Airspace Bust

BTW, in our conversation he admitted he was lulled into believing that he was doing the right thing by refusing to talk to the FAA since this is "what he read on the Internet".
Generally speaking, the only people who profit from that advice are the aviation attorneys hired by those pilots. Even if you really screwed up, you're still probably best off by confessing your sins, admitting the error of your ways, and agreeing to do whatever it takes to avoid screwing up again. Only if you deliberately set out to break the rules you knew prohibited your action is it likely that a complete refusal to cooperate will help you. Now, I'm not saying you should spill your guts on things about which the Inspector doesn't already know, but refusing to even listen to the inspector or admit responsibility for anything the Inspector clearly knows you did is not the way to make life better in the long run.
 
An ATC controller is not an Inspector. The controller can file the form in ATQA in the event of a deviation, then it leaves his hands.

Sometimes a controller will just want to clarify with the pilot if something was close or misunderstood. Again, being nice and cooperative goes a long way if the guy decides not to file the PD.

I would assume another way to look at this is it's nothing off the controller if the pilot doesn't make the call. He simply files the PD and goes about his way.

Not sure why your guy would give that kind of advice. :dunno:
I agree with R&W -- no harm in making the call and listening to the controller. You don't have to admit anything, but odds are the controller just wants to chew on you a bit to get an important safety point across and then be done with the matter without having to fill out a bunch of paperwork -- and controllers hate paperwork as much as the rest of us. OTOH, if you don't call back, that may annoy the controller enough to go ahead and fill out the paperwork which might have been avoided otherwise.
 
Last edited:
I always tell people to call and appoligize profusely. Not all PDs are going to be automatically sent to the FSDO. If its a tower infraction where no separation exists then often it can be handled with a polite phone call. If it's radar and a loss of sep occurs (operational error) then the "snitch" will automatically send a report and it's out of the controller's hands.

I had a friend in the Army who violated airspace with a military controller on the range. He was told to call him after landing for a possible PD. He didn't call and the controller wrote him up. That got back to our Battalion and they pulled his PC orders for 30 days. I guarrentee if he just would have made the call and appoligized and gave some GPS anomaly excuse, he never would have gotten written up.
 
Last edited:
One thing I'll mention here is that if you're on an IFR flight plan or FF under a Bravo shelf, controllers will often drop a hint that you're not where you should be. For example, if the controller randomly gives you an altimeter setting after you've already checked in, and the altimeter setting hasn't changed, you might want to double check your altitude.
 
BTW, in our conversation he admitted he was lulled into believing that he was doing the right thing by refusing to talk to the FAA since this is "what he read on the Internet".

If it's on the internet, it MUST be true!:lol:

Was flying El Paso to Albuquerque near the restricted area around TorC NM. A Hawker jet took off straight for the restricted and DEFINETLY was in it. I got an ATC call asking if I had the traffic (I was paralleling it) and told him I did. Two minutes later Hawker guys check in and ATC tells them to turn to heading 330 to "avoid" the restricted area ... pretty nice ATC guy as they were WELL into it by then by miles.
 
I'll point out here that a SFRA or FRZ bust around here in Washington DC gets a certificate action every time, regardless of your attitude, clean record, etc. Sadly, the FAA is not in control of of the airspace here (officially they are, but not in practice) and have pretty much been forced by USSS to violate everyone who busts. An ASRS report might let you keep your ticket, but the violation still goes on your record.

Not true by my personal experience. I've clipped the SFC B once near my home drone. Controller alerted me to the error and I made an immediate correction and admitted fault. End of story.
 
Last edited:
For example, a friend of mine flew through a Presidential TFR which he did not know existed because he did not obtain a preflight briefing. The FAA's position in denying waiver of sanction based on his ASRS report is that while the violation of 91.141 on Presidential TFR's was inadvertent/not deliberate, that violation was a direct result of his deliberate violation of 91.103 on preflight planning since he made a deliberate choice not to get the briefing.

Hm. It would be fair to penalize him for the 91.103 violation, which was indeed deliberate, but not for the TFR bust, which clearly wasn't. Did they impose a 91.141 penalty too?
 
I once landed at home and the desk lady came out and said I had a phone call.

