Airspace Bust

RyanB

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Can someone explain what happens if you inadvertantly break an airspace rule, such as getting into C or B airspace without consent. For example what do they do after they give you "the number" to call after you land, and what happens if you didn't call? More detail about this would be awesome!
Thanks!
 
Can someone explain what happens if you inadvertantly break an airspace rule, such as getting into C or B airspace without consent. For example what do they do after they give you "the number" to call after you land, and what happens if you didn't call? More detail about this would be awesome!
Thanks!

ATC generates a report through a system called ATQA (Air Traffic Quality Assurance) and a report is sent to the FSDO (Flight Standards District Office) in the district where the incident took place. The case is assigned to an ASI (Aviation Safety Inspector).

The Inspector will read the report, listen to any ATC tapes (if available) and radar track logs. He will then attempt to contact the pilot to obtain his side of the story. In this process he "may" issue a LOI (Letter of Investigation) to the pilot notifying him the incident is under investigation and requesting the pilot submit a statement of what transpired.

Typically these are handled by counseling by the Inspector and gaining an understanding of what happened and how to prevent a future occurrence. Then the Inspector will get other information from the pilot to complete another form in ATQA for data tracking so they may use this data to identify potential safety problems within ATC. The issue will be closed out with a PTRS (Program Tracking and Reporting Subsystem) entry stating it is a closed issue.

If there are other issues with the "bust", such as repeated offenses, then the Inspector can issue a letter of warning through a system called SNAAP (Streamlined No Action and Administrative Action Process) with stays on your record for a predetermined amount of time. No further violations and the letter is expunged.

Then of course if it escalates beyond that it can enter a full enforcement action.
 
You go to jail...and are put in a cell with Bubba...who "loves" pilots...especially bad ones...
 
I see, so you don't actually get in trouble for the occurrence unless its a repeated issue? I always thought if you get a bust it goes against your certificate, kinda like if you were to get a ticket or a traffic violation in your car. Thanks for the info!
 
I would not take such a casual attitude. If you want to buy things like aircraft insurance, or get employed as a pilot then ANY - yes just one - FAA action on your certificate is a big deal.

People do make mistakes, though, and things like the ASRS program can help. Its also helpful to be as knowledgable of all rules an regs as possible so that you don't incriminate yourself in trying to explain something...
 
I see, so you don't actually get in trouble for the occurrence unless its a repeated issue?

A big variable is how much of a "deal" you cause in the airspace. If your actions cause one 380 to make an abrupt change of altitude/direction and that snowballs into other TCAS RAs (Resolution Advisories)... well, if that happens ATC likely will place you "in trouble" the first time and every time.

-Skip
 
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I would not take such a casual attitude. If you want to buy things like aircraft insurance, or get employed as a pilot then ANY - yes just one - FAA action on your certificate is a big deal.

People do make mistakes, though, and things like the ASRS program can help. Its also helpful to be as knowledgable of all rules an regs as possible so that you don't incriminate yourself in trying to explain something...

The majority of PD's (Pilot Deviations) are settled with counseling and closed out. If it's closed out with a PTRS code for counseling then it never appears on the pilots record.

If you bust through an airspace and cause a near miss by another aircraft (loss of separation) then it may get more complicated.

A cooperative attitude goes a long way in getting these resolved and put away. The Inspector has enough on his desk so he would like to see it go away as well. Enforcements are very tedious and time consuming.
 
How hard it would be to catch someone, particularly if they departed and landed at an uncontrolled field?
 
I see, so you don't actually get in trouble for the occurrence unless its a repeated issue?
No certainty there -- it depends on the situation. If the Inspector thinks it was inadvertent/not deliberate, and you have a constructive attitude, you may avoid having anything on your record at all. OTOH, if you cop an attitude, or are uncooperative, or it's clear to the inspector that you knew what you were doing but did it anyway, you could see certificate action even on the first offense. To a great extent, it's Inspector's discretion how far to press it, so it behooves you to impress the Inspector as being polite, cooperative, and interested in making your flying safer.
 
a few years ago, someone at the local airport busted the Bravo at Atlanta. He had to get a few hours of flight instruction and ground school.
 
