All Electric Plane

Tantalum

Tantalum

Final Approach
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San_Diego_Pilot
Thought this was a pretty realistic summary... IE, it was very well aware of current electric aircraft limitations with battery storage, weight, endurance, etc., but I was surprised to see so much activity in the GA space around electric planes

Needless to say the technology still has a long way to go, but I do wonder if 50 years from now we'll be in the same place as today with powerplants or if everything in GA will be electric (or turbine) and 100LL GA will be a thing of the past... I mean, lets be honest, not that much has changed with your run of the mill carbureted O320 and O360 powerplants since the 1960s/1970s

 
^p.s. - was that a Bonanza at 2:24? Was that some kind of subliminal marketing?
 
A lot of us (pilots who fly for fun) make a one or two dawn or evening flights a week of about an hour, so electric aircraft will fill our requirements a lot sooner than 50 years..
 
tinerj said:
A lot of us (pilots who fly for fun) make a one or two dawn or evening flights a week of about an hour, so electric aircraft will fill our requirements a lot sooner than 50 years..
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Considering that most GA pilots buy 40 year old planes, because they can't afford new(er) planes, pushes true adoption out 40 years or so.
 
Same here, most of my fun flights are 45 minutes to an hour or so, that's a good amount of time I would think. But for electric aviation to really take off (pun intended) I feel like they'd need to at least get 3 hrs endurance out of it at a bare minimum.. just so you have *some* cross country ability with it. The video made reference to training programs, and while I think the 1 hr endurance is fine for a lot of flight training the cross countries may become a challenge
 
And the problem with electric cross country is where do you plug it in and how long to charge.
 
The infrastructure will come if it becomes properly viable.. but as long as a charge takes longer than 5-10 minutes, or until gas becomes prohibitively expensive you will not see the infrastructure build around it. Anywhere I go that has electric car parking charging it is seems to always be deserted.. therein lies another dilemma, the support for electric charge stations is not self sustaining, IE, it seems that it is mainly fueled by tax incentives, not real profit

A person can buy a barrel of gasoline for one price, and sell it by the gallon at a higher price, and make money. Electricity is different, and the break even is usually decades in the making.. which leaves private ventures into charging stations very limited

BUT, these can all be overcome if that's what the market eventually desires
 
This type of innovation is big in Europe.

Also, many of us might be surprised how much power is generated on large transport aircraft. Many of those are doing away with hydraulic systems for electro mechanical types. It's not hard to see the transformation to hybrid type systems where the engine generates electric for battery storage and electric power delivery.... similar to hybrid autos.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
It's not hard to see the transformation to hybrid type systems where the engine generates electric for battery storage and electric power delivery
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Definitely seems like there is some potential there to squeeze optimum efficiency out of internal combustion engine and electric propulsion... I just wonder how it applies to GA exactly (genuinely curious to learn). In the auto world cars spend a ton of time decelerating and stopped... so there is a lot of opportunity there to regenerate some energy during braking and to shut the gas engine when doing so, or waiting at a red light, coasting on highway, etc.

But an airplane spends what, 90% of it's time at at least 65% power? Sure, you could generate some electricity in the descent, but how many of us really descend at idle and drop it in?? The only time my lowly Archer or Skyhawk goes to idle is crossing the numbers, so I'm not sure where the opportunity would be to actually regenerate there. And in flight during cruise you would be asking the gas engine to supplement an electric engine and keep a battery topped off, but that gas engine would already be giving you everything it can up at altitude, so the electrical components would be largely just added weight and complexity at that point turning mechanical energy into potential energy and back into mechanical energy, with some loss at each step of the way

Could a hybrid system get you to cruise altitude faster and improve takeoff performance? Sure. Could it be a viable resource for an engine out or range extending option, absolutely. But I've always been skeptical when I hear about hybrid applications in GA having as much practicality as in the automotive world. I'm not sure I would sacrificed 500 lbs (Chevy Volt battery weight plus the electric engine) of useful load just so I can get to cruise altitude faster and have maybe 1 hr extra range
 
I have an hybrid car with an oversized electric battery that plugs in. So I get some miles on electric and when it discharges, the gas engine takes over and the battery gets regen on braking and hill descending, etc. I can't imagine that working on a plane because of the weight penality. But who knows . . . .