Voice of God: "Did you just land?"
- 20 minutes ago
"Did you fly by xxx and were talking to ?"
- Nope. Wasn't me.

End of call.
 
More often than not if someone busts airspace where I work, they get the number, call and speak to the Supervisor/Controller in Charge. 99% of the time the call goes like this.

TRACON "Hey what happened up there?"
Pilot "Yeah I busted the Bravo because I had a mental lapse/I didn't expect to see that cloud and climbed to avoid etc"
TRACON "OK be more careful next time please. We had a & b going on and it COULD have been a problem. Enjoy you day, I'm not going to forward this on."

Now I've seen guys call and scream about how the TCA wasn't depicted on his (20 year old) sectional after he caused an RA (which broke a passengers arm). I've also been called by a class D tower to track a Cessna who taxied and departed without ATC contact (they actually said they just wanted someone to tell her to remember some airports have towers, they didn't want to make a huge fuss over it). She called for Flight Following, got the I have a number for you spiel, freaked out, climbed into the bravo, turned off her transponder, flew into another class D low enough for them to tell me the type and color pattern AND read me the tail number without binos then landed at a class C with the primary tracked the entire way. That kind of thing doesn't get treated similarly.

Personally I've ignored many, many more violations than I've tracked. If I do track them, more often than not they were a very real concern for causing a mid air. Airspace rules, dimensions and requirements are actually pretty well though out. Its not just some random arbitrary area to allow us controllers play police.
 
At a class D asked to call the tower after shooting some approaches. I called and it turned out the controller wanted to apologize for breaking off one of my approaches because of jet traffic that couldn't decide where they were at. Appreciated him taking the time to do that.
 
A GREAT thread!! Thanks to all who have responded so far...I learn new GREAT stuff on POA every day--)).

Relative newbie here...and....I ALMOST busted airspace one my long solo cross country as a student. Got distracted by traffic that was not talking to me and I was manuevering and trying super hard to avoid him and ensure that I would be well clear of him. When I was finally well clear of the conflicting traffic I suddenly realized where I was and just about **** myself....NOT fun.


I do have a question however (I am not IFR rated BTW....only VFR at this point...will get the rating in the next year). If an individual files IFR, does that mean that they cannot bust airspace since they are on an IFR flight plan? Or is is still possible to shoot yourself in the head:mad2:
 
A GREAT thread!! Thanks to all who have responded so far...I learn new GREAT stuff on POA every day--)).

Relative newbie here...and....I ALMOST busted airspace one my long solo cross country as a student. Got distracted by traffic that was not talking to me and I was manuevering and trying super hard to avoid him and ensure that I would be well clear of him. When I was finally well clear of the conflicting traffic I suddenly realized where I was and just about **** myself....NOT fun.


I do have a question however (I am not IFR rated BTW....only VFR at this point...will get the rating in the next year). If an individual files IFR, does that mean that they cannot bust airspace since they are on an IFR flight plan? Or is is still possible to shoot yourself in the head:mad2:

Sure you can bust airspace IFR. It's called an operational deviation. If it doesn't affect a loss of separation (operational error) with another aircraft it's generally overlooked. Can't even recall all the times I had aircraft bust altitude on climbout when I worked approach.

Example, back in the mid nineties I was working an F-18 student pilot on departure. I gave her 10,000 ft which was the top of my airspace. While watching her tag flash at ZJX center I see that she went right through her assigned altitude and was over 12,000 and still climbing into ZJX's airspace. "Roman XX you were assigned one zero thousand, maintain one zero thousand." She just mumbled something unintelligible. I keyed up center's line and told him that she went right through her assigned altitude. Center laughed about it and said " radar contact, keep her going to two three O."

I never wrote her up and I know center never wrote her up. I suppose I could have been a jerk and called her squadron at Cecil Field and report her to an IP, but that would be way out of my jurisdiction.
 
Last edited:
I forgot to mention, on my PPL solo long cross country I asked for flight following and Knoxville approach never switched me to tower. Not knowing what to do over the numbers I did a touch and go. Tower simply asked me on approach frequency if I had been cleared to land. No I said I'm sorry, student pilot. They said don't worry about it, somehow found the number to my flight school 80 miles away. I landed and the first thing my CFI said was "You made a mistake didn't you?"

