Airline Pilot Quality of Life

[Abram]

I'm not sure either.... I've never sat in a cubicle for 8 hours a day for 20 years.
All I can say is I love to be home, sleeping in my own bed. It's the little things.

This topic is near and dear to my heart. I have spent a lot of time on the Airline Pilots Forum for the past few years, as I contemplate different avenues to do more professional flying.

The two most common complaints are pilot compensation and Quality of Life. The two factors that seem to have the largest impact on QOL are commuting and nights away from home.

With respect to compensation, I often think that the expectations for high pay, retirement plan with a large match or defined benefits, and very rich medical plans paid by the airline are extremely rare or non-existent in the general business world. Indeed, my real job involves HR, Risk Management and Benefits for small and midsize businesses and it is staggering how many businesses don't provide any benefits for employees, including some professional businesses.

As far as nights in the road; many of the professionals I know spend a lot of time traveling for business. Not as much as most pilots, but not too far off. I haven't totaled my non-flying work travel from the last two years, but it was significant. And when we are home, we still need to go into the office!

Anyway, it just strikes me that many careers involve similar challenges to being a professional aviator, including strain on family due to travel!

So I figure if I gotta do it, might as well get to fly airplanes, too!

Abram Finkelstein
N48KY

 

[CC268]

You need a new engineering job. Some are fun and full of problem solving - and interesting.

Airline life isn't for me but I wouldn't discourage it. I hate to travel if it's not my choice but YMMV. A job I would LOVE is ATC, perfect mix IMO.

There is certainly some truth to that. However, it is always easy to look from the outside in and offer what seems like simple advice.

My current job is a materials engineering job (my degree is mechanical). No doubt about it I'd rather be in a mechanical position, but that is easier said than done since I've already built materials experience (which quite frankly I have no interest in long term). If I stick with engineering I will go the program or project management route - most likely anyways. Engineering wages at my current company become very stagnant later on. Realistically I don't have the passion I thought I might have for engineering either. Although it may be a bit early to say that for certain. Even the design guys sit in front of a computer all day and do the same thing over and over - just slight variations. Although this may be inherent to the space industry where heritage is everything and they'll be using the same materials and design for the next million years (unless you work for SpaceX which is way above my intelligence level).

All that being said:
1. My job is less than 20 minutes from me. Most engineering jobs are much further. I would likely double my drive for another job. Oh and my current job is 10 minutes from my airplane.
2. I have an excellent boss and a pretty flexible schedule that would allow me to pursue my ratings. I could lose that ability if I go somewhere else.
3. Pay is good for someone my age.

By no means have a committed to a flying career. Way to early in the game for that. I think getting the instrument rating will really help me determine if it is something I want to continue to pursue. Worst case I got the ratings and it made me a better pilot.

Realistically it is difficult to afford GA flying even on an engineering salary. When I say this I mean flying frequently and not once a month. I am lucky enough to share the expense with my dad (who is a dentist, now dental professor at a University). Otherwise no way I could afford a plane. Maybe later on in life when I had a decent engineering salary.

Note: When I say "afford" I don't mean up to your eye balls in airplane payments. This is a key point. I plan to do my best to live a relatively debt free life (other than a mortgage).

There comes a time where you have to stop listening to everyone else and make your own decisions based on your own research. If you listened to the advice of 10 different people you would be pulled in 10 different ways and maybe end up living in a cardboard box with no sense of direction (obviously exaggerating to an extent).

Keep in mind that being on the road isn't exclusive to pilots. This is a huge misconception. I work with many Procurement Quality engineers who are gone all the time. I don't know how they are married lol. My wife's dad has worked in the oil field his whole life. Works a 2 week on, 2 week off schedule. He used to be gone for a month at a time. My mom is medical sales and travels constantly. These are just a few examples.

But yes, you may be right, I may eventually decide to go somewhere else and might really enjoy it.

Anyways those are my current thoughts on the subject.