I really do like the car. It is essentially a gas powered car, a hybrid, and an electric vehicle, combining the best of all three. I use only electricity charged at home five days a week, two days I out run the electric so the gas and hybrid does the work.
 
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tinerj said:
And the problem with electric cross country is where do you plug it in and how long to charge.
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I would be surprised if this is a real problem. Most shops already have high voltage/power lines to the property. And with the limited number of aircraft flying at most GA airports, it would realistically only take one hydra head charging station. Therefore, the cost recovery would be much more reasonable, then a Tesla Supercharging station :D

Tantalum said:
The infrastructure will come if it becomes properly viable.. but as long as a charge takes longer than 5-10 minutes, or until gas becomes prohibitively expensive you will not see the infrastructure build around it. Anywhere I go that has electric car parking charging it is seems to always be deserted.. therein lies another dilemma, the support for electric charge stations is not self sustaining, IE, it seems that it is mainly fueled by tax incentives, not real profit

A person can buy a barrel of gasoline for one price, and sell it by the gallon at a higher price, and make money. Electricity is different, and the break even is usually decades in the making.. which leaves private ventures into charging stations very limited

BUT, these can all be overcome if that's what the market eventually desires
Click to expand...

In New England and the Mid Atlantic, I see the public charging stations constantly in use. Especially at the malls; which really surprises me.
Why does it have to take 5-10 minutes? I owned a plane used by a flight school, and I looked into the economics of buying a plane again and putting it on leaseback to a local flight school. Unless the flight school is like UND or Emory Riddle with hundreds of students, the trainers are lucky to get 8 hours of flight time a weekend. The turn time just does not have to be as good as most people believe.

Tim
 
Tantalum said:
^p.s. - was that a Bonanza at 2:24? Was that some kind of subliminal marketing?
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Nope.
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Ha, thanks! Odd to slip that in there
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
This type of innovation is big in Europe.

Also, many of us might be surprised how much power is generated on large transport aircraft. Many of those are doing away with hydraulic systems for electro mechanical types. It's not hard to see the transformation to hybrid type systems where the engine generates electric for battery storage and electric power delivery.... similar to hybrid autos.
Click to expand...

Distances between population centres in Europe (and much of Asia) are much shorter than the USA, which is a comparatively vast country.

The hybrid excels in urban stop-and-go driving. It's benefits are limited in extended high speed highway driving; the engine runs pretty well continuously. Primarily because of the US/Canada market Toyota has had to keep increasing the output of the engine on the Prius. It is now measurably bigger in displacement than the engine in my first car, a 1968 VW Beetle.

I don't see many of the benefits of a hybrid translating well to aviation.
 
I don't see any benefits to any European thing here in the US.....and I'm amazed that the technology is even capable on a small scale.
GRG55 said:
Distances between population centres in Europe (and much of Asia) are much shorter than the USA, which is a comparatively vast country.

The hybrid excels in urban stop-and-go driving. It's benefits are limited in extended high speed highway driving; the engine runs pretty well continuously. Primarily because of the US/Canada market Toyota has had to keep increasing the output of the engine on the Prius. It is now measurably bigger in displacement than the engine in my first car, a 1968 VW Beetle.

I don't see many of the benefits of a hybrid translating well to aviation.
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Like cold fusion and flying cars, electric powered planes will forever be 10 years away.
 
Salty said:
Like cold fusion and flying cars, electric powered planes will forever be 10 years away.
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Nah, they are here now. They may not be practical for you, but they are here.

Tim
 
GRG55 said:
Distances between population centres in Europe (and much of Asia) are much shorter than the USA, which is a comparatively vast country.

