Airspace confusion

jhoyt

jhoyt

Pre-Flight
Joined
Jun 29, 2014
Messages
46
Location
Yakima
Display Name
Display name:
Jim
Fellow aviators--presently soloing, starting cross country flights. Still smacking my head against the wall when studying the different types of airspace. I can easily memorize the types for exam questions, but struggle to "put it all together" in a practical sense. Any words of wisdom from you all out there on how to make it simple? I like to compartmentalize stuff and focus on what is important vs. unimportant. It has been difficult to figure out PRACTICALLY how to apply airspace knowledge to my flights, and how to simplify things. Ideas anyone? Beuhler? Buehler?
Modify message
 
jhoyt said:
Fellow aviators--presently soloing, starting cross country flights. Still smacking my head against the wall when studying the different types of airspace. I can easily memorize the types for exam questions, but struggle to "put it all together" in a practical sense. Any words of wisdom from you all out there on how to make it simple? I like to compartmentalize stuff and focus on what is important vs. unimportant. It has been difficult to figure out PRACTICALLY how to apply airspace knowledge to my flights, and how to simplify things. Ideas anyone? Beuhler? Buehler?
Modify message
Click to expand...

Well, you need to get away from that way of thinking because most everything in aviation, at your learning stage, is important. Knowing Class Bravo is just as important as knowing what Class Delta is. Basically, if it is on the Private Pilot PTS, then it is in the "important" category.

Get 5000 hours under your belt, and you will know which stuff is "Dont loose sleep over" category and what is "Highly Important".

At this point, try to learn and master everything expected at the Private Pilot level, as now (40 hour mark) is not the time, nor do you have the experience, to "elect" what is important/etc.

Good Luck
 
Last edited:
There is no easy mnemonic that can aid in memorizing all that you will need to know. Because everything can come into play whether it is cloud clearances in Class G airspace while VFR or whether you can request a contact approach while IFR. The challenge is staying current on the information.

For where you are today, I would start practicing by planning trips between locations and start asking yourself questions about that route. What airspace am I in now? What are the cloud clearances for this location? Do I need to speak to the Class D I will overfly?

It's a lot of information and something if you don't use regularly, will get rusty.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Controlled airspace is just that - controlled, and so marked on your chart.

Really the one and only thing you have to "know" is whether you can enter the controlled airspace just because they answered your radio call or if you have to have the magic word "CLEARED . . . "
You should have that one memorized by now.

Beyond that - in all controlled airspace someone will tell you where to go.
In uncontrolled airspace - you will decide.

Look forward on the chart. Is there a colored line up ahead - then call the nice lady and ask permission to enter her airspace.

Really, really hard, eh wot :D
 
I second marauder's suggestion.

Get out a chart and draw a line between two airports.

Select a cruising altitude.

Then, for climb out of your departure airport, everywhere along the route in cruise, and then descent into your destination, determine:
- which class of airspace you are in
- the cloud clearance requirements
- the communications requirements

Try it with several different altitudes.
Is there one where you won't need to talk to ATC?
Is there one where you won't need a Mode C transponder?

Consider day vs night - what changes?
 
Last edited:
JoeSelch said:
I second marauder's suggestion.

Get out a chart and draw a line between two airports.

Select a cruising altitude.

Then, for climb out of your departure airport, everywhere along the route in cruise, and then descent into your destination, determine:
- which class of airspace you are in
- the cloud clearance requirements
- the communications requirements

Try it with several different altitudes.
Is there one where you won't need to talk to ATC?
Is there one where you won't need a Mode C transponder?
Click to expand...

This in essence is how my examiner covered the topics of airspace. Got out my chart, drew a line between our home Airpot and another, and asked scenario based questions depending on where we were along the flight. This covered both chart knowledge and airspace knowledge. He also tossed in some questions about the airports that demonstrated how to use the A/FD.

So the suggestion above is a good practice method.
 
jhoyt said:
Fellow aviators--presently soloing, starting cross country flights. Still smacking my head against the wall when studying the different types of airspace. I can easily memorize the types for exam questions, but struggle to "put it all together" in a practical sense. Any words of wisdom from you all out there on how to make it simple? I like to compartmentalize stuff and focus on what is important vs. unimportant. It has been difficult to figure out PRACTICALLY how to apply airspace knowledge to my flights, and how to simplify things. Ideas anyone? Beuhler? Buehler?
Modify message
Click to expand...

