Altering/Fixing/Maintaining Your Aircraft

[TheTraveler]

I asked the question about a year ago just exactly what can you do to your non-experimental plane yourself without an A/P, inspection, or approval? Someone was kind enough to send me a link to the actual rules and regs, but for me, they are far from clear, understandable, comprehensible reading.

My question is, who is really to know, except for you, if you were to do something to your plane? With your medical, you have a history that follows you, an be investigated, and probably would be under certain circumstances. But that's obviously not the same as replacing some bolts, gauges, or whatever on your plane. I'm not talking about yanking the engine and doing a complete overhaul here, but just as if you were tinkering with your car, who is to know if you've been tinkering with your plane?

So you get a nice used Cessna which is decked out in that oh so fabulous 60's and 70's dreary colored carpeting and seats, and decide the hell with it...I'm going to carpet this thing and have it upholstered. And off you go. Next inspection, is the A/P going to remark "Wow...who/when did the interior work?" What happens in that situation?

Or you're up in the air and notice that your attitude indicator is a bit sticky. So you go out, buy one, and change it out. It's not serialized to the airplane, right? So aside from you and your close buddies (certainly not the wife who doesn't want to know how much you spent), who else is to know, and how would they find out?

I could go on and on with examples.

The brakes that I've seen aren't dissimilar from your standard automotive/motorcycle type brakes, and you change out pads and rotors.

You pull the tire off and run down to your local guy and have it changed.

Your radio burns up, you find a new one, and you change it out.

Your PTT button on the yoke pops out and the spring goes flying. So you stop in to radio shack, get what you need, and replace it.

So what?

Who on this thread couldn't replace a broken door strap? Fix a window latch? Replace a tach? Swap out a radio? Maybe even swap an alternator?

I doubt that there are many non-AP's pulling out engines, changing crankshafts, replacing props, working on retractable landing gear, etc. But who knows?

My point here isn't to encourage anyone to break the law or to start an argument on what you should and/or shouldn't do. But being around builders for several years, I've never met a pilot yet that doesn't like to tinker with stuff regardless if they built the plane or not. I find it hard to believe that everyone takes everything to the A/P for replace/repair and inspection. If you don't want to disclose, that's ok...but seriously...if you're working on stuff that you're not supposed to, just how exactly does one get caught, and what do they do about it?

 

[MAKG1]

One would think Pinto brakes on a Cessna would be kinda obvious at an annual inspection. Or an accident investigation.

 

[Tom-D]

I asked the question about a year ago just exactly what can you do to your non-experimental plane yourself without an A/P, inspection, or approval? Someone was kind enough to send me a link to the actual rules and regs, but for me, they are far from clear, understandable, comprehensible reading.

My question is, who is really to know, except for you, if you were to do something to your plane? With your medical, you have a history that follows you, an be investigated, and probably would be under certain circumstances. But that's obviously not the same as replacing some bolts, gauges, or whatever on your plane. I'm not talking about yanking the engine and doing a complete overhaul here, but just as if you were tinkering with your car, who is to know if you've been tinkering with your plane?

So you get a nice used Cessna which is decked out in that oh so fabulous 60's and 70's dreary colored carpeting and seats, and decide the hell with it...I'm going to carpet this thing and have it upholstered. And off you go. Next inspection, is the A/P going to remark "Wow...who/when did the interior work?" What happens in that situation?

Or you're up in the air and notice that your attitude indicator is a bit sticky. So you go out, buy one, and change it out. It's not serialized to the airplane, right? So aside from you and your close buddies (certainly not the wife who doesn't want to know how much you spent), who else is to know, and how would they find out?

I could go on and on with examples.

The brakes that I've seen aren't dissimilar from your standard automotive/motorcycle type brakes, and you change out pads and rotors.

You pull the tire off and run down to your local guy and have it changed.

Your radio burns up, you find a new one, and you change it out.

Your PTT button on the yoke pops out and the spring goes flying. So you stop in to radio shack, get what you need, and replace it.

So what?

