Airbus A320 Down

Thanks Troy for sharing that essay. I must have a speck of sand in my eye.
 
cowman said:
So in all seriousness, do you think they'll rethink the doors after this? If so will they do away with the locks or come up with some silly new convoluted solution to it? I'm betting on the latter.

Btw since anyone who didn't already know how the doors worked probably does now, the next suicide hijacker now knows he just has to wait for one of the pilots to go use the can, slip in, deal with only one guy, and lock the door.
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Not much room for it, but a double door would work. Like an airlock. Open one door, step inside, other door won't open until the first is closed.
 
silver-eagle said:
Depression is the ONLY cause of suiside. It is the cause of depression that needs to be addressed. Mental, medical, emotional and not necessarily in that order.
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Depression isn't the only, delusion is also there, think about suicide cults and suicide bombers.
 
"Solving" tragedies like this, or really the belief that we can, is our great folly.

Our society has become unwilling to just accept that a certain number of these things will happen. No amount of procedures, cameras, doors, psych evals., or remote control is going to change it. There isn't one scenario we can conceive of where some of the "fixes" wouldn't be a detriment in another. For example putting guns in the cockpit to repel terrorists is great until someone in a Germanwings scenario uses it to kill the other pilot and take control of the aircraft. Or if remote control was implemented preventing an airliner from deviating. Great, until the aircraft is on fire and the crew is trying to put it down, save as many lives as possible, and the people in the home office think it's a suicide and prevent a landing causing everyone to parish.

Ultimately air travel is about as safe as it can ever be IMO.
 
MD500C said:
Not much room for it, but a double door would work. Like an airlock. Open one door, step inside, other door won't open until the first is closed.
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How would this solve both problems?
1. The hijacker
2. The Murder/suicide pilot


Welcome to POA
 
Alexb2000 said:
"Solving" tragedies like this, or really the belief that we can, is our great folly.

Our society has become unwilling to just accept that a certain number of these things will happen. No amount of procedures, cameras, doors, psych evals., or remote control is going to change it. There isn't one scenario we can conceive of where some of the "fixes" wouldn't be a detriment in another. For example putting guns in the cockpit to repel terrorists is great until someone in a Germanwings scenario uses it to kill the other pilot and take control of the aircraft. Or if remote control was implemented preventing an airliner from deviating. Great, until the aircraft is on fire and the crew is trying to put it down, save as many lives as possible, and the people in the home office think it's a suicide and prevent a landing causing everyone to parish.

Ultimately air travel is about as safe as it can ever be IMO.
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Exactly.

Besides, we don't want to put the personal injury lawyers out of business! ;)
 
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FastEddieB said:
Disagree.

I think there are illnesses where one might rationally and dispassionately decide on suicide as the most reasonable course of action, with zero depression in the mix.
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You're thinking Henning, aren't you! :yes:
 
(CNN)Latest developments:

• 9:23 a.m.: Lufthansa, together with other German airlines, has announced the immediate introduction of new rules for the cockpit. It will now be a requirement for there to be two authorized people in the cockpit at all times.
 
NoHeat said:
(CNN)Latest developments:

• 9:23 a.m.: Lufthansa, together with other German airlines, has announced the immediate introduction of new rules for the cockpit. It will now be a requirement for there to be two authorized people in the cockpit at all times.
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Looks like all European carriers are adopting this policy.
 
Thanks for sharing the essay, Troy.


drotto said:
I fully expect there to be a change to the cockpit door policy after this. I fully realize the procedure is in place to stop a passenger from getting into the cockpit. Obviously, the door works very well, if they were unable to break though it in 8 minutes. I know it would increase the risk of cockpit incursion somewhat, but I am surprised there was not a "secret" alternative way back in. Would it be unreasonable for the captain or FO have a key to the door? Or some other emergency unlatching procedure?
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The problem is the the "secret" way becomes "known" over time. Especially since it has to be known over a large group of individuals.

There could be a system where a signal from ground could be used to unlock the door, which would allow an individual to be vetted by someone on the ground, who could then unlock the door remotely (an "OnStar"-type system).

The other issue is that a crew member that knew the "secret" way might be taken and forced as a hostage to open the door.

Or the airlines could install a remotely-piloted vehicle system....

All of which could be overriden by the pilot pulling a circuit breaker.
 
You can change the door situation all you want, put a dozen extra crewmembers in the cockpit - whatever. All that'll do is change the manner in which something like this is done. It's just people making changes for the sake of making changes - none of it will stop a pilot hell bent on crashing the airplane from doing just that.
 
kayoh190 said:
You can change the door situation all you want, put a dozen extra crewmembers in the cockpit - whatever. All that'll do is change the manner in which something like this is done. It's just people making changes for the sake of making changes - none of it will stop a pilot hell bent on crashing the airplane from doing just that.
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This is why I say just get rid of the lock or go back to curtains. Whatever system you devise someone will be able to exploit it so let the human beings, most of whom are quite motivated to not die, have options instead of locking them out of things.

The thought of being in a situation like that, locked out of the cockpit and unable to do anything about my fate is what horrifies me the most about this. I don't care if I've got no business in the cockpit of an a320.. and we're depressurized with the engines on fire. If there's no qualified person onboard who is conscious and not trying to kill us I want at those controls!
 
In a grotesque way, this illustrates what commercial pilots have been saying for the 14 years after 9/11, as we're standing in line, removing our shoes and belts, emptying our pockets and getting pat down by the TSA.

Why?

If I want to crash the airplane, I don't need to carry anything through this metal detector to do that.