The hybrid excels in urban stop-and-go driving. It's benefits are limited in extended high speed highway driving; the engine runs pretty well continuously. Primarily because of the US/Canada market Toyota has had to keep increasing the output of the engine on the Prius. It is now measurably bigger in displacement than the engine in my first car, a 1968 VW Beetle.

I don't see many of the benefits of a hybrid translating well to aviation.
Click to expand...

Hybrid is also a great bridging technology for energy density. I am not sure about you, but most pilots I know actually cruise between 45% and 65% power most of the time. That means you are carrying a lot more weight, complexity... for the remaining power used in take off and climb. An electric motor with constant torque does not need a variable pitch propeller, can be placed in optimal manor for aerodynamics.... The generator could provide only 60% of the required ship power leaving 5% available to charge the batteries.

Tim
 
tspear said:
Nah, they are here now. They may not be practical for you, but they are here.

Tim
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No they aren't. There is not one single production model for sale. Even the record breaking prototype extra they mentioned in the video is anemic at best, and not remotely close to a production available aircraft.
 
The problem with electric, cars, boats, airplanes and everything else is the power still comes from burning fossil fuels. Moreover, lots and lots of fossil fuels are expended in creating the batteries and whatnot. Fact of the matter is if the price of fossil fuels rises precipitously, the cost to run these things will rise in concert. Were we moving with any momentum toward fossil fuel independence I'd say these things were a good idea. But I truly don't expect to see any such movement in my lifetime.
 
If we'd only get more closer to the sun....just think of all that energy we'd get.:confused:
 
Salty said:
No they aren't. There is not one single production model for sale. Even the record breaking prototype extra they mentioned in the video is anemic at best, and not remotely close to a production available aircraft.
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Actually they are available. Just in Europe :D

Tim
 
steingar said:
The problem with electric, cars, boats, airplanes and everything else is the power still comes from burning fossil fuels. Moreover, lots and lots of fossil fuels are expended in creating the batteries and whatnot. Fact of the matter is if the price of fossil fuels rises precipitously, the cost to run these things will rise in concert. Were we moving with any momentum toward fossil fuel independence I'd say these things were a good idea. But I truly don't expect to see any such movement in my lifetime.
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Coal has had a declining share of the total energy consumed in the USA for a while now, natural gas has actually been replacing coal in many locations.
However, between ethanol and renewables (wind and solar mostly) I am pretty sure that fossil fuels have been on the decline for total energy consumption in the USA.
Further, you have a choice with electricity; you can get it from fossil fuels, solar, wind, garbage dump methane....

Tim
 
tspear said:
Coal has had a declining share of the total energy consumed in the USA for a while now, natural gas has actually been replacing coal in many locations.
However, between ethanol and renewables (wind and solar mostly) I am pretty sure that fossil fuels have been on the decline for total energy consumption in the USA.
Further, you have a choice with electricity; you can get it from fossil fuels, solar, wind, garbage dump methane....

Tim
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You are of course correct, but when the choice is fossil fuels or fossil fuels (but the way my calculations suggest that ethanol is a shill, it takes as much energy and possibly more to make than it gives when you burn it). Despite all the windmills that vast majority of power in this nation is still generated by fossil fuels and likely will be until they eventually run out.
 
In the United States, as currently produced, ethanol is not a meaningful energy source.
 
steingar said:
The problem with electric, cars, boats, airplanes and everything else is the power still comes from burning fossil fuels. Moreover, lots and lots of fossil fuels are expended in creating the batteries and whatnot. Fact of the matter is if the price of fossil fuels rises precipitously, the cost to run these things will rise in concert. Were we moving with any momentum toward fossil fuel independence I'd say these things were a good idea. But I truly don't expect to see any such movement in my lifetime.
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You're wrong. California delivered 27% of its retail electricity sales from renewable resources in 2016. The goal is 50% by 2030. It won't be overnight, but these technologies need to progress together.
http://www.energy.ca.gov/renewables/tracking_progress/documents/renewable.pdf
Also, the carbon footprint of battery production has been way overstated.
http://shrinkthatfootprint.com/electric-cars-green
 