 

[austin757]

I couldn't picture myself doing any other job, but maybe that's a bad thing. It seems the happiest pilots at my airline are those with a backup plan. Some guys have small businesses, rental property, etc. This can lessen the financial blow if the economy goes bad. Overall, though, I love the job and couldn't picture myself doing something else. Commuting to your base gets old really quick, so try to live within an hour or so of your base so you can drive. Other than that, like everyone else said, now's a good time to get into the industry.

 

[gsengle]

There is certainly some truth to that. However, it is always easy to look from the outside in and offer what seems like simple advice.

My current job is a materials engineering job (my degree is mechanical). No doubt about it I'd rather be in a mechanical position, but that is easier said than done since I've already built materials experience (which quite frankly I have no interest in long term). If I stick with engineering I will go the program or project management route - most likely anyways. Engineering wages at my current company become very stagnant later on. Realistically I don't have the passion I thought I might have for engineering either. Although it may be a bit early to say that for certain. Even the design guys sit in front of a computer all day and do the same thing over and over - just slight variations. Although this may be inherent to the space industry where heritage is everything and they'll be using the same materials and design for the next million years (unless you work for SpaceX which is way above my intelligence level).

All that being said:
1. My job is less than 20 minutes from me. Most engineering jobs are much further. I would likely double my drive for another job. Oh and my current job is 10 minutes from my airplane.
2. I have an excellent boss and a pretty flexible schedule that would allow me to pursue my ratings. I could lose that ability if I go somewhere else.
3. Pay is good for someone my age.

By no means have a committed to a flying career. Way to early in the game for that. I think getting the instrument rating will really help me determine if it is something I want to continue to pursue. Worst case I got the ratings and it made me a better pilot.

Realistically it is difficult to afford GA flying even on an engineering salary. When I say this I mean flying frequently and not once a month. I am lucky enough to share the expense with my dad (who is a dentist, now dental professor at a University). Otherwise no way I could afford a plane. Maybe later on in life when I had a decent engineering salary.

Note: When I say "afford" I don't mean up to your eye balls in airplane payments. This is a key point. I plan to do my best to live a relatively debt free life (other than a mortgage).

There comes a time where you have to stop listening to everyone else and make your own decisions based on your own research. If you listened to the advice of 10 different people you would be pulled in 10 different ways and maybe end up living in a cardboard box with no sense of direction (obviously exaggerating to an extent).

Keep in mind that being on the road isn't exclusive to pilots. This is a huge misconception. I work with many Procurement Quality engineers who are gone all the time. I don't know how they are married lol. My wife's dad has worked in the oil field his whole life. Works a 2 week on, 2 week off schedule. He used to be gone for a month at a time. My mom is medical sales and travels constantly. These are just a few examples.

But yes, you may be right, I may eventually decide to go somewhere else and might really enjoy it.

Anyways those are my current thoughts on the subject.

Hey if tons of business people weren't constantly on the road we'd need a lot fewer airline pilots


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[hindsight2020]

That's one thing that really drove me away from engineering. The pay and retirement was rather paltry in the context of head of household cost of living and affording aircraft ownership. Especially to do such a sedentary job. I've always found the proposition of a pedestrian job that doesn't afford me the discretion of recreational flying to my heart's content, both in time and money, as a huge nonstarter.

It is astonishing to me how far we ve gone down the rabbit hole when it comes to diluted compensation and retirement benefits in corporate America. No engineering job I've cared to research offers mid 100s in salary plus 16% b-fund. It's all Mickey mouse 401k match and highly stagnant early plateau salaries.

I'm grateful I was able to weasel my way into military aviation. I don't know what I would have done otherwise. I always like to remark I would have taken a job that paid enough to cover the bills and had enough left over to afford flying, but that would have required more college debt, and I know I wasn't cool with that (which is why medical/dental school was out).

So yeah, QOL will mean different things to different people and will also depend on what stage of life they're in. The bottom rungs of aviation have to improve compensation and retirement conditions though. The idea everybody can make it to mainline compensation construct is optimism biased. Home basing could also alleviate a lot of the stress of commuting woes, especially at the regionals.