Who on this thread couldn't replace a broken door strap? Fix a window latch? Replace a tach? Swap out a radio? Maybe even swap an alternator?

I doubt that there are many non-AP's pulling out engines, changing crankshafts, replacing props, working on retractable landing gear, etc. But who knows?

My point here isn't to encourage anyone to break the law or to start an argument on what you should and/or shouldn't do. But being around builders for several years, I've never met a pilot yet that doesn't like to tinker with stuff regardless if they built the plane or not. I find it hard to believe that everyone takes everything to the A/P for replace/repair and inspection. If you don't want to disclose, that's ok...but seriously...if you're working on stuff that you're not supposed to, just how exactly does one get caught, and what do they do about it?

Are you going to have the aircraft annualed ? do you think the A&P-IA will not notice what was worked on?

Nice interior,,,, show me the burn certs or a material purchase receipt, and the return to service for it.

 

[TheTraveler]

Are you going to have the aircraft annualed ? do you think the A&P-IA will not notice what was worked on?

Nice interior,,,, show me the burn certs or a material purchase receipt, and the return to service for it.

Well, that's why I'm asking the question. So a full interior gets noticed. What about those little "piece by pieces" that don't or can't?

If you're inspecting a plane, how could you possibly know that this or that has changed, aside from an obvious full alteration such as a complete interior overhaul?

Consider the amount of planes that come and go, and the things that change in all of them. Even if you inspect that same plane every year, I don't get how you could possibly keep track of that, and I also don't believe that pilots don't work on their stuff without telling anyone.

 

[murphey]

Really not a issue until...
1. Someone notices at annual inspection and/or
2. The FAA investigates due to an accident or incident, at which point your insurance company will probably refuse to honor the policy.

 

[bnt83]

This is another one of those bull**** "what can I do without being caught" threads that Dr. Bruce so loves to hate.

Get a clue dude. Its pretty obvious you have no idea what your doing if you can't understand preventative maintenance in part 43.

 

[Tom-D]

Well, that's why I'm asking the question. So a full interior gets noticed. What about those little "piece by pieces" that don't or can't?

If you're inspecting a plane, how could you possibly know that this or that has changed, aside from an obvious full alteration such as a complete interior overhaul?

Consider the amount of planes that come and go, and the things that change in all of them. Even if you inspect that same plane every year, I don't get how you could possibly keep track of that, and I also don't believe that pilots don't work on their stuff without telling anyone.

I do not know what all aircraft look like, but the ones I do inspect I do know what should look like and when I notice any item that looks out of place I ask questions. I have a list of parts that the manufacturer has developed as the type design for each model. Not saying you couldn't sneak a minor change past me.

If you really want to work on your aircraft find an A&P that will supervise your work, keep them in the loop and protect their certificate
.

 

[TheTraveler]

This is another one of those bull**** "what can I do without being caught" threads that Dr. Bruce so loves to hate.

Get a clue dude. Its pretty obvious you have no idea what your doing if you can't understand preventative maintenance in part 43.

Not the same or even similar except that it deals with regs. You get a kidney stone or a back pain and go to the doctor, it's a record and a trail. Your master switch goes bad and you swap it out, if it's your plane, where's the record if you don't report it? It's not serialized to the plane, and how does the inspector know during the annual? Did he pull out his iPhone and snap a pic of it last year, and forward it to this years inspector?

It's more than what you can/choose to do as preventative maintenance.

 

[Tom-D]

remember this, When I inspect your aircraft IAW the annual, I have the option to stop the inspection, and note in the logs why the inspection was stopped.

I have inspected this aircraft IAW the FAR 43-D and stopped the inspection when it was discovered the owner was not in compliance with FAR 43 maintenance requirements. This inspection can be resumed when the owner can prove they are in compliance with FAR 43.5 .7 & .9

tell me what A&P will touch that aircraft after reading that.

Plus I also have the option of getting the FAA involved by requesting a compliance inspection by the local FSDO.