12 years since I've not heard a thing about it.
 
Hm. It would be fair to penalize him for the 91.103 violation, which was indeed deliberate, but not for the TFR bust, which clearly wasn't. Did they impose a 91.141 penalty too?
They gave him, an aviator with nearly 50 years of accident/incident/violation-free flying both civilian and US Navy, a 21-day suspension. Didn't much matter which section they hung it on -- he pretty much quit flying after that.:(
 
Not true by my personal experience. I've clipped the SFC B once near my home drone. Controller alerted me to the error and I made an immediate correction and admitted fault. End of story.
Clipping the Class B surface area near your home 'drome of Freeway (W00) while on a valid DC SFRA flight plan with the assigned code observed is not a SFRA/FRZ bust, and is thus forgivable. Had you clipped the nearby FRZ, it would have been a very different story.
 
Clipping the Class B surface area near your home 'drome of Freeway (W00) while on a valid DC SFRA flight plan with the assigned code observed is not a SFRA/FRZ bust, and is thus forgivable. Had you clipped the nearby FRZ, it would have been a very different story.

True indeed, but then there was this time when I got a number to call and the voice on the other end said something about F-16s coming to visit me....:D
 
Not true by my personal experience. I've clipped the SFC B once near my home drone. Controller alerted me to the error and I made an immediate correction and admitted fault. End of story.

Is entering Class Bravo airspace without a clearance the same as entering the SFRA or FRZ without authorization?

If the controller gets a call from the NCRCC because you entered the SFRA squawking 1200, your goose is cooked, end of story.
 
They are pilots for a 121 operator, Atlas Air Cargo.

This will be sent to their POI and handled by the APM (aircrew program manager). More than likely some retraining in the sim will take place and some probation (from the company)


Why are they 121? Couldn't Boeing just fly it under 91 as a private aircraft?
 
Closest I've ever come to busting airspace was when I got a clearance from Newark tower to climb and maintain 1500' over Governors Island. This was for a scenic flight over Manhattan.

He then cleared me to proceed up the East River and contact LaGuardia upon reaching the Williamsburg Bridge.

After complying, it dawned on me that I never heard the magic words "cleared into the class bravo":yikes:

I guess we both just forgot to use proper protocol. Fortunately I didn't get a number to call:redface:
 
Last edited:
Closest I've ever come to busting airspace was when I got a clearance from Newark tower to climb and maintain 1500' over Governors Island. This was for a scenic flight over Manhattan.

He then cleared me to proceed up the East River and contact LaGuardia upon reaching the Williamsburg Bridge.

After complying, it dawned on me that I never heard the magic words "cleared into the class bravo":yikes:

I guess we both just forgot to use proper protocol. Fortunately I didn't get a number to call:redface:

The regulation does not require you to receive "cleared into the Class Bravo", it requires you to receive an ATC clearance from the ATC facility having jurisdiction for that Class B airspace before entry.
 
Why are they 121? Couldn't Boeing just fly it under 91 as a private aircraft?

For whatever reason Boeing chose to sub contract that airplane to an air carrier to operate on their behalf. The first operator was Evergreen, then the contract went to Atlas.

Boeing has a Part 125 operating certificate of their own. To be honest with you I'm not sure why they chose to operate with a 121 carrier. Could be a host of reasons not apparent to outsiders.

I have several friends flying for Atlas, I'll ask and see what kind of answer they have.
 
Why are they 121? Couldn't Boeing just fly it under 91 as a private aircraft?

If they were repositioning or ferrying the aircraft, they may very well have been pt91. However if revenue is aboard they'll fly under whatever set of regs is pertinent and as best as I can tell the large cargo carriers are under 121.
 
If they were repositioning or ferrying the aircraft, they may very well have been pt91. However if revenue is aboard they'll fly under whatever set of regs is pertinent and as best as I can tell the large cargo carriers are under 121.

They only carry parts for the 787. Not selling air cargo services like UPS or FedEx.
 
The regulation does not require you to receive "cleared into the Class Bravo", it requires you to receive an ATC clearance from the ATC facility having jurisdiction for that Class B airspace before entry.