 

[James331]

...
Note: When I say "afford" I don't mean up to your eye balls in airplane payments. This is a key point. I plan to do my best to live a relatively debt free life (other than a mortgage).
...

Why other than a mortage?

People over extending into for overpriced homes has been know to cause issues, ofcourse we just blame the banks for allowing us to make bad decisions lol.

 

[nauga]

No engineering job I've cared to research offers mid 100s in salary plus 16% b-fund. It's all Mickey mouse 401k match and highly stagnant early plateau salaries.

I have apparently had much better luck than you.

Nauga,
who knows where to draw the X

 

[CC268]

Why other than a mortage?

People over extending into for overpriced homes has been know to cause issues, ofcourse we just blame the banks for allowing us to make bad decisions lol.

Holy Jesus broseph...how did you extrapolate that I meant buying a house I couldn't afford?

You crack me up man

 

[John221us]

My son, who is 23 now, landed an $80K developer job right out of college in Santa Barbara. It is a great company with flexible working conditions and great people, but after almost two years there, he felt Santa Barbara was just too small for him (the downside of being 23). He quit his job a month ago, sold his car and flew out last Sunday to London. His plan is to bum around Europe for as long as he can (3 months to a year). As a dad, I must admit, I wasn't totally for it, but I guess he won't have another chance to do this type of thing. My point in posting this is, if you are truly unhappy at your job, the time to make a change is now, before you have family obligations, a mortgage and other tie you down commitments.

 

[CC268]

That's one thing that really drove me away from engineering. The pay and retirement was rather paltry in the context of head of household cost of living and affording aircraft ownership. Especially to do such a sedentary job. I've always found the proposition of a pedestrian job that doesn't afford me the discretion of recreational flying to my heart's content, both in time and money, as a huge nonstarter.

It is astonishing to me how far we ve gone down the rabbit hole when it comes to diluted compensation and retirement benefits in corporate America. No engineering job I've cared to research offers mid 100s in salary plus 16% b-fund. It's all Mickey mouse 401k match and highly stagnant early plateau salaries.

I'm grateful I was able to weasel my way into military aviation. I don't know what I would have done otherwise. I always like to remark I would have taken a job that paid enough to cover the bills and had enough left over to afford flying, but that would have required more college debt, and I know I wasn't cool with that (which is why medical/dental school was out).

So yeah, QOL will mean different things to different people and will also depend on what stage of life they're in. The bottom rungs of aviation have to improve compensation and retirement conditions though. The idea everybody can make it to mainline compensation construct is optimism biased. Home basing could also alleviate a lot of the stress of commuting woes, especially at the regionals.

I'd say that's pretty well said and reflects a lot of my thoughts.

 

[James331]

Holy Jesus broseph...how did you extrapolate that I meant buying a house I couldn't afford?

You crack me up man

He exception of a mortage in saying to avoid debt.

 

[CC268]

He exception of a mortage in saying to avoid debt.

Say again? Are you saying you paid for your house in cash? If so very impressive. Dave Ramsey would be proud

 

[James331]

Say again? Are you saying you paid for your house in cash? If so very impressive. Dave Ramsey would be proud

Regardless of how I paid for stuff, there is a difference between not buying so much house it makes you into a slave, and buying something you can afford.

Taking a 10 year loan on a house, with payments low enough that you could float it for a while even if you made a change in work, that's smart, these 30 year fixed things now, well

 

[CC268]

Regardless of how I paid for stuff, there is a difference between not buying so much house it makes you into a slave, and buying something you can afford.

Taking a 10 year loan on a house, with payments low enough that you could float it for a while even if you made a change in work, that's smart, these 30 year fixed things now, well

Oh yea I agree! No disagreement there! I never said I was planning to do that...I think we're more alike then you might think

 

[Kritchlow]

Regardless of how I paid for stuff, there is a difference between not buying so much house it makes you into a slave, and buying something you can afford.