 

[Tom-D]

Not the same or even similar except that it deals with regs. You get a kidney stone or a back pain and go to the doctor, it's a record and a trail. Your master switch goes bad and you swap it out, if it's your plane, where's the record if you don't report it? It's not serialized to the plane, and how does the inspector know during the annual? Did he pull out his iPhone and snap a pic of it last year, and forward it to this years inspector?

It's more than what you can/choose to do as preventative maintenance.

Why is your door key different from the ignition key, show me where it was changed and the A&P return to service entry.

 

[TheTraveler]

remember this, When I inspect your aircraft IAW the annual, I have the option to stop the inspection, and note in the logs why the inspection was stopped.

I have inspected this aircraft IAW the FAR 43-D and stopped the inspection when it was discovered the owner was not in compliance with FAR 43 maintenance requirements. This inspection can be resumed when the owner can prove they are in compliance with FAR 43.5 .7 & .9

tell me what A&P will touch that aircraft after reading that.

Plus I also have the option of getting the FAA involved by requesting a compliance inspection by the local FSDO.

Understood. But there has to be something to raise your suspicion in order for you to want to stop the inspection. If what has (or hasn't!) been done can't raise your suspicion, well then...no reason to stop, right?

 

[bnt83]

So how many times did you violate
§91.417 Maintenance records.

1) Records of the maintenance, preventive maintenance, and alteration and records of the 100-hour, annual, progressive, and other required or approved inspections, as appropriate, for each aircraft (including the airframe) and each engine, propeller, rotor, and appliance of an aircraft. The records must include—​

(i) A description (or reference to data acceptable to the Administrator) of the work performed; and
(ii) The date of completion of the work performed; and
(iii) The signature, and certificate number of the person approving the aircraft for return to service.
(2) Records containing the following information:
(i) The total time in service of the airframe, each engine, each propeller, and each rotor.
(ii) The current status of life-limited parts of each airframe, engine, propeller, rotor, and appliance.
(iii) The time since last overhaul of all items installed on the aircraft which are required to be overhauled on a specified time basis.

 

[TheTraveler]

Why is your door key different from the ignition key, show me where it was changed and the A&P return to service entry.

Right...yet something else that would raise suspicion, differing keys. It would seem that the amount of things on that aircraft that would raise suspicion are limited. Would you agree with that or not?

 

[Tom-D]

Right...yet something else that would raise suspicion, differing keys. It would seem that the amount of things on that aircraft that would raise suspicion are limited. Would you agree with that or not?

We will catch you, and then we call in the heavies, then it's you that must deal with them.

I normally do a pre-annual inspection prior to taking a new customer, owners that try to pull this ***** on me usually get told "NO" I don't want you as a customer. then you get to go deal with the FBO who charge a lot more for their services than I do.

 

[Shawn]

but seriously...if you're working on stuff that you're not supposed to, just how exactly does one get caught, and what do they do about it?

Same as what is preventing any Joe Shmoe from accepting an IFR clearance when not IFR rated?....or even from flying without a PPL? There isn't anyone there checking PPL's at the airport.

It is when something goes wrong that is the problem. If you do have an incident, you are opening up a whole can of worms from anything to enforcement action, insurance denial...heck, what of someone get injured or dies...guess what...prosecution.

You are also risking the resale value of your plane...who would want to buy a plane if an A&P stopped an inspection and enforcement action was taken cuz the owner did his own undocumented tinkering and repairs...who know what else they did.

Yeah, it is the honor system and I am sure not everyone plays 100% by the rules, but poor decisions can have consequences.

 

[MAKG1]

Right...yet something else that would raise suspicion, differing keys. It would seem that the amount of things on that aircraft that would raise suspicion are limited. Would you agree with that or not?

You seem to think mechanics are idiots.

Give me a car where an amateur has modified it, and I can tell in 5 minutes. And I'm another amateur. Imagine what someone who has worked on that model for years can do.

Yes, you notice when the factory tools don't work or the wrench you usually use for a given job doesn't fit.

You know what factory parts look like and if they have been replaced, even with new factory parts.