John221us said:
You're wrong. California delivered 27% of its retail electricity sales from renewable resources in 2016. The goal is 50% by 2030. It won't be overnight, but these technologies need to progress together.
http://www.energy.ca.gov/renewables/tracking_progress/documents/renewable.pdf
Also, the carbon footprint of battery production has been way overstated.
http://shrinkthatfootprint.com/electric-cars-green
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California is only one state (albeit a big one) with considerable hydroelectric resources, which accounts for a fair share of that 27%. A goal of 50% is just that without underlying technologies, which we don't have since we insist on stubbornly drilling for oil and not investing in other energy generation technology. Our economic and political structure is hell-bent on this to the point of waging expensive wars and killing tens of thousands of people just to ensure stable fossil fuel markets. I suspect very strongly that we will continue the status quo (which is at present viciously defended) until fossil fuels eventually run out.

Do keep in mind that right now, any energy generation or storage device requires fossil fuels to build and transport. As the price of fossil fuels rises, so will the price of the replacement technology. With our economic and political structure it will be nearly impossible to get away from them. Moreover, no source of energy will be more efficient (oil is a chemical miracle, nothing even approaches its energy density) unless we really learn to manipulate the strong and weak nuclear forces (right now the cutting edge of technology is literally banging rocks together). I see no drive to do that now, nor have I seen one in my lifetime.

All this really sucks for your descendants. I am very glad I haven't any.
 
Well I'd say if the economics were there it wouldn't be such a stubborn proposition.
 
@steingar painted kind of a depressing (though not inaccurate) picture there.. I've been reading about space based solar power arrays for a while now, links below, the idea seems sound, if not monstrously expensive for initial build out, but in the big picture it seems to make sense as far as getting "free energy" from the sun

What's tough is getting the kind of power storage for electricity as we have from fossil based fuels.. the energy density of gasoline / kerosene / diesel is still unmatched by batteries, and the cost of the equivalent energy is still very low.. this is a link to Wikipedia, only because the source peer reviewed journals require much more sleuthing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density

http://www.businessinsider.com/space-based-solar-panels-beam-unlimited-energy-to-earth-2015-9
http://www.nss.org/settlement/ssp/
 
My local pipistrel guy told me different. Maybe he's wrong. Pipistrel HAS claimed to have one, but I've yet to seen one in an owners hands.

A motor glider also is a special case, but I'll grant you that one under the disclaimers you made regarding practicality.

So, maybe, there will be two planes of limited practicality available in the us this year. According to marketing folks. ;)

tspear said:
http://www.pipistrel.si/plane/taurus-electro/overview
http://www.pipistrel.si/plane/alpha-electro/overview

Taurus has been in production for a few years.
Alpha now shipping. First two for the USA will delivered to the customers at Airventure.

There are others. Mostly small one/off solutions attached to sail planes using technology such as www.front-electric-sustainer.com/

Tim
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Tantalum said:
@steingar painted kind of a depressing (though not inaccurate) picture there.. I've been reading about space based solar power arrays for a while now, links below, the idea seems sound, if not monstrously expensive for initial build out, but in the big picture it seems to make sense as far as getting "free energy" from the sun
Click to expand...

Nothing is ever free. But without a robust space presence, orbital solar platforms make little sense, and will not be cost effective. Large swaths of America are deserts. A much greater return to coat those with solar arrays, for example (something we aren't doing).

Tantalum said:
What's tough is getting the kind of power storage for electricity as we have from fossil based fuels.. the energy density of gasoline / kerosene / diesel is still unmatched by batteries, and the cost of the equivalent energy is still very low.
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True, and a bigger problem is batteries are chemical in nature. There are only so many ways to swap around electrons with chemicals, so battery technology improves very slowly. And like I said, we aren't really exploring generation of energy in the amounts we need in any other way. I fear this will not end well.
 
steingar said:
Nothing is ever free. But without a robust space presence, orbital solar platforms make little sense, and will not be cost effective. Large swaths of America are deserts. A much greater return to coat those with solar arrays, for example (something we aren't doing).
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Now, think bout this for a moment.....what would happen if we could find cheap access to space?