How hard it would be to catch someone, particularly if they departed and landed at an uncontrolled field?
Lots of factors there. If the airspace you busted was the DC SFRA, they have the tools to track/backtrack you so you will be found. That ability varies with the location, and their motivation can vary based on exactly what happened.
 
Can someone explain what happens if you inadvertantly break an airspace rule, such as getting into C or B airspace without consent. For example what do they do after they give you "the number" to call after you land, and what happens if you didn't call? More detail about this would be awesome!
Thanks!

Why do I get the feeling that YOU will be able to tell US . . ?
 
How do they know who was flying the airplane? For instance if you let somebody use your aircraft? Just curious, not something that has actually happened.
 
Not calling the number you were given? That kind of blows the cooperative attitude you wanted to project.
 
No certainty there -- it depends on the situation. If the Inspector thinks it was inadvertent/not deliberate, and you have a constructive attitude, you may avoid having anything on your record at all. OTOH, if you cop an attitude, or are uncooperative, or it's clear to the inspector that you knew what you were doing but did it anyway, you could see certificate action even on the first offense. To a great extent, it's Inspector's discretion how far to press it, so it behooves you to impress the Inspector as being polite, cooperative, and interested in making your flying safer.

The ones I worked was "If you are nice to me, I'll be nice to you". Tell me what happened, and how you plan on not letting it happen again.

With that we talk for a bit, answer some ATQA questions and close out the PTRS. I'm happy, the pilot is happy and my FLM was happy.
 
How do they know who was flying the airplane? For instance if you let somebody use your aircraft? Just curious, not something that has actually happened.
There are a lot of different ways to do that, and in these administrative cases, they need only prove it "more likely than not" that you were the pilot, not "beyond reasonable doubt" like in a criminal case. So, if it's a privately-owned airplane, they'll start by assuming the registered owner was flying it, and go from there. Even if you have a Delaware corporation on the paperwork, they can track down the real owner(s) pretty easily. If the owner claims someone else was flying it, the owner will be on the hook to say exactly who. If they owner declines to name the name, the FAA will assume the owner is lying, and the ALJ will probably buy the FAA's assumption as being "more likely than not" true. In a similar vein, if the airplane is owned by a club or FBO, the management will be asked who was flying the plane, and no club or FBO will go to the mat over this -- too much difficulty for the club/FBO if they get on the FSDO's bad side.

So, generally speaking, the FAA has little trouble identifying the PIC to the satisfaction of an ALJ in an enforcement proceeding. For some examples of this, see the following cases:
http://www.ntsb.gov/legal/o_n_o/docs/Aviation/3669.pdf
http://www.ntsb.gov/legal/o_n_o/docs/Aviation/3670.pdf
http://www.ntsb.gov/legal/o_n_o/docs/Aviation/3831.pdf
http://www.ntsb.gov/legal/o_n_o/docs/Aviation/3961.pdf
http://www.ntsb.gov/legal/o_n_o/docs/Aviation/4075.pdf
...and there are plenty more on file.
 
Not calling the number you were given? That kind of blows the cooperative attitude you wanted to project.

Uh, yea, then there is that.

I had one who steadfastly refused to cooperate (loss of separation in class C airspace).

He hung up on me, refused to return calls. I sent him a letter and told him he was now to show up and do a 44709 ride for his instrument rating.

Amazing how all of the sudden he became cooperative.......:rolleyes:
 
I busted B here in LA just a couple of months ago. What's extra annoying to me is that it's a route I fly all the time and I'm extremely familiar with. This time I was out showing a friend at night and there were some low clouds I had to pop around/over on my way back. Before I knew it I was at 3000ft where the shelf starts at 2500ft. Complete brain fart - I should know better. I immediately dived and called up Hawthorne tower (last controller I spoke to) and fessed up. He talked to to SoCal and thankfully for me they hadn't recorded a bust or a prox warning, so I got off by apologising profusely.