Taking a 10 year loan on a house, with payments low enough that you could float it for a while even if you made a change in work, that's smart, these 30 year fixed things now, well

I'm of the opinion (for a mortgage) anything less than 30 years is silly. You can always pay early, and the minimal interest rate decrease is really only 2/3 of that one you figure in deductions. I know it doesn't always come out in ones favor, but the market rates have handily beat the interest savings as of late.

 

[Zeldman]

Taking a 10 year loan on a house, with payments low enough that you could float it for a while even if you made a change in work, that's smart, these 30 year fixed things now, well

That's what I did on the recent purchase of a house, 10 year loan except I am making two payments per month so it will be paid off in 5 years.

 

[Direct C51]

Thanks for all of the advice guys. Sorry for being absent for awhile in my own thread. I know this is a personal choice, and only I know what the right answer is for me. However I am happy to get all of the insight that I can.

Just to clarify, I didn't mean that my annual pay would be equal after 13 years ($100k). What I meant was that in 13 years I would make approximately $1.3 mil total in the job I currently have. With some pretty optimistic upgrade and flow times, I'm seeing it taking about 13 years to equal the total pay, so $1.3mil. After that, the airline pay will outpace my current job really quickly.

My biggest issue with Quality of life is obviously being on the road and less days off if commuting. I don't think I want to live anywhere there is a major airport. I don't necessarily want to commute either, but being able to live anywhere is a big draw. I do see commuting cutting in to time off, and time at home.

I've been trying to figure out this whole crash pad thing. I get what they are, but can someone explain why they are needed. I understand when commuting on reserve you might have to hang out at the base city for a few nights at a time, but reserve times are supposedly less than 6 months. I can't see any other need for a crash pad. When holding a line, you are out flying and sleeping in a hotel on the company's dime right?

 

[MD11Pilot]

I have commuted for twenty years with no crash pad. I buy a hotel room less than ten nights a year and buy approximately five airline tickets to get to my home base per year (I rarely ever try to jump seat offline due to most flights are full and I carry a large bag). We have a large number of trips that require the company to move us to other cities and there are not always seats available on our company flights AND contract limitations in place. The company buys us tickets for those. We work on a 28 day bid and reserve can be broken up into blocks of days such as two seven day blocks or one fourteen day block. It varies and then we have four different reserve classifications depending upon time of day.

As far as living in your work city....again a very subjective matter. My home base city is a pretty good place and about 70% of our guys do live there. I did for nine years but I am a Texan and I will be in Texas no matter what. My income for the last twenty years would probably have been a million dollars higher and my time at home would have been greater to not commute but each to his own.

 

[jordane93]

Even if you hold a line, you still may have to commute in the day before. The hotel or crashpad is still on your dime. You get a hotel once you start the trip. Ocassionally, we'll get deadheaded into a city then night before to operate a flight the next morning. In that case, the hotel is paid for by the company.

 

[EvilEagle]

Some guys bid reserve because you can actually make a lot more money that way depending on staffing (and your desire to do the work). My first year at DAL, we were so understaffed on the 7ER in NYC that senior guys were bidding reserve to pick up trips on their days off and they were averaging 150 hours of pay per month. (normal schedule is around 75-80 hours of pay). Double pay trips were everywhere that year.

If you have a flight that leaves before 0800 you will probably need to be in place the night before because nothing will get you there in time for your show on the day of. We call these trips "non-commutable". Same thing if they get back later than the last flight to your home city - non-commutable on the back end. That's one of the reasons I went for European flying as much as possible - always commutable on both ends for me. I'd fly up the morning of - usually leaving my house around 0745, sit in the lounge for a few hours - grab a nap - then go to check-in somewhere between 2 and 5pm. On the way home we were always back by 2pm so I could catch a flight home.