There are an awful lot of instructors and aviation publications teaching that you absolutely MUST hear those words before entering. I'm willing to bet 99% of the pilots on this board were taught the same thing.

What am I missing? :dunno:
 
Last edited:
There are an awful lot of instructors and aviation publications teaching that you absolutely MUST hear those words before entering. I'm willing to bet 99% of the pilots on this board were taught the same thing.

What am I missing? :dunno:

I'm sure many instructors teach it, but what aviation publications do?
 
I'm sure many instructors teach it, but what aviation publications do?

http://blog.aopa.org/letsgoflying/?p=523

"One of the requirements in order to qualify flying into Class B is: flight clearance! With the congested nature of such an airspace, a pilot needs to receive flight clearance from the controller first. Getting flight clearance means hearinf the magic words "cleared into class bravo airspace".
 
There are an awful lot of instructors and aviation publications teaching that you absolutely MUST hear those words before entering. I'm willing to bet 99% of the pilots on this board were taught the same thing.

What am I missing? :dunno:
IFR operations? Normal VFR departure clearance from a Class B airport? And probably one or two situation I haven't thought of in five seconds of thinking.
 
http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/atc/atc0709.html

PHRASEOLOGY-
"CLEARED THROUGH/TO ENTER/OUT OF BRAVO AIRSPACE,"

That publication isn't teaching pilots anything as it's not targeted to pilots. It also does not say "VFR pilots must receive 'cleared into the Class Bravo'." It says, "VFR aircraft must obtain an ATC clearance to operate in Class B airspace." Which is correct because all aircraft must obtain an ATC clearance to operate in Class B airspace. Here is the regulation:

§91.131 Operations in Class B airspace.

(a) Operating rules. No person may operate an aircraft within a Class B airspace area except in compliance with §91.129 and the following rules:

(1) The operator must receive an ATC clearance from the ATC facility having jurisdiction for that area before operating an aircraft in that area.

(2) Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, each person operating a large turbine engine-powered airplane to or from a primary airport for which a Class B airspace area is designated must operate at or above the designated floors of the Class B airspace area while within the lateral limits of that area.

(3) Any person conducting pilot training operations at an airport within a Class B airspace area must comply with any procedures established by ATC for such operations in that area.

(b) Pilot requirements. (1) No person may take off or land a civil aircraft at an airport within a Class B airspace area or operate a civil aircraft within a Class B airspace area unless—

(i) The pilot in command holds at least a private pilot certificate;

(ii) The pilot in command holds a recreational pilot certificate and has met—

(A) The requirements of §61.101(d) of this chapter; or

(B ) The requirements for a student pilot seeking a recreational pilot certificate in §61.94 of this chapter;

(iii) The pilot in command holds a sport pilot certificate and has met—

(A) The requirements of §61.325 of this chapter; or

(B ) The requirements for a student pilot seeking a recreational pilot certificate in §61.94 of this chapter; or

(iv) The aircraft is operated by a student pilot who has met the requirements of §61.94 or §61.95 of this chapter, as applicable.

(2) Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraphs (b)(1)(ii), (b)(1)(iii) and (b)(1)(iv) of this section, no person may take off or land a civil aircraft at those airports listed in section 4 of appendix D to this part unless the pilot in command holds at least a private pilot certificate.

(c) Communications and navigation equipment requirements. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft within a Class B airspace area unless that aircraft is equipped with—

(1) For IFR operation. An operable VOR or TACAN receiver or an operable and suitable RNAV system; and

(2) For all operations. An operable two-way radio capable of communications with ATC on appropriate frequencies for that Class B airspace area.

(d) Other equipment requirements. No person may operate an aircraft in a Class B airspace area unless the aircraft is equipped with—

(1) The applicable operating transponder and automatic altitude reporting equipment specified in §91.215 (a), except as provided in §91.215 (e), and

(2) After January 1, 2020, the applicable Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast Out equipment specified in §91.225.

[Doc. No. 24458, 56 FR 65658, Dec. 17, 1991, as amended by Amdt. 91-282, 69 FR 44880, July 27, 2004; Amdt. 91-296, 72 FR 31678, June 7, 2007; Amdt. 91-314, 75 FR 30193, May 28, 2010]


Note that the Part 91 airspace regulations, 91.126 through 91.135, are found in the General Flight Rules, not the Visual Flight Rules. They apply to all operations. If the regulation was followed as written every aircraft, IFR as well as VFR, would receive a clearance from the facility that owns the airspace prior to entry.
 