Maybe after this, someone with some sense will admit that screening pilots (physically) accomplishes nothing. What I am afraid of is that what they will come up with in its place will be much worse.
 
kayoh190 said:
You can change the door situation all you want, put a dozen extra crewmembers in the cockpit - whatever. All that'll do is change the manner in which something like this is done. It's just people making changes for the sake of making changes - none of it will stop a pilot hell bent on crashing the airplane from doing just that.
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Then there's the issue in the US of the Federal Flight Deck Officer. There's a guy in the cockpit with a gun!

This will become a part of the discussion shortly. Some news media outlet will seize on it as a huge risk to the safety of the aircraft.

:rolleyes2:
 
The only large jets I've ever flown were the F-4 and F-111, as an EWO.

If I wanted to make the F-111 crash all I would have had to do is wait until we were flying over the Alps and pull both fire handles.

In that airplane pulling fire handles had no 'undo'. Pull the handles, fuel is cut off to the engines, now we glide. No amount of secret codes, fire axes, or cockpit guns (owhich we carried sometimes) could have stopped me.

I bet most airplanes have something like that, some irreversible action a deranged pilot could quickly take that would kill the motors or otherwise place the aircraft in an unrecoverable situation.

Also, let's think about GermanWings the next time some CPA suggests that one pilot and a 'super dispatcher' is all we really need in an airliner cockpit.
 
Flying Viking said:
Extreme right wing wishful thinking...wants an excuse to invade Finland or some other Muslim country. :mad2:
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Don't be so upset Viking, you can still hope he was a racist bitter clinger who wanted to kill the people of color in the passenger cabin.

Because we all know that Baptists destroy just as many airliners as any other religion, probably more. :yawn:
 
Clark1961 said:
didn't we already go over this?

gruss Gott
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:lol: Not if he converted to Islam though. Islamic prayers are all in Arabic everywhere in the Islamic world. Even in Indonesia, the prayers are broadcast in Arabic. To say Grüss Gott instead of Allah Akbar would be an afront to his new religion that he has committed to die for. Not going to happen. Had he said Grüss Gott, that would be evidence that he had not converted to Islam.

Since he said nothing, at least no evidence of such has been released, I'm favoring 'Disgruntled Employee'. Airline passengers aren't people anyway, they're SLC, Self Loading Cargo. It's no different than slaughtering a herd of fat goats, and it was probably issues with the crew being the cause of disgruntlement.

We do not have a healthy society because we hold most precious the wrong things.
 
JimNtexas said:
The only large jets I've ever flown were the F-4 and F-111, as an EWO.

If I wanted to make the F-111 crash all I would have had to do is wait until we were flying over the Alps and pull both fire handles.

In that airplane pulling fire handles had no 'undo'. Pull the handles, fuel is cut off to the engines, now we glide. No amount of secret codes, fire axes, or cockpit guns (owhich we carried sometimes) could have stopped me.

I bet most airplanes have something like that, some irreversible action a deranged pilot could quickly take that would kill the motors or otherwise place the aircraft in an unrecoverable situation.

Also, let's think about GermanWings the next time some CPA suggests that one pilot and a 'super dispatcher' is all we really need in an airliner cockpit.
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You're close, but you have missed the mark. If anything this will speed the public acceptance of autonomous airliners. Seriously, the technology all exists, all it needs is code refinements. "Between terrorists, rogue pilots, and pilot error killing us, why is there still manned control when the plane already auto lands when the pilots can't anymore, and ATC provides separation?" This may likely be the catalyst event that gets that into the pipeline.
 
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Have we established that locking the door and initiating a decent was actually a deliberate move? Does the door lock behind you when you go out? Any possibility he may have had some sort of medical episode and went unconscious at a really bad time? Whacked the yoke as he slumped over? Highly unlikely coincidence I know.
 
Sac Arrow said:
Have we established that locking the door and initiating a decent was actually a deliberate move? Does the door lock behind you when you go out? Any possibility he may have had some sort of medical episode and went unconscious at a really bad time? Whacked the yoke as he slumped over? Highly unlikely coincidence I know.
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Yes, they identified the reprogramming events for the FMS that show it clearly. The only way it wasn't him is if the plane became self aware, (which I expect to see a version of on Discovery Channel), or was influenced by the beam of a UFO entering the data (which I expect to see a version of on History Channel).
 
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Henning said:
You're close, but you have missed the mark. If anything this will speed the public acceptance of autonomous airliners. Seriously, the technology all exists, all it needs is code refinements. "Between terrorists, rogue pilots, and pilot error killing us, why is there still manned control when the plane already auto lands when the pilots can't anymore, and ATC provides separation?" This may likely be the catalyst event that gets that into the pipeline.
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Doubtful. The only people that will fly on autonomous aircraft are the tech freaks who think driverless cars are awesome.
 
Maybe drone pilots now have a chance for career advancement?

But I'd want them to be wired up like in an electric chair - if that plane goes down, so do they!
 
Henning said:
You're close, but you have missed the mark. If anything this will speed the public acceptance of autonomous airliners. Seriously, the technology all exists, all it needs is code refinements. "Between terrorists, rogue pilots, and pilot error killing us, why is there still manned control when the plane already auto lands when the pilots can't anymore, and ATC provides separation?" This may likely be the catalyst event that gets that into the pipeline.
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What's to prevent the guy controlling it or programming it back on the ground from having a dark day and doing the same thing ?
 
Art VanDelay said:
What's to prevent the guy controlling it or programming it back on the ground from having a dark day and doing the same thing ?
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The supervisory software which runs on the heuristic programmed algorithmic computer version 9000 will prevent any interference with the successful completion of the mission.
 
Clark1961 said:
The supervisory software which runs on the heuristic programmed algorithmic computer version 9000 will prevent any interference with the successful completion of the mission.
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Riiiiiight.........
If it's made by a human and or maintained by a human there's always going to be a level of imperfection. Humans - we're almost like a virus.
 
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