Not to mention what happens when the undesigned modified braking system fails.

 

[TheTraveler]

We will catch you, and then we call in the heavies, then it's you that must deal with them.

I normally do a pre-annual inspection prior to taking a new customer, owners that try to pull this ***** on me usually get told "NO" I don't want you as a customer. then you get to go deal with the FBO who charge a lot more for their services than I do.

And I wouldn't blame you for doing that, if it's you signing on the line for the annual and having to shoulder the responsibility. But you've got to have something to be suspicious about, correct? You don't just pick guys out and say "You look like a guy that would work on your plane...go away."

Maybe it's a don't ask don't tell, which is exactly why I brought it up. The hushed talk about what is done in the hangar is intriguing. I have a hard time believing it exists with only those who I've ran across.

You say "those owners" who try pulling this on you. What about the others that you don't know about? How do you know they're not doing things they're not supposed to on their planes?

Aside from that, what seems silly to me is the immediate "crash report" responses, as if changing a door latch makes a plane mysteriously tumble out of the sky because the A/P didn't put it on.

 

[TheTraveler]

You seem to think mechanics are idiots.

Give me a car where an amateur has modified it, and I can tell in 5 minutes. And I'm another amateur. Imagine what someone who has worked on that model for years can do.

Yes, you notice when the factory tools don't work or the wrench you usually use for a given job doesn't fit.

You know what factory parts look like and if they have been replaced, even with new factory parts.

Not to mention what happens when the undesigned modified braking system fails.

I made no claim of anyone being an idiot nor did I even remotely refer to such an idea. But I am going to call BS on your claim.

There are those who tinker and work on things their whole lives, and those that don't. Those that are mechanically and technically inclined, as well as detail oriented, and those that aren't. Call them amateurs because they are not licensed if you like, but I wouldn't agree.

You take a simple part swap. Straight up replacement, no modification...battery, brake pad, alternator, whatever, and explain to me how exactly you can tell if the dealer did it, or the owner in their garage, GIVEN that he used the right tools. You can't tell. I've done cleaner and nicer work on things than OEM reps have done (planes not included).

 

[TheTraveler]

Yeah, it is the honor system and I am sure not everyone plays 100% by the rules, but poor decisions can have consequences.

Agreed, but I don't think it's a fair assumption that it's always a poor decision.

 

[Tom-D]

And I wouldn't blame you for doing that, if it's you signing on the line for the annual and having to shoulder the responsibility. But you've got to have something to be suspicious about, correct? You don't just pick guys out and say "You look like a guy that would work on your plane...go away."

Maybe it's a don't ask don't tell, which is exactly why I brought it up. The hushed talk about what is done in the hangar is intriguing. I have a hard time believing it exists with only those who I've ran across.

You say "those owners" who try pulling this on you. What about the others that you don't know about? How do you know they're not doing things they're not supposed to on their planes?

Aside from that, what seems silly to me is the immediate "crash report" responses, as if changing a door latch makes a plane mysteriously tumble out of the sky because the A/P didn't put it on.

You must have lead a sheltered life if you believe you can operate in this small industry and not gain a reputation.

I can deny you service and tell you to go away for any reason I choose.

 

[TheTraveler]

You must have lead a sheltered life if you believe you can operate in this small industry and not gain a reputation.

I can deny you service and tell you to go away for any reason I choose.

Operate meaning what? Own a plane and work on it? Or actually work in the industry? Because to me those are two different things.

I'm not referencing anyone who is doing work for money or running some kind of illegal garage. I'm referencing only private pilots who may change small items on their plane that may be questionable in terms of legality.

Of course you can deny service for any reason, as with any other business in the country. I'm simply asking how you would make that determination?

 

[SoloEqs]

So you get a nice used Cessna which is decked out in that oh so fabulous 60's and 70's dreary colored carpeting and seats, and decide the hell with it...I'm going to carpet this thing and have it upholstered. And off you go. Next inspection, is the A/P going to remark "Wow...who/when did the interior work?" What happens in that situation?

