went bad real quick. We were sad to see it happen, but none of us was truly surprised.
Click to expand...

Your'e right Dave. Like they say, you can educate ignorant but you can't fix stupid......oh well. Enough of this thread, on to better conversations....:yes:
See ya there.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
Im a safety consultant. Its my job to know and understand limits. Forgive me if I ask a question..... jeeze what the hell
Click to expand...
A safety consutlant who doesn't recognize his antiauthority attitude
geico266 said:
The regs are pretty clear, why not just follow them?
Click to expand...
jhernandez24 said:
SMDH.
Click to expand...
Boost? A can of O2? YGBFSM.

Safety consultant?
ROTFLMAO
 
Doc:

The instructor will appear, when the student is ready.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
I just always wondered since storms could possibly be 50+ miles wide how long one could fly above it if absolutely required for survival.
Click to expand...

How could flying above a 50-mile wide storm ever be "absolutely required for survival?" Don't fly into the storm. And if you fly into the storm, turn around, get the hell out. BTDT.
 
Hey all, let's all do our best to keep the discussion on topic and cut out the personal crap.
 
bbchien said:
A safety consutlant who doesn't recognize his antiauthority attitude
Boost? A can of O2? YGBFSM.

Safety consultant?
ROTFLMAO
Click to expand...

When I checked the O2 content with a calibrated 4 gas detector I read 37% oxygen. Sealevel is 20.9% and 22,000 feet is roughly 8.9% O2 content. So please tell me how a 9$ can of O2 which is 28.1% MORE oxygen isnt a good idea? Oh let me guess, it doesnt last long enough? Ya your probably right its better to have nothing at all.

Roll on the floor all you want, I make a healthy (6 figure) living.... do you?
 
Go up with another pilot on O2 and you put a finger pulse oximeter on. See where it dips below 90. I use the oximeter even when on Oxygen to verify it is having the desired effect.

Personally, I found myself at 85 when at 10K. But I am an out of shape Ohio boy. Thus I now use O2 anytime I fly at 10K or higher. Even at 9K I can feel the difference and limit my time there. Know thyself.

In an EMERGENCY you could do all kinds of things to cope with varying degrees of success. Storms of 50 mile width can be gone around in an hour. Mountainous areas have passes that local flyers use regularly, learn about them. Trying to outclimb a storm might result in a rude awakening - maybe you catch some convection and that finger of Odin throws you an extra 8K feet higher in the air than you anticipated. Suddenly super-fitness doesn't much matter. Listen to your local center frequency on a stormy spring day and hear all that FL traffic detouring around storms. Mind you, these are turbine birds with pressurization. What do they know that you don't?

Start exercising your cranial muscle a bit more.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
Roll on the floor all you want, I make a healthy (6 figure) living.... do you?
Click to expand...

Oh, you're one of those people.

A pulse ox is about $50-75 if you shop around. You might be able to afford it. Its been awhile since I used mine, but I want to say at 12k feet i was around 91-93%. I was crossing the Appalachian mountains at night in an old cessna 152 and figured the more altitude the better. I went down to 8000 after the mountains and my oxygen level went up significantly.

From what I recall 90% is the threshold you don't want to get below.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
When I checked the O2 content with a calibrated 4 gas detector I read 37% oxygen. Sealevel is 20.9% and 22,000 feet is roughly 8.9% O2 content. So please tell me how a 9$ can of O2 which is 28.1% MORE oxygen isnt a good idea? Oh let me guess, it doesnt last long enough? Ya your probably right its better to have nothing at all.

Roll on the floor all you want, I make a healthy (6 figure) living.... do you?
Click to expand...


Don't worry, the new tax structure is coming.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top