Reusable launch vehicles are a distant future away...It's beginning to happen.:yes:
 
tspear said:
Hybrid is also a great bridging technology for energy density. I am not sure about you, but most pilots I know actually cruise between 45% and 65% power most of the time. That means you are carrying a lot more weight, complexity... for the remaining power used in take off and climb. An electric motor with constant torque does not need a variable pitch propeller, can be placed in optimal manor for aerodynamics.... The generator could provide only 60% of the required ship power leaving 5% available to charge the batteries.

Tim
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So more like diesel-electric locomotive or a Volt rather than "hybrid". I'm not sure about cost or complexity, but I like this idea in principle. You can get 100% off the battery a few short times for takeoff and climbs(probably more than you could otherwise get from full-sized engine), but otherwise better stay at 60% ish to charge from relatively small generator. Only downside is that the plane will have limited number of take-offs until recharged.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
Now, think bout this for a moment.....what would happen if we could find cheap access to space?

Reusable launch vehicles are a distant future away...It's beginning to happen.:yes:
Click to expand...

It is still amazingly expensive to get into space, thus the set up costs for a solar array are orders of magnitude higher than a terrestrial one. And the costs to fix it when it breaks (space is very hard on machines) is also breathtaking. Terrestrial solar platforms on dry patches of terra firma, say the US southwest, are still far less expensive, and we still aren't doing it. The reasons are simple. It takes fossil fuels to build the solar arrays, and as such they're still more expensive and probably always will be.
 
tinerj said:
A lot of us (pilots who fly for fun) make a one or two dawn or evening flights a week of about an hour, so electric aircraft will fill our requirements a lot sooner than 50 years..
Click to expand...

Then it's surprising the Skycatcher didn't sell better. :rolleyes:

In the US 95% of the daily drive distance is under 40 miles, with the average commute distance of 13.6 miles. People could have been driving electric cars decades ago, long before Tesla or Leaf.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
Now, think bout this for a moment.....what would happen if we could find cheap access to space?

Reusable launch vehicles are a distant future away...It's beginning to happen.:yes:
Click to expand...

Pah! Just a good holdover until we can build a beanstalk (space elevator).
 
steingar said:
There are only so many ways to swap around electrons with chemicals
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Yup, while it is true that we "don't know what we don't know" I don't think there's going to be a Eureka moment where we'll suddenly have batteries with the same energy storage capacity as the equivalent volume of a fossil fuel. People like to say that "the technology will improve" and "someday XYZ" and while part of that is true I don't there being a breakthrough technological upgrade like we saw with the advent of the steam engine, internal combustion engine, jet engine, nuclear power, etc. Electricity and battery have been around since the 1800s.. it's not a new thing
 
Tantalum said:
Yup, while it is true that we "don't know what we don't know" I don't think there's going to be a Eureka moment where we'll suddenly have batteries with the same energy storage capacity as the equivalent volume of a fossil fuel. People like to say that "the technology will improve" and "someday XYZ" and while part of that is true I don't there being a breakthrough technological upgrade like we saw with the advent of the steam engine, internal combustion engine, jet engine, nuclear power, etc. Electricity and battery have been around since the 1800s.. it's not a new thing
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You are of course correct. That's the real problem. Our understanding of electrochemistry is quite deep (unlike our understanding of the strong nuclear force) and as a result paradigm changing results are few and far between. I thus have strong doubts about future super batteries that will offer the energy density of oil. That said, if we did understand nuclear physics sufficiently to create safe power stations our energy woes would be a thing of the past. Again, i about we ever will. Too much energy and coin spent keeping things the way they are.
 
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