That's when I say "Boy, that rug shampoo really does a good job, doesn't it?"

 

[FastEddieB]

An old "Aftermath" made a lasting impression in me.

An owner of a Cherokee had noticed a broken "hose clamp" on an exhaust joint. Found what he thought was a similar one and replaced it.

Problem is, the stock part had a locator pin designed to fit in a recess, and was meant to be left fairly loose and safetied. This permitted the requisite play between the exhaust headers and the muffler. The hose clamp replacement when tightened down did not.

The lack of play in the joint led to a crack in the exhaust which led to escaping exhaust which compromised a fuel line which led to an inflight fire which led to a fatal - one of the worst kind of fatals imaginable.

Planes have been brought down by screws of the wrong length interfering with controls. I did a simple relocate of the fuel pressure sender in my Experimental Sky Arrow. Worked perfectly - until the first time I went to adjust my adjustable cooling baffle and it hung half way - a screw head was sticking up just far enough into its path to interfere.

Even grabbing a bolt, nut and washer made of different materials can set up invisible corrosion - something backyard mechanics rarely concern themselves with but which is covered in A & P training.

And, though not directly related, I recently linked to a crash caused by an XMRadio puck antenna having come loose somehow and ending up in the tailcone, blocking the controls.

Pilots do all sorts of unauthorized maintenance to their planes all the time, most often to no ill effect. Hard to imagine a door strap bringing down a plane. But I am also reminded of the poster about the unforgiving nature of aviation. It's best to be very, very careful, bordering on paranoid, whenever doing unauthorized maintenance. That is, if you knowingly choose to do it.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Not the same or even similar except that it deals with regs. You get a kidney stone or a back pain and go to the doctor, it's a record and a trail. Your master switch goes bad and you swap it out, if it's your plane, where's the record if you don't report it? It's not serialized to the plane, and how does the inspector know during the annual? Did he pull out his iPhone and snap a pic of it last year, and forward it to this years inspector?

It's more than what you can/choose to do as preventative maintenance.

How is it any different?

In your opening post, you essentially asked 'if I do something illegal, how is anyone going to know'

 

[kyleb]

Really not a issue until...
1. Someone notices at annual inspection and/or
2. The FAA investigates due to an accident or incident, at which point your insurance company will probably refuse to honor the policy.

The insurance company denying coverage doesn't happen. Even if your airplane isn't quite legal from an airworthiness perspective. Even if you illegally fly VFR into IMC and crash. Even if you illegally run out of gas and crash. Even if you illegally do a buzz job over your girlfriend's house and hit the trees. Even if you crash while under the influence. The insurance company has figured the odds of those things into your rates and you're covered against those possibilities.

It is similar to if you have auto insurance and have an accident when you're speeding or DUI. Your policy still covers the accident.

 

[kyleb]

Not the same or even similar except that it deals with regs. You get a kidney stone or a back pain and go to the doctor, it's a record and a trail. Your master switch goes bad and you swap it out, if it's your plane, where's the record if you don't report it? It's not serialized to the plane, and how does the inspector know during the annual? Did he pull out his iPhone and snap a pic of it last year, and forward it to this years inspector?

It's more than what you can/choose to do as preventative maintenance.

If you substitute "like" parts, nobody is going to notice unless you do a butcher job of replacing the parts. In many ways, aviation is on the honor system, where people are assumed to do what they are allowed to do and no more.

Do people violate this trust? Absolutely.

Should you? No.

 

[Fearless Tower]

The insurance company denying coverage doesn't happen. Even if your airplane isn't quite legal from an airworthiness perspective. Even if you illegally fly VFR into IMC and crash. Even if you illegally run out of gas and crash. Even if you illegally do a buzz job over your girlfriend's house and hit the trees. Even if you crash while under the influence. The insurance company has figured the odds of those things into your rates and you're covered against those possibilities.

It is similar to if you have auto insurance and have an accident when you're speeding or DUI. Your policy still covers the accident.