It can happen even in the most familiar setting when you get distracted. Best is to always fess up and pre-empt. That way they're more likely to let you off. Class C they're less concerned about - they don't care that much if it's just a slight clip (ask me how I know!).
 
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Uh, yea, then there is that.

I had one who steadfastly refused to cooperate (loss of separation in class C airspace).

He hung up on me, refused to return calls. I sent him a letter and told him he was now to show up and do a 44709 ride for his instrument rating.

Amazing how all of the sudden he became cooperative.......:rolleyes:

Wow, what a jerk. The pilot, not you. :lol: Btw, what do you do?
 
I'll point out here that a SFRA or FRZ bust around here in Washington DC gets a certificate action every time, regardless of your attitude, clean record, etc. Sadly, the FAA is not in control of of the airspace here (officially they are, but not in practice) and have pretty much been forced by USSS to violate everyone who busts. An ASRS report might let you keep your ticket, but the violation still goes on your record.
 
Wow, what a jerk. The pilot, not you. :lol: Btw, what do you do?

He agreed to come by the office. I sat him down, explained to him why he was there. I also told him how he was escalating the situation.

After telling me what happened, and agreeing to do some "homework" I rescinded the 44709 letter and finished the event with formal counseling. He provided me with his homework assignment and a signed statement from a CFI that he completed the task.

BTW, in our conversation he admitted he was lulled into believing that he was doing the right thing by refusing to talk to the FAA since this is "what he read on the Internet".
 
Wait. Can't you get around any enforcement by self reporting through ASRS?
 
What might happen to the Dreamlifter pilots?

They are pilots for a 121 operator, Atlas Air Cargo.

This will be sent to their POI and handled by the APM (aircrew program manager). More than likely some retraining in the sim will take place and some probation (from the company)
 
He agreed to come by the office. I sat him down, explained to him why he was there. I also told him how he was escalating the situation.

After telling me what happened, and agreeing to do some "homework" I rescinded the 44709 letter and finished the event with formal counseling. He provided me with his homework assignment and a signed statement from a CFI that he completed the task.

BTW, in our conversation he admitted he was lulled into believing that he was doing the right thing by refusing to talk to the FAA since this is "what he read on the Internet".
...and then you kinda feel like.....it's POA at work!
...as in, "how do they know....."
...as in, "you don't need to be legal after your insurance contract is signed...."
...as in, "Just leave it off the form."
...as in.." I don't care about the facts, I just don't want to be better! I have rights!"

...as in.....or, here I go again......
..hey buddy, hate to tell you but you ain't got squat. We're here about SAFETY.
"but I got rights!"....jay_us.

"...hey I think I'll throw out some ad hominem attacks and say that someone else is responsible.....and I was actually stupid enough to go back and try to help this guy... ...http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65649&page=2 post 315.....
 
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...and then you kinda feel like.....it's POA at work!
...as in, "how do they know....."
...as in, "you don't need to be legal after your insurance contract is signed...."
...as in, "Just leave it off the form."
...as in.....or, here I go again......

We'll as long as the resident ambulance chasers here continue to espouse their "refuse to talk to the authorities" nonsense, folks will run with that advice with predictable results.
 
BTW, in our conversation he admitted he was lulled into believing that he was doing the right thing by refusing to talk to the FAA since this is "what he read on the Internet".

There is one *strange* thing I never really had an answer for from my PP and IR training. My CFII was an old crusty guy who was a retired controller, had worked his entire career as a controller, and in fact had retired from the class C where we were training.

When discussing pilot deviations, he told me to be very nice, copy the number, and then don't call. :hairraise: What? I said "yeah, right, Ray, don't call."
And he replied "seriously, don't call." I asked why, and he said again "just don't call."

I *never* understood this and never received a decent answer from him. Everything else he taught was good, everything matched with what I learned from the King videos, Gleim, Jeppeson, FARs, AIM, etc., and he was well respected in the area and by the DPE.

One of life's great mysteries, I guess. R&W or any of our controllers, do you have *any* idea why he'd advise this?

I know what I'd to.
 