IFR operations? Normal VFR departure clearance from a Class B airport? And probably one or two situation I haven't thought of in five seconds of thinking.

Maybe I wasn't clear and I assumed it was understood that I was in the Hudson River corridor, outside of the bravo airspace, VFR in the SFRA when I made contact with Newark tower.

My bad.
 
http://blog.aopa.org/letsgoflying/?p=523

"One of the requirements in order to qualify flying into Class B is: flight clearance! With the congested nature of such an airspace, a pilot needs to receive flight clearance from the controller first. Getting flight clearance means hearinf the magic words "cleared into class bravo airspace".

I don't consider an instructor's blog to be an aviation publication.
 
How about 'Flying Magazine' :rolleyes:

http://www.flyingmag.com/technique/tip-week/transitioning-through-class-b-airspace

"Before entering Class B airspace you must hear the magic words, “Cleared into Class Bravo airspace.” Unlike Class C and D airspace, merely establishing two-way radio communications isn’t good enough to enter these giant “upside down wedding cakes."

Yes, I consider Flying to be an aviation publication. Did this appear in the magazine? Do you agree with the statement?
 
So technically when he gave me a squawk code and instructions to climb into the Bravo (maintain 1500'), that was in itself a clearance as per FAR 91.131. I get that.

My problem is why are CFIs teaching that you must hear those words OR ELSE. ?
 
Maybe I wasn't clear and I assumed it was understood that I was in the Hudson River corridor, outside of the bravo airspace, VFR in the SFRA when I made contact with Newark tower.

My bad.
There are special rules for the Hudson River SFRA, but I'm not up to speed on them as I've not yet done the special course for that airspace.
 
So technically when he gave me a squawk code and instructions to climb into the Bravo (maintain 1500'), that was in itself a clearance as per FAR 91.131. I get that.
Again, the rules are different in the Hudson River SFRA. However...

My problem is why are CFIs teaching that you must hear those words OR ELSE. ?
Because they've been brainwashed into it by their instructors quoting their instructors quoting...all without actually reading and understanding the regulations.

I'll give you a couple of examples.

  • I'm headed up through the New York TRACON airspace from New Jersey to Eastern Long Island, level at 3500. I'm receiving flight following from them and tell the controller "Tiger 22RL request through the Bravo direct Kennedy to Republic at 3500." The controller says, "2RL, cleared as requested." I'm not going to come back and say, "2RL, confirm 'cleared through Bravo Airspace'."
  • I'm departing BWI VFR, and Clearance Delivery tells me "2RL, after departure fly runway heading, maintain at or below 2000, departure control 119.7, squawk 4321," and Tower says "2RL, cleared for takeoff." I'm not going to demand those "magic" words before launching.
  • I'm heading south-to-north across the Philadelphia area VFR at 5500, proceeding towards Modena VOR (MXE), receiving flight following. PHL says "2RL, cleared direct Trenton," which will cut through the Bravo. Again, I'm not quibbling over the precise words. At the very most, I'd read back "Though the Bravo direct Trenton, 2RL," and would proceed through without batting an eyelash even if I got no direct response.
Maybe none of those were worded precisely as 7110.65 says, but neither is about half of what ATC controllers in this country say, and there's no doubt in my mind on any of the three and I'm "good to go" through the Bravo.
 
Last edited:
So technically when he gave me a squawk code and instructions to climb into the Bravo (maintain 1500'), that was in itself a clearance as per FAR 91.131. I get that.

Not quite, clearances include the word "cleared".

My problem is why are CFIs teaching that you must hear those words OR ELSE. ?

Probably because they heard it from other CFIs they trusted so they didn't bother to read the applicable regulation themselves.
 
Again, the rules are different in the Hudson River SFRA.
not as far as the requirement to receive an ATC clearance to enter the bravo over the Hudson and East rivers.

However...

Because they've been brainwashed into it by their instructors quoting their instructors quoting...all without actually reading and understanding the regulations.

Oh ok.
 
Back
Top