I think it depends a lot on the insurance company. Best to read your actual policy. If you have Avemco, you'll probably still be covered even if it is proven you were doing something illegal, others may not be so generous.

 

[FastEddieB]

The insurance company denying coverage doesn't happen. Even if your airplane isn't quite legal from an airworthiness perspective.

I know I have read of such cases.

But I don't know if I can find one easily.

Again, depends on the fine print.

Found this, albeit from a law firm, pretty quickly:

http://www.aerolegalservices.com/Articles/Aircraft Insurance Coverage.shtml

 

[TheTraveler]

An old "Aftermath" made a lasting impression in me.

An owner of a Cherokee had noticed a broken "hose clamp" on an exhaust joint. Found what he thought was a similar one and replaced it.

Problem is, the stock part had a locator pin designed to fit in a recess, and was meant to be left fairly loose and safetied. This permitted the requisite play between the exhaust headers and the muffler. The hose clamp replacement when tightened down did not.

The lack of play in the joint led to a crack in the exhaust which led to escaping exhaust which compromised a fuel line which led to an inflight fire which led to a fatal - one of the worst kind of fatals imaginable.

Planes have been brought down by screws of the wrong length interfering with controls. I did a simple relocate of the fuel pressure sender in my Experimental Sky Arrow. Worked perfectly - until the first time I went to adjust my adjustable cooling baffle and it hung half way - a screw head was sticking up just far enough into its path to interfere.

Even grabbing a bolt, nut and washer made of different materials can set up invisible corrosion - something backyard mechanics rarely concern themselves with but which is covered in A & P training.

And, though not directly related, I recently linked to a crash caused by an XMRadio puck antenna having come loose somehow and ending up in the tailcone, blocking the controls.

Pilots do all sorts of unauthorized maintenance to their planes all the time, most often to no ill effect. Hard to imagine a door strap bringing down a plane. But I am also reminded of the poster about the unforgiving nature of aviation. It's best to be very, very careful, bordering on paranoid, whenever doing unauthorized maintenance. That is, if you knowingly choose to do it.

I think these are great examples, and I would agree with the closing statement.

 

[TheTraveler]

How is it any different?

In your opening post, you essentially asked 'if I do something illegal, how is anyone going to know'

It's not different from the "breaking the law standpoint" of course, that's obvious, and why I noted that they were only similar in terms of dealing with regs. Do either of them, you break the law. No question.

However, it is different in discovery and others knowing about it.

You get a kidney stone, and you (so I've heard) are doomed. You go to the doctor, there begins a paper trail, and although you can lie about it, you've got some pretty good chances of getting caught because that trail exists. Your only way out of this is if you don't ever go to the doctor, don't tell anyone, and endure the stone. Fair assumptions, right?

Now back to the plane. Say you change something your not supposed to...an electrical switch. It goes bad, and your no dummy with electrical switches. So while parked in the hangar you pop it out because it's just got two simple pins on the back, drive over to Radio Shack, and WOW...they have the exact same one. Part number and everything. Identical. You buy it with cash, deny a reciept, get in your car, back to the hanger, put it in, and throw the other one out while driving down the highway. Who is ever going to know?

Is the A\P doing the inspection going to notice that switch? I really don't think so (no offense, Tom...I just don't think you will notice it if it's done right). Is the plane going to crash? I really don't think so. (Although there have been some awesome points made about simple tiny variations in parts that can lead to serious problems, and I absolutely appreciate that).

I get it...the honor system. But what I'm looking for from you guys with the experience is essentially the answers to these questions.

1) Do pilots do this as often as I think and as I've heard they do?

2) Is it really as easy to do this quietly as I think and as I've heard it is?

3) Is it really as hard to get caught doing this as I think and as I've heard it is?

Not encouraging anyone to break the law, and I can't do it anyway, I don't even own a plane at the moment. This is just something that comes up so often in hushed tones that I wanted to air it out a bit here.

 

[TheTraveler]

The insurance part of it I didn't consider until others brought it up. It's an interesting wrench in the discussion I think.