I'm still pretty new to the airline gig (coming up on 3 years with DAL); what it seems to me is that everyone is chasing something. Typically it's either money, QOL or status ("I really want to be a captain" or "I really want to fly the 747"). My plan is to always chase QOL - I'll get commutable trips, stay senior in category (so I get the schedule I want) and probably really enjoy the lifestyle. The guys I talk to who are most miserable are the ones chasing the money: They are usually junior in category, on reserve, etc. If there's movement in your company (all the majors right now) you will get to choose what you want to chase. Either way the money will be fine, but if you HAVE to have the most money asap then your QOL will suffer.

 

[Velocity173]

I would think a big part of the question is, what type of flying you ultimately want to do? Forget the travel, money, away from home, etc, etc. If you'd rather shuttle a 100 people in a jet vs 1 patient in a helicopter, then go for it. It seems to me, if you're already thinking about the airlines, then it's something you've always wanted to do.

You and I both know in our former employment, we worked with guys that were itching to attend the FW course. They either got tired of RW or, FW is what they've wanted to do all along. I can understand that, I thought about it as well but the allure wasn't enough for me to apply. For me, single pilot helos most closely matches my aviation goals. Don't really miss instruments but if I wanted to go back to that, we've got H-135 openings everywhere.

So, while QOL is probably number one, I'd say if you're not happy in the type of flying you're doing, you owe it to yourself to seek other avenues.

 

[Everskyward]

I had two retired airline pilot neighbors. One was sad that he had to retire. The other said that it was the best day of his career, as if a weight was lifted. These guys had the same employer, at least in the end. So it depends...

 

[Direct C51]

I would think a big part of the question is, what type of flying you ultimately want to do? Forget the travel, money, away from home, etc, etc. If you'd rather shuttle a 100 people in a jet vs 1 patient in a helicopter, then go for it. It seems to me, if you're already thinking about the airlines, then it's something you've always wanted to do.

You and I both know in our former employment, we worked with guys that were itching to attend the FW course. They either got tired of RW or, FW is what they've wanted to do all along. I can understand that, I thought about it as well but the allure wasn't enough for me to apply. For me, single pilot helos most closely matches my aviation goals. Don't really miss instruments but if I wanted to go back to that, we've got H-135 openings everywhere.

So, while QOL is probably number one, I'd say if you're not happy in the type of flying you're doing, you owe it to yourself to seek other avenues.

I'm certainly one of those guys who was itching to go fixed wing. Before I got out I was the most senior line company MTP and would be going to the PC shop within a year. Not a fun job. I told my Battalion commander if he wouldn't let me at least apply for the fixed wing course, I was out. He tried to call my bluff, and look what happened. I don't mind the flying, but I certainly think I can be challenged more elsewhere. I'm also at a hospital based program (ambulance company actually) so that dynamic can get pretty tedious. I think I would enjoy flying jets, that would be the best part of the job.

Thanks for the explanation of commutable vs non-commutable trips. I suppose no trip is commutable if you need to take a connection to get to your base. I am starting to see how commuting can be a huge QOL hit. However, living exactly where you want, not where the job is, can make up for some of that.

 

[jkaduk]

You need a new engineering job. Some are fun and full of problem solving - and interesting.

I can't seem to have it all. My most fun job with interesting work was at the worst company I ever worked for. On the other hand I've worked at several place that were excellent companies with great pay and benefits, but the work was boring.

 

[EvilEagle]

Thanks for the explanation of commutable vs non-commutable trips. I suppose no trip is commutable if you need to take a connection to get to your base. I am starting to see how commuting can be a huge QOL hit. However, living exactly where you want, not where the job is, can make up for some of that.

I commuted from New Orleans to NYC for a year. Honestly once I got the commutable trips I had no issues. Having to fly to work can be a pain when the weather gets bad, but the companies have policies for that stuff and you can reserve jumpseats. If you are in a place that only has one flight a day for you to make it would be much more stressful. Honestly I didn't think it was all that bad. I know a few guys that have commuted their whole careers and are happy because they live where they (and momma) want to. YMMV - some people will find a way to complain no matter what.