Airborne IFR Pickup

Discussion in 'Cleared for the Approach' started by Velocity173, Dec 28, 2017.

  1. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach

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    Good training vid on what to expect if calling for an airborne pickup in MVFR. Hard to have a definitive answer because there’s just not enough info. I’d go with 3. I'd hope that I’d have enough SA at my disposal that I could determine a safe climb.

    https://www.pilotworkshop.com/mastery-12
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2017
  2. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    I'm familiar with the scenario (it was discussed in a local IMC CLub meeting) and agree with Jeff's take, although I know there are those who would consider it a violation to do so. The keys, of course, which the pilot in the scenario missed, are:
    • understanding what "are you able to provide your own terrain and obstruction clearance between your present altitude and XXX" and your response mean (ATC Handbook, 7110.65, paragraph 4-2-8.d. is a good starting point);
    • preflight preparation since you are essentially rolling your own ODP; and
    • being on the same page as ATC, especially if you are going to head in a different direction initially while in controlled airspace (such as a circling climb over the airport)
     
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  3. luvflyin

    luvflyin En-Route

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    2. Didn't watch the whole thing, just until about 6:30 or so. It did say that he knew spiraling up would be safe so that would be a good. You wouldn't have to do it all the way to 7000, just until your above the hard stuff. At about 3400 head on over to RNL staying west of about the 040 radial

    EDIT: oops, scratch that, 2 has him climbing into the goo before getting the clearance.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2017
  4. RussR

    RussR Line Up and Wait

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    It was a well done video with some valuable training discussion. However, I did notice a brief, but significant, error early on.

    At about 3:38, the narrator states that "You remember reading no ODP usually means that 200 feet per nm climbs in any direction is safe" and there is an excerpt from the FAA's IPH. This statement is true, but ONLY for airports where an instrument approach has been established. If there is no instrument approach procedure, there has been no evaluation of a instrument departure procedure. In other words, a little VFR-only airport like the one in the example has NO guarantee of any type of obstacles clearance, and has not even been evaluated for that. (Think of all those videos we see of grass strips in Idaho.)
     
  5. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach

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    Just realized 2 said to start the climb without a clearance. Yeah, I wouldn’t do that either. 3 is my pick.
     
  6. luvflyin

    luvflyin En-Route

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    I finished the whole thing. Jeff and Bob make some very good points and a case for doing it anyway.
     
  7. luvflyin

    luvflyin En-Route

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    Hmm. I wonder if there are any 'special case' airports without IAP's where there is an ODP anyway. Many years ago they made one at Ramona CA, KRNM, before it had an Approach. I think there was another one somewhere.
     
  8. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The other thing to be aware of, is that if you are in uncontrolled airspaace, you don't need an IFR clearance (you do need to follow the IFR rules) to fly in IMC, there is an onerous FAA decision that departing from an airport in class G airspace in IMC that underlies controlled airspace (just about everywhere) without a clearance for the overlying airspace is "careless and reckless." It's a perversion of the regulations, but such is the unconstitutional behavior of the FAA.
     
  9. luvflyin

    luvflyin En-Route

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    Do you have a link to that decision? Was it one of them 'counsel' things
     
  10. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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  11. azure

    azure Final Approach

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    Just watched it. 3 was my pick too, with the thought that if ATC didn't come back with a clearance right away, I would switch to option 1 plus immediate climb. But depending on conditions and terrain (hard to tell from what they told us), option 4 might be okay too - if I could maintain visual contact with Somerville airport. I wasn't sure why the narrator dismissed that one out of hand - if terrain is getting lower (and the bases aren't) in that direction, and you can be sure of not needing to pop up into the goo to get over a ridge or something, then I don't see a problem with it.
     