I feel your pain. I started flying over 50 years ago when airspace used to have nice descriptive names that made it easy to visualize. Then along came some digit-brains who liked everything in hexadecimal format. Now nobody normal can figure it out.

dtuuri
 
When I started studying to become a pilot, I was intimidated by the volume of stuff I had to learn, especially in ground school. I handled this by telling myself that I only had to learn one thing at a time. It worked.
 
If it's cloud clearance / vis that's your problem, start with 3 miles and 500below/1000above/2000horiz and just learn the places where it is something else.
 
jhoyt said:
Fellow aviators--presently soloing, starting cross country flights. Still smacking my head against the wall when studying the different types of airspace. I can easily memorize the types for exam questions, but struggle to "put it all together" in a practical sense. Any words of wisdom from you all out there on how to make it simple? I like to compartmentalize stuff and focus on what is important vs. unimportant. It has been difficult to figure out PRACTICALLY how to apply airspace knowledge to my flights, and how to simplify things. Ideas anyone? Beuhler? Buehler?
Modify message
Click to expand...

Welcome to POA.

It is up to you to make the connections. Get a copy of a sectional and start with the home field. Examine the airspace around Yakima. What class airspace is it? What are the rules for that airspace? What altitudes can you fly, what cloud clearances? Look at the tabs emanating from the Yakima airspace. What class is it and what are the rules? What is that smudgy maroon line around Yakima? Are there rules? Look to the northeast. What does R-6714A mean? What are the rules?

Look at the VOR circle and the Victor airways going to and from it. Are there rules for any of those? Look to the south at the Toppenish Wildlife Area. Any rules? Look to the north at the smudgy area around Bowers and Pangborn and the airports themselves. What class airspace is there and what are the rules? What is that funny tire track that surrounds an area north of Pangborn? Are there rules there? And the dashed magenta line to the east of Yakima? Or the Tri-Cities airport at Pasco?

Southeast of Yakima you have two coincident areas that are related to Boardman. What is that all about? Are there rules or restrictions?

Look even further northwest to Seattle and examine the airspace around Seatac, Renton, McChord, even Ranger Creek. How high and how low can you fly without talking to ATC? If talking to ATC, what must you say, what must you hear from them? When? What are the cloud restrictions?


After getting familiar with all the rules that you need to fly in your neighborhood, you will have some concrete (not theoretical or academic) examples to relate all those rules to. Then, go back to the books and make sure you know and understand the ones you don't have in the neighborhood.
 
Last edited:
What are you confused about? Types of airspace? uncontrolled or controlled? lateral dimensions? comm requirements?
 
First, the word "controlled". Confusing because it isn't only 'air traffic controlled space', but also encompasses weather requirements to be vfr or ifr in that space. So it isn't all about the radio, but also how much visibility and cloud clearance needed in that space to be vfr.

I try to start "in the country" away from the city (tower controlled) airports, and work my way in. Much like a natural progression of learning to fly.

Class G: Ground (get it? G for ground)
Starting at ground level in the country, all over the country, the airspace is 'G'. It goes up to 1200 feet above ground level (AGL) Some places in the mid-west go up higher, but are marked on the map.

When this class G spreads over a country (non-towered) airport, the top of the class G also is 1200, unless the airport symbol has a pinkish-purple (magenta) colored ring around it. In this case the top of the class G stops at 700' AGL where it meets the Class E overlying Everything. (get it E for every thing)

Class E overlies everything in the country away from the city airports, with their classes, which we will get to.

The big difference, and purpose of the class G and E airspaces is to require 1 mile visibility and remain clear of clouds in that space. In class E, the vis requirement increases to 3 miles, and remain 500 below, 1000, above and 2000 horizontal from clouds to remain vfr. IFR airplanes can be in the clouds and can pop out suddenly, so stay clear.

Having 1 mile vis and clear of clouds below 700 feet, you are not likely to encounter an IFR airplane, but it is possible when one is on an IFR approach to the airport. That's your responsibility to be on the lookout.

So, class G and E are everywhere. No radio requirement, just weather minimums to comply with.

Moving into the city (tower controlled airports) Think Downtown for class D. 2-way radio required for traffic control around the airport in the class D space. Same weather as E: 3 vis, and 500 below, 1000 above and 2000 horizontal.

If the airport gets busy, then the airspace is classed as Class C: City Airport. Add a transponder to the radio requirement. Same weather.

If it gets even bigger, Big City, then they make it class B with more restrictions, which I will let you study.

The D and C and B all start at the ground, and go up to an altitude marked on the chart.

Overlying all of the spaces, G, E, D, C, B, is a layer called A. Starts at 18, 000 and is for IFR only.

E meets the top of the underlying G, D, C, and B, and extends up to meet the A.

There are some variables and exceptions to this general overview, which you should study to learn these case differences, but this may help get a handle on the big picture, so you can begin to see the trees in the forest.
 
jhoyt said:
but struggle to "put it all together" in a practical sense.
Click to expand...
As far as being on the ground you have almost infinite (within limits) time to prepare your flight. When you plan to go from A to B you can quickly spot (on a chart) all the potential problematic areas you will be crossing. You can refer to literature if you forgot the rules. Since your first cross country flights will be fairly short and to some degree repetitive in terms of the general area the task of coping with the pre-planning will become fairly routine. It is easier than you think. Also your instructor should help you (examine your thinking, etc) with planning your first x-country flights, actually before signing you off for such a flight he has to make sure you know everything related to this flight.
 
Last edited:
Marauder said:
There is no easy mnemonic that can aid in memorizing all that you will need to know.
Click to expand...

Not exactly a mnemonic, but for basics...

A stands for Altitude - basically above 18,000' is Class A

B stands for Big - the airspace around big airports is often Class B

C stands for Communicate - the airspace in which you must communicate with ATC is Class C.

D stands for Dialog - the airspace in which you must talk to a tower.

E stands for Everything Else.

And I like the comment that G stands for Ground.

The above is incomplete and overly simplistic and open to criticism, but it can serve as a good starting point.

Oh, and let me add that this hodgepodge of airspace types is one of my least favorite aspects of flying.
 
Assuming that you can get the exam questions right, I'll simplify things by saying this (I'll assume you're flying a plane with a VOR and a mode c transponder):

Forget about controlled vs. uncontrolled IF you fly at the VFR weather minimums for controlled airspace.

Airspace: Until you go above 18,000 ft, forget about class A

The only practical difference between B, C and D is that B requires a clearance (cleared to enter the Bravo) while C and D requires two way radio communication. The difference between C and D is you call approach control inbound for C and the tower for D. On the ground, you always talk to the tower first.

I'll echo what the others have said. Chair fly a trip and get used to the different areas you're flying thru.


jhoyt said:
Fellow aviators--presently soloing, starting cross country flights. Still smacking my head against the wall when studying the different types of airspace. I can easily memorize the types for exam questions, but struggle to "put it all together" in a practical sense. Any words of wisdom from you all out there on how to make it simple? I like to compartmentalize stuff and focus on what is important vs. unimportant. It has been difficult to figure out PRACTICALLY how to apply airspace knowledge to my flights, and how to simplify things. Ideas anyone? Beuhler? Buehler?
Modify message
Click to expand...
 
flyingron said:
If it's cloud clearance / vis that's your problem, start with 3 miles and 500below/1000above/2000horiz and just learn the places where it is something else.
Click to expand...

Ditto. To further expand on this, if you're below 10,000' MSL, when it is different from 3sm/500'/1000'/2000', it is always less restrictive.
 
Normally, Class G is the airspace that goes up to 700' or 1200'. Have your instructor show you how to tell whether it's 700' or 1200'. Have him show you where it is Class E to the surface as well. (These are the obscure ones)

The best pictoral I've run into are the airspace diagrams in the VFR Jeppesen Training Manual.
 
I came up with this and just memorized it before my written.
A, B, C, D are easy. E and G are complex.

First thing I did when I sat down for my written is drew the big E and G like this one and filled in the numbers.

This may not work for you but it came from my brain so it worked for me.

Just to clarify 3/512 means 3 miles visibility, 500 feet below, 1000 feet above, 2000 feet laterally, etc.

Again, this may look like a mess but it was the only way I could sort it out at the time.

Edit: It also helps to know WHY. Meaning visibility above 10k feet grows to 5 miles because the speed restrictions are lifted above 10k and 3 miles won't cut it when planes are going 300 kts.

If you can figure out the WHY behind all of this mess then you will have learned it rather than just memorizing it. And if I am being honest, I am not sure I really knew the WHYS until a little after my checkride.

999989358106.jpg
 
Last edited:
there really are not any "tricks" you gotta just learn it.
 
or even better if you could figure out a way to convince the FAA to simplify it we would all greatly appreciate that
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
or even better if you could figure out a way to convince the FAA to simplify it we would all greatly appreciate that
Click to expand...

This. A thousand times, this.

Has anyone, ever, been busted because they were 1500ft horizontally when they should have been 2000ft? I'm guessing "no" for the same reason I have no idea how far I am from a cloud.

As far as I can tell, the only time you can get caught is if:

* An FAA rep SEES you enter/exit a cloud, and you're not IFR.

* A reported ceiling means you had to have been less than the required cloud clearance requirement. (Really, only this one, since it's "measured".)

Look, I get why you need to remain clear of clouds when you're VFR. Not arguing this. What is just completely, laughably stupid is the hair splitting going on in the different airspaces. I HAVE NO WAY TO KNOW HOW FAR I AM HORIZONTALLY OR VERTICALLY FROM A CLOUD. Period. "Not close" is about the best I can do. Yes, yes, if you calculate it out, I'm sure the required distances give you time to avoid IFR traffic coming out of a cloud. So? I STILL CAN'T TELL HOW FAR AWAY THE CLOUD IS.

(Yes, I'm a little irritated right now. I'm working my way through an instrument ground school and the stupid is just... there's a lot of stupid. )
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I came up with this and just memorized it before my written.
A, B, C, D are easy. E and G are complex.
Click to expand...

I'm like Bryan and agree that it's only the interface between the E and G space that is complicated.

My approach uses 3-152 (similar to Bryan's 3-512), which I think came from one of Rod Machado's books. 3-152 covers almost everything. Class E (below 10,000), nighttime G, Class C, and Class D.

With that in mind, all I memorized is "3-152 with 3 exception, plus 5-111".

The exceptions, really variations, are 3-COC, 1-152, and 1-COC. The 3-COC is for B, the 1-152 is for "high G" (>1200 AGL), and the 1-COC is for "low G" (< 1200 AGL). The 5-111 is for flight at or above 10,000 MSL. You don't even have to memorize the exceptions if you remember the "why".

I'm not sure they're technically correct, but these are my "why"s for each little variation from 3-152:

3-COC - In B, you only need be COC because ATC has all aircraft under positive control and they're maintaining separation. You don't need to be on high alert of somebody popping out so you can be at the edges of the clouds.

1-152 - In high G (>1200 AGL), you shouldn't encounter any IFR aircraft at all since it's uncontrolled airspace, so the visibility requirements are reduced from 3 miles to 1 mile.

1-COC - In low G (< 1200 AGL), the cloud clearances are just COC like Bravo, but not because there's ATC involvement, but rather because there's not much other traffic at those levels to there's not much risk provided that you stay out of the clouds.

And, lastly, above 10,000 MSL, the VFR requirements are expanded to 5-111 because of the presence of fast IFR traffic.

For what it's worth, here are a few pages from my PDF notebook from my student days:

Student Notes re Airspace
 
Thanks everyone for all the great advice. I think the process of sitting down methodically w a map, plotting course, and defining each airspace will really help. AMAZED that you all took such time to explain things. These forums are incredible.
 
register@teamandras.com said:
I'm like Bryan and agree that it's only the interface between the E and G space that is complicated.

My approach uses 3-152 (similar to Bryan's 3-512), which I think came from one of Rod Machado's books. 3-152 covers almost everything. Class E (below 10,000), nighttime G, Class C, and Class D.

With that in mind, all I memorized is "3-152 with 3 exception, plus 5-111".

The exceptions, really variations, are 3-COC, 1-152, and 1-COC. The 3-COC is for B, the 1-152 is for "high G" (>1200 AGL), and the 1-COC is for "low G" (< 1200 AGL). The 5-111 is for flight at or above 10,000 MSL. You don't even have to memorize the exceptions if you remember the "why".

I'm not sure they're technically correct, but these are my "why"s for each little variation from 3-152:

3-COC - In B, you only need be COC because ATC has all aircraft under positive control and they're maintaining separation. You don't need to be on high alert of somebody popping out so you can be at the edges of the clouds.

1-152 - In high G (>1200 AGL), you shouldn't encounter any IFR aircraft at all since it's uncontrolled airspace, so the visibility requirements are reduced from 3 miles to 1 mile.

1-COC - In low G (< 1200 AGL), the cloud clearances are just COC like Bravo, but not because there's ATC involvement, but rather because there's not much other traffic at those levels to there's not much risk provided that you stay out of the clouds.

And, lastly, above 10,000 MSL, the VFR requirements are expanded to 5-111 because of the presence of fast IFR traffic.

For what it's worth, here are a few pages from my PDF notebook from my student days:

Student Notes re Airspace
Click to expand...

Thank you for all of that. Having some kind of "why" definitely helps put things together. Just having a list of numbers and letters is impossible for me to remember, but having some idea of the reasoning behind the numbers makes a big difference.
 
jonnyjetprop said:
Assuming that you can get the exam questions right, I'll simplify things by saying this (I'll assume you're flying a plane with a VOR and a mode c transponder):

Forget about controlled vs. uncontrolled IF you fly at the VFR weather minimums for controlled airspace.

Airspace: Until you go above 18,000 ft, forget about class A

The only practical difference between B, C and D is that B requires a clearance (cleared to enter the Bravo) while C and D requires two way radio communication. The difference between C and D is you call approach control inbound for C and the tower for D. On the ground, you always talk to the tower first.

I'll echo what the others have said. Chair fly a trip and get used to the different areas you're flying thru.
Click to expand...
I've seen this both ways: Pilot already talking to ATC - who coordinates transition through D-Space? I've seen it where ATC will do it, and I've seen it where the pilot has to go off freq to talk with tower.
 
Class E/G: talking recommended, not required.

Class C/D: talking required, clearance not required.

Class B: Clearance required.

You can make this simpler by always using VFR flight following. Then, it's Class B requires clearance, and all the other communication is taken care of.

The hard part IMO is cloud clearances. For that, it helps to think about the purpose -- allowing you to see and avoid an IFR aircraft (especially an airliner) popping out of a cloud. The regular clearance is 500/1000/2000. Above 10,000, traffic has no speed limit, so you need more clearance. In Class G, there is no IFR traffic, so no cloud clearance needed (at least in daytime). In Class B, IFR traffic is separated by ATC, so no cloud clearance needed. And so on.

Note that many Class G airports have Class E at pattern altitude, particularly if they have instrument approaches. Be real careful here. It's possible to fly legally in Class G, inside the cloud clearances for Class E, and be vulnerable to collision risk from an aircraft on a legal (above minimums) instrument approach.

Note that regulations DO NOT say you must talk to Tower in B/C/D. In fact, there are a few cases where Class D airports don't even have towers, either seasonally or year round. Towers are about access to the runways, not necessarily the airspace. In Class B and C, you are much more likely to talk to Approach than to Tower. If you contact the wrong one, you'll be handed off; just allow time for that. If on flight following, you'll be handed off as needed, but in B/C you're probably already talking to the right people.
 
Last edited:
Jaybird180 said:
I've seen this both ways: Pilot already talking to ATC - who coordinates transition through D-Space? I've seen it where ATC will do it, and I've seen it where the pilot has to go off freq to talk with tower.
Click to expand...

From FAA Order 7110.65U:

"2-1-16. SURFACE AREAS

a. Coordinate with the appropriate nonapproach control tower on an individual aircraft basis before issuing a clearance which would require flight within a surface area for which the tower has responsibility unless otherwise specified in a letter of agreement.

b. Coordinate with the appropriate control tower for transit authorization when you are providing radar traffic advisory service to an aircraft that will enter another facility's airspace.

NOTE-
The pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own authorization through each area when in contact with a radar facility.

c. Transfer communications to the appropriate facility, if required, prior to operation within a surface area for which the tower has responsibility."

Emphasis added.

Bob Gardner
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top