It reminds me of when I was very young, sitting with the old man in a smoke-filled diner in Northern Michigan listening to ice fisherman argue over whether your insurance was void if you drove your pickup on the ice or not. I was the only one who suggested to just call the agent and ask, that would solve the debate. They looked at me as if I had something growing out of my head, said nothing, and then continued on with their arguing.

 

[Dav8or]

Traveller- you seem to be the perfect candidate for an experimental. Buy somebody else's E/AB plane and work on it all you want. Skip certified airplanes.

 

[TheTraveler]

Traveller- you seem to be the perfect candidate for an experimental. Buy somebody else's E/AB plane and work on it all you want. Skip certified airplanes.

It's not necessarily about me, just questions to the community on a topic that looks to be a bit sensitive and I'd like to see what comes out of the conversation.

If I was buying (which I'm not at the moment), I really don't know which way I'd go. I could see buying certified, buying experimental, and building all as options, but I don't think that now is the time for me to seriously consider it.

 

[airguy]

It's not necessarily about me, just questions to the community on a topic that looks to be a bit sensitive and I'd like to see what comes out of the conversation.

If I was buying (which I'm not at the moment), I really don't know which way I'd go. I could see buying certified, buying experimental, and building all as options, but I don't think that now is the time for me to seriously consider it.

I would encourage you to BUILD an EX-AB, because then you would have first-hand knowledge of every part, know good from bad (mostly), and know what you can realistically work on or not. And since you would have the repairmen certificate in your name, there would be no question of legality or insurance.

Turning wrenches on a certificated bird without A/P certs is eventually going to end badly - it's just a question of when, and how badly. Caution is advised.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Certificates keep us safe.

You can do anything in the world that your A&P will sign off on with no issues.

I found it easy to tell the difference between the work done at the big name repair station and my own work on the old man's Beech - but I could usually fix the messes they made.

If it doesn't get logged, it didn't happen.

Sometimes I wonder about what actually got recorded in the old man's log books.

 

[Silvaire]

...but seriously...if you're working on stuff that you're not supposed to, just how exactly does one get caught...?

Don't tell me you're one of those guys who doesn't drop a Quarter at the coffee mess because.....who's gonna know?

As mentioned earlier, if you can't understand the regulations, which are in plain English, then it's probably best to put the wrench down and step away from the airplane.

 

[Ted]

Well, I do my best to work with my A&P on the work I do. It works out well. I think it's rather silly to do otherwise. If your A&P isn't interested in working with you on it, then find a different one.

 

[A/c mech]

It all comes down to two things;
HONESTY
INTREGRITY

 

[jhausch]

this is a very interesting topic.

I like the idea of forging a relationship with a mechanic where I can pay for his/her time: they do the work OR I do the work and they approve it OR I do the work and then pay them to fix my mistakes

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

I would encourage you to BUILD an EX-AB, because then you would have first-hand knowledge of every part, know good from bad (mostly), and know what you can realistically work on or not. And since you would have the repairmen certificate in your name, there would be no question of legality or insurance.

Turning wrenches on a certificated bird without A/P certs is eventually going to end badly - it's just a question of when, and how badly. Caution is advised.

First, homebuilt aircraft are certificated. They get a special airworthiness certificate (FAA form 8130-7) (except part 103)

Second, you don't need to build it yourself and you don't need to have the repairman certificate to to alter / fix /maintain and stay 100% legal. You do have to follow the operating limitations when it comes to major alterations, and the annual condition inspection requires either the repairman certificate or an A&P. but other than that, you are good on your own. I would personally recommend that you observe your personal limitations, but that isn't required by the FARs.

Third, other than complying with the rules or not, how does the method under which the aircraft was certified make the difference between ending well and ending badly?

It all comes down to two things;
HONESTY
INTREGRITY

Perhaps it's just me, but I prefer to have a competent person working on my airplane.

For the record: I am not recommending that one ignore part 43 for those aircraft to which it applies. And, having a good working relationship with an A&P is good for all.