  12. azure

    azure Final Approach

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    Also, to add: this kind of situation is not only encountered at fields with no IAP/ODP, though of course it's more serious at places like that because you have no guidance for departing and have to take complete responsibility for planning terrain avoidance. But even here at KMPV I'm often told that I need to be at the MVA (5400) before they will issue me a clearance in the air. Most of the time they don't even ask the "can you maintain own terrain and obstruction clearance" question. As a result, anytime the bases are lower than the MVA, I get my clearance on the ground. It seems silly since I could always just stay VFR indefinitely as long as the bases are above 3500 MSL or so (depending on which direction I'm departing, of course), but if I'm filing IFR then I don't want to do that, and if I can't get to the MVA in VFR conditions then I don't see any other reliable way to work it.
     
  13. steingar

    steingar Taxi to Parking

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    Not an IR pilot just yet, but something I just don't get. If you don't have clearance, you can't legally enter IMC, correct? So even if you have the world's best plan for departure, it won't mean squat if you haven't the clearance. Hence, if you don't get the clearance and a void time from the ground the only way you can get into the clouds legally is to declare. I would assume any such declaration is going to be met with a jaundiced eye by the FAA, since the emergency is of your own making. As a result I really thought the only options available were declare or set down. I voted setting down since you've got room over the wires to get to the next airport. That said, scud running in that terrain is nowhere you want to be.
     
  14. azure

    azure Final Approach

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    From the sectional they showed, heading west and climbing seemed like a decent plan, so answering "yes" (option 3) seems like a reasonable thing to do (at least to me). You're correct that you can't legally enter the clouds without a clearance, which is why I said that if they didn't come back tout de suite with a clearance, I'd be declaring and climbing anyway.

    What I wasn't clear on is whether the next airport (Somerville?) was visible from where the pilot was when ATC popped that question. If not, then I wouldn't try to head there (option 4), as you say scud running in that terrain is a bad plan unless you can see (and maintain a continuous visual on) your destination.

    I also didn't understand why they said that heading back to the departure field was not an option at that point. He had a 530, right? Do a 180, plug in the airport id, follow the magenta line back at the current altitude until you can see the field, land, regroup. Maybe wait for better weather.
     
  15. Clark1961

    Clark1961 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    A training response to der Steingar’s concern about declaring an emergency is to point out that the reason for the emergency is unimportant. When it is an emergency then declare and move on to survival.

    From one perspective it was already an emergency when the first call to ATC was made since there was inadequate cloud clearance. There may be some wiggle room here if it’s G airspace. If it really was E and at 1,300 AGL it was then cloud clearance was inadequate.

    Many items to consider and the big ones were the take-off and departing the pattern decisions. I guess that teaching something about making the right decision after screwing the pooch is worth a little time. I’d rather see emphasis on avoiding screwing the pooch while it’s still in “we’re looking at the dog” stage.
     
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  16. azure

    azure Final Approach

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    Yeah, it wasn't clear what class of airspace he was in. I assumed G below 1200 AGL (he was at 1100), but maybe not.
     
  17. PPC1052

    PPC1052 En-Route

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    The IFR regulations seem to contemplate entering class G airspace IFR in IMC without a clearance. 91.173 provides:

    ATC clearance and flight plan required.

    No person may operate an aircraft in controlled airspace under IFR unless that person has--
    (a) Filed an IFR flight plan; and
    (b) Received an appropriate ATC clearance.​


    That said, as quoted above, there are a few enforcement actions that have found that to be careless and reckless.
     
  18. azure

    azure Final Approach

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    Right, I wouldn't do it anywhere there is overlying Class E or higher... which is almost everywhere in the country now... except in an emergency.
     
  19. PPC1052

    PPC1052 En-Route

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    I'll just say that I'm not a good enough pilot myself to try it. (For the sake of clarity, I am agreeing with you 100%)
     
  20. Clark1961

    Clark1961 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Yeah, IFR in G with intention to enter E combined with no clearance is and always has been a problem. Using the E word might be the only way out at that point if you can’t get a clearance.
     
  21. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    They go back and forth a bit but, the wording of the choice aside, I don't think they are necessarily saying "climb into IMC and into unknown terrain and obstructions without a clearance".

    The pilot in the scenario plans to maintain VFR until he receives his clearance. His problem is instead of receiving his clearance, he gets asked about maintaining his own terrain and obstruction separation to a certain altitude, and doesn't have a clue