There is one *strange* thing I never really had an answer for from my PP and IR training. My CFII was an old crusty guy who was a retired controller, had worked his entire career as a controller, and in fact had retired from the class C where we were training.

When discussing pilot deviations, he told me to be very nice, copy the number, and then don't call. :hairraise: What? I said "yeah, right, Ray, don't call."
And he replied "seriously, don't call." I asked why, and he said again "just don't call."

I *never* understood this and never received a decent answer from him. Everything else he taught was good, everything matched with what I learned from the King videos, Gleim, Jeppeson, FARs, AIM, etc., and he was well respected in the area and by the DPE.

One of life's great mysteries, I guess. R&W or any of our controllers, do you have *any* idea why he'd advise this?

I know what I'd to.

An ATC controller is not an Inspector. The controller can file the form in ATQA in the event of a deviation, then it leaves his hands.

Sometimes a controller will just want to clarify with the pilot if something was close or misunderstood. Again, being nice and cooperative goes a long way if the guy decides not to file the PD.

I would assume another way to look at this is it's nothing off the controller if the pilot doesn't make the call. He simply files the PD and goes about his way.

Not sure why your guy would give that kind of advice. :dunno:
 
Wait. Can't you get around any enforcement by self reporting through ASRS?

Yes. If you submit the report within ten days, and the infraction was inadvertent and noncriminal, and there wasn't an accident, and the infraction wasn't so severe as to demonstrate "incompetence", and you haven't been found guilty of another infraction within the previous five years, and you retain proof of your report submission, then you get immunity from enforcement penalties.
 
Yes. If you submit the report within ten days, and the infraction was inadvertent and noncriminal, and there wasn't an accident, and the infraction wasn't so severe as to demonstrate "incompetence", and you haven't been found guilty of another infraction within the previous five years, and you retain proof of your report submission, then you get immunity from enforcement penalties.

All true but the enforcement action still goes on your record. For someone seeking a flying job, that's a penalty greater than loosing one's ticket for a month or few.
 
Brad...I thought with ASRS that you're free and clear??? Or are you saying it goes on the record anyway, just no enforcement? If so, that's a bummer.

I'd like to say this about busting airspace though. Maybe it's obvious. I question the folks who have done it "several times". Are you giving it the seriousness it deserves? I fly around LA's complex airspace all the time and have studied every nook and cranny. I follow the "shelves" on my 530 and Foreflight on every flight. Busting airspace is something I never, ever want to do. It's a safety issue and a fun complex mental challenge: Stay out of protected space, or (better) learn how to use ATC to get through it.

We all make mistakes, but I would encourage repeat offenders to take a long, hard look at their flying habits.
 
Brad...I thought with ASRS that you're free and clear??? Or are you saying it goes on the record anyway, just no enforcement? If so, that's a bummer.

Exactly as I said. Here's a link from NBAA that explains the program in detail:

http://www.nbaa.org/ops/safety/asrs/

Note the last two sentences:

While the submission of an ASRS report can provide immunity, the FAA will maintain a record of the FAA sanction (i.e. suspension or civil penalty). For a period of five (5) years, the airman’s record will still note the violation and length of suspension that would have been imposed had the pilot not filed an ASRS report.

So if enforcement action takes place, and you've met all of the requirements, the ASRS will get you a free pass on paying a fine or having to hand over your ticket. But you cannot deny to future insurers or employers that you've had an FAA enforcement action.
 
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Brad...I thought with ASRS that you're free and clear??? Or are you saying it goes on the record anyway, just no enforcement? If so, that's a bummer.

I'd like to say this about busting airspace though. Maybe it's obvious. I question the folks who have done it "several times". Are you giving it the seriousness it deserves? I fly around LA's complex airspace all the time and have studied every nook and cranny. I follow the "shelves" on my 530 and Foreflight on every flight. Busting airspace is something I never, ever want to do. It's a safety issue and a fun complex mental challenge: Stay out of protected space, or (better) learn how to use ATC to get through it.

We all make mistakes, but I would encourage repeat offenders to take a long, hard look at their flying habits.

