Airspace Bust

Which brings us back to my original post. I never heard the word 'cleared'.

He only said "climb and maintain", after establishing radar contact. Which is why I got concerned after it dawned on me.
If I requested into the B-space, and the controller who was working me and owned that airspace responded with "climb and maintain [an altitude in the B-space]", I'd climb and maintain that altitude without further concern.
 
If I requested into the B-space, and the controller who was working me and owned that airspace responded with "climb and maintain [an altitude in the B-space]", I'd climb and maintain that altitude without further concern.

So you're in disagreement with this?

Not quite, clearances include the word "cleared".
 
When I get a chance, I'm going to dig up my video from the flight and listen to the audio again. Maybe he said 'cleared'...to climb and maintain 1500 :lol:
 
Closest I've ever come to busting airspace was when I got a clearance from Newark tower to climb and maintain 1500' over Governors Island. This was for a scenic flight over Manhattan.

He then cleared me to proceed up the East River and contact LaGuardia upon reaching the Williamsburg Bridge.

After complying, it dawned on me that I never heard the magic words "cleared into the class bravo":yikes:

I guess we both just forgot to use proper protocol. Fortunately I didn't get a number to call:redface:

I am not sure a tower at a C/D airport clear you into the ajoining Bravo.:confused:
 
I am not sure a tower at a C/D airport clear you into the ajoining Bravo.:confused:

Yes, sometimes they can. Example is LAX Bravo VFR transitions are handled by Hawthorne and Santa Monica towers for some of the routes. Those however are established procedures and published transitions that are on the LAX TAC.
 
I'll always wonder. :confused:

Attorneys give that advice for the same reason they advise their clients not to consent to searches even when the cop says he'll get a warrant, not to volunteer blood when they've been drinking, and not to answer when asked, "Do you know how fast you were going?"

Attorneys deal with clients who talked themselves into trouble when they thought they were talking themselves out of it much more often than they deal with clients who got in trouble for saying nothing. And trouble you got in for saying nothing is much easier to get out of than trouble you got in for saying too much.

Of course saying nothing, or not making the call, won't be the best thing to do in every situation (but that may only be seen in hindsight). The good attorneys probably advise their clients something like, "If you're ever asked to call the tower, call me first." :yesnod: Note that in each of Ron's examples, there was an eye witness or other extrinsic evidence of who was piloting the aircraft. In one, it was simply a dispute over who was PIC. In situations like that, there's likely nothing to be gained by demurring. In other situations, there may be. In some situations it might be nice just to buy yourself a little time. There's even an example in this thread where not calling might have been the pilot's only chance to avoid an action.

Of course most of the folks giving advice on the Internet aren't lawyers anywhere but on the Internet, and they don't have to pay the malpractice premiums to back up their advice. So if you need legal advice, consult a real life experienced attorney familiar with the relevant law. And believe me when I say that attorneys make much more money off clients who don't follow their advice....:mad2:
 
I am not sure a tower at a C/D airport clear you into the ajoining Bravo.:confused:

Newark (KEWR) is a B airport. Not sure where you got C or D from :dunno:
The Bravo airspace over Governors Island and the VZ belongs to them.

I know this because on one flight, I mistakenly called LaGuardia tower for a bravo clearance northbound up the East River and she told me to contact Newark because I was in their coverage area. (Just prior to reaching Governors Island)
 
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The regulation does not require you to receive "cleared into the Class Bravo", it requires you to receive an ATC clearance from the ATC facility having jurisdiction for that Class B airspace before entry.

and this


Not quite, clearances include the word "cleared".

So I repeat, should I have heard the word 'cleared' in our communication or was I good to go with "climb and maintain xyz" ?
 
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I'm a class B controller. This first paragraph is entirely unrelated, but if a pilot fails to use prescribed visual separation phraseology the controller will be issued a separation error. Now, said proper phraseology is contained within FAA order 7110.65 and not in a normal pilot publication. Most pilots with familiarity on the use of visual separation surprisingly do know the proper phraseology despite this.

In a similar vein, in a controller publication, the 7110.65, specifically 7-9-2 Note 1 it states. Assignment of radar headings, routes, or altitudes is based on the provision that a pilot operating in accordance with VFR is expected to advise ATC is compliance will cause violation of any part of the CFR.

14 CFR 91.131 states

(a) Operating rules. No person may operate an aircraft within a Class B airspace area except in compliance with § 91.129 and the following rules:
(1) The operator must receive an ATC clearance from the ATC facility having jurisdiction for that area before operating an aircraft in that area.
(2) Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, each person operating a large turbine engine-powered airplane to or from a primary airport for which a Class B airspace area is designated must operate at or above the designated floors of the Class B airspace area while within the lateral limits of that area.
(3) Any person conducting pilot training operations at an airport within a Class B airspace area must comply with any procedures established by ATC for such operations in that area.

Looping back to the first paragraph, these flight instructors may actually have learned from those who learned from those who knew.

From a practical why did they do it that way aspect, class Bravo is the only class of airspace where a controller has a solid separation burden on VFR aircraft. A class C for example can run target resolution, which is really, really close. I owe you as an approach controller in class B as a VFR 99% of the time half IFR separation. That's a mile and a half or 500 feet of altitude.

That's why the actual words about being cleared must be spoken. Those words are my pact that I'm fully capable of offering you complete class Bravo services. Yes I've forgotten, been asked and issued the clearance. Probably just as many times I've failed to issue the clearance and the pilot didn't second guess me on my vector. In every instance I knew the separation needed and provided it. No FSDO's were alerted and if we did have an alarm that went off when a non properly cleared class B violator on a vector (we don't) I'd own up to my mistake.

Redtail, You're good on this. I wouldn't worry about it. Especially if it was more than 45 days ago.
 
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Yes, sometimes they can. Example is LAX Bravo VFR transitions are handled by Hawthorne and Santa Monica towers for some of the routes. Those however are established procedures and published transitions that are on the LAX TAC.

Bad example. While it is true that SMO/HHR towers coordinate the transition, the clearance is issued by LAX tower on 119.8.
 
There are special rules for the Hudson River SFRA, but I'm not up to speed on them as I've not yet done the special course for that airspace.

It's just a few paragraphs in §93.350-3, recapped on the front and back of the NY TAC.
 
That's why the actual words about being cleared must be spoken. Those words are my pact that I'm fully capable of offering you complete class Bravo services. Yes I've forgotten, been asked and issued the clearance.

On each of the several occasions that I've received VFR vectors into Class B without hearing "Cleared into Class B", the word "cleared" was not spoken at all.

When that happens, I request "Confirm cleared Class B" (leaving unspecified whether it was the controller's omission or my own failure to hear or remember). It's always turned out that that was indeed the controller's intention.
 
So I repeat, should I have heard the word 'cleared' in our communication or was I good to go with "climb and maintain xyz" ?

You should have heard the word "cleared" from the ATC facility having jurisdiction for that area. That's what the regulation requires, but aircraft often enter Class B airspace without receiving an ATC clearance from the ATC facility having jurisdiction for that area with no penalty.
 
You should have heard the word "cleared" from the ATC facility having jurisdiction for that area. That's what the regulation requires, but aircraft often enter Class B airspace without receiving an ATC clearance from the ATC facility having jurisdiction for that area with no penalty.

Thank you Captain.
Spock out
 

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I am not sure a tower at a C/D airport clear you into the ajoining Bravo.:confused:
Other than under the provisions of an LoA or specific coordination with the TRACON, they can't. Asked and answered by the Chief Counsel some time back. However, EWR Tower is in the NY Class B surface area, and there may be special provisions for the HR SFRA in that regard, but I don't know.
 
You should have heard the word "cleared" from the ATC facility having jurisdiction for that area. That's what the regulation requires, but aircraft often enter Class B airspace without receiving an ATC clearance from the ATC facility having jurisdiction for that area with no penalty.
...and controllers sometimes fail to use that word in that situation but it's obvious what they meant. When that happens, sometimes it behooves the pilot to wring that specific word out of the controller, but sometimes (e.g., 5:30pm on Friday around JFK when the controller says "OK, 22RL into the Bravo 5500, break, Redbird 742 left direct WAVEY climb and maintain 12,000 contact Boston Center...") it doesn't.
 
Other than under the provisions of an LoA or specific coordination with the TRACON, they can't. Asked and answered by the Chief Counsel some time back. However, EWR Tower is in the NY Class B surface area, and there may be special provisions for the HR SFRA in that regard, but I don't know.

Thanks Ron and Redtail......
I didn't research that Newark was a Bravo tower, so my bad....:redface:
 
The regulation does not require you to receive "cleared into the Class Bravo", it requires you to receive an ATC clearance from the ATC facility having jurisdiction for that Class B airspace before entry.


Not quite, clearances include the word "cleared".



He does appear to be contradicting himself. :confused:



You should have heard the word "cleared" from the ATC facility having jurisdiction for that area. That's what the regulation requires, but aircraft often enter Class B airspace without receiving an ATC clearance from the ATC facility having jurisdiction for that area with no penalty.

Now, I am scratching my head.
 
The regulation does not specify the word "cleared", just that the pilot receive an ATC clearance.
The operator must receive an ATC clearance from the ATC facility having jurisdiction for that area before operating an aircraft in that area.
When one looks for the regulatory definition of an ATC clearance, there isn't one, but there is in the P/CG the following:
ATC CLEARANCE-
(See AIR TRAFFIC CLEARANCE.)
...and then when we check the regs for the definition of "Air traffic Clearance", the word "cleared" isn't in there, either:
Air traffic clearance means an authorization by air traffic control, for the purpose of preventing collision between known aircraft, for an aircraft to proceed under specified traffic conditions within controlled airspace.
Further explanation of the term is found in the P/CG:
AIR TRAFFIC CLEARANCE- An authorization by air traffic control for the purpose of preventing collision between known aircraft, for an aircraft to proceed under specified traffic conditions within controlled airspace. The pilot-in-command of an aircraft may not deviate from the provisions of a visual flight rules (VFR) or instrument flight rules (IFR) air traffic clearance except in an emergency or unless an amended clearance has been obtained. Additionally, the pilot may request a different clearance from that which has been issued by air traffic control (ATC) if information available to the pilot makes another course of action more practicable or if aircraft equipment limitations or company procedures forbid compliance with the clearance issued. Pilots may also request clarification or amendment, as appropriate, any time a clearance is not fully understood, or considered unacceptable because of safety of flight. Controllers should, in such instances and to the extent of operational practicality and safety, honor the pilot's request. 14 CFR Part 91.3(a) states: "The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft." THE PILOT IS RESPONSIBLE TO REQUEST AN AMENDED CLEARANCE if ATC issues a clearance that would cause a pilot to deviate from a rule or regulation, or in the pilot's opinion, would place the aircraft in jeopardy.
So, once more, no mention of the specific word "cleared", just "authorization".

Now, 7110.65 may or may not tell controllers they absolutely must use the word "cleared" in this situation -- I haven't researched it. But I can tell you for sure that a substantial portion of the time, they don't use that word even when they are clearly authorizing you to proceed into the B-space.

My personal opinion is that this becomes a matter of communication between the controller and the pilot, and if the controller uses language which clearly indicates that s/he is authorizing me to operate in the B-space but doesn't actually say "cleared" (in particular, the word "proceed" seems rather popular with controllers in this situation, and unlike "cleared", that word actually is used in the regulatory definition of "air traffic clearance"), I'm going in without getting into the sort of word games roncachamp seems to enjoy in an effort to extract that word from the controller. I suspect I've done that more times than most of you out there in PoA-land have night landings, and it's never backfired yet.

Does that relieve your head itch, Jaybird?
 
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