Depending exclusively on GPS in complex airspace will eventually get you a bust. The 530 is light years better than Foreflight, but GPS itself is vulnerable to interference. If you haven't seen one of the China Lake NOTAMs, you're putting much too much faith in your gadgets.

As for toy GPS's, I've seen 20+ mile errors in position on those. Foreflight (and especially the associated hardware) is an amazing tool, but it is NOT developed to standards appropriate for aircraft navigation. That means it only works by luck.

You need a backup. Even in complex airspace, landmarks on the ground are the most reliable -- they don't move. You can also use radio navigation.

I think I've told you this before, but I've personally had a tablet GPS try to get me busted, by displaying a lost signal as current. I knew it was FOS because I was watching my landmarks. Had I been dependent on it, I'd have busted really hard.

Foreflight is a fabulous planning tool, but it is not appropriate for primary navigation. It may not be illegal to use it in that manner VFR, but it will be your certificate and you (plus whoever you threaten by being where you think you aren't) that takes the consequences. When you're saying "I won't bust 'cause I'm using Foreflight," you're using it for primary navigation.

I clipped a corner of Class B once as a student when I wasn't doing a very good job of holding altitude and climbed through the floor very near the step-up to the next shelf. I have never done so since. No consequence aside from a panicked look from the instructor. I've been cleared through dozens of times, sometimes requiring airspace avoidance maneuvers due to late clearances.
 
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Honestly, I've never had any accuracy issues with Foreflight whatsoever. But I do agree with MAKG1 that you should still be aware of your position via landmarks and other references. I never shave airspace so close that GPS accuracy is an issue in avoiding it.
 
Wait. Can't you get around any enforcement by self reporting through ASRS?
No. First, you do not avoid the violation being on your record with the ASRS waiver of sanction -- only the sanction (i.e., certificate suspension/revocation) is waived. Second, there are several criteria which must be met in order to obtain waiver of sanction:

  • Violation must be "inadvertent and not deliberate"
  • ASRS report must be filed within 10 days of the date of the violation (not the date of notification by the FAA which might be much later)
  • No criminal act or accident involved
  • No lack of competence involved
  • No ASRS waiver of sanction granted within the past five years
The "inadvertent" criterion is the one which costs many pilots access to this waiver. For example, a friend of mine flew through a Presidential TFR which he did not know existed because he did not obtain a preflight briefing. The FAA's position in denying waiver of sanction based on his ASRS report is that while the violation of 91.141 on Presidential TFR's was inadvertent/not deliberate, that violation was a direct result of his deliberate violation of 91.103 on preflight planning since he made a deliberate choice not to get the briefing. For more examples on this issue, go to the NTSB Opinions and Orders page and search on "inadvertent".

The 10-day rule is why many pilots file a lot of ASRS reports just in case something they did might later turn out to be a violation. There's no limit on the number of reports you can file, only on the number of times you can obtain waiver of sanction based on an ASRS report.

Also, if lack of competence is indicated, an ASRS report will not get you out of a 709 ride.

For more on the NASA ASRS program, see http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/.
 
There is one *strange* thing I never really had an answer for from my PP and IR training. My CFII was an old crusty guy who was a retired controller, had worked his entire career as a controller, and in fact had retired from the class C where we were training.

When discussing pilot deviations, he told me to be very nice, copy the number, and then don't call. :hairraise: What? I said "yeah, right, Ray, don't call."
And he replied "seriously, don't call." I asked why, and he said again "just don't call."

I *never* understood this and never received a decent answer from him. Everything else he taught was good, everything matched with what I learned from the King videos, Gleim, Jeppeson, FARs, AIM, etc., and he was well respected in the area and by the DPE.

One of life's great mysteries, I guess. R&W or any of our controllers, do you have *any* idea why he'd advise this?

I know what I'd to.

I think he's giving bad advice. The call is to ATC, not to FSDO. Not making the call doesn't mean FSDO won't be made aware of it, and making the call does not insure FSDO will hear of it. I think it's more likely to end with ATC if the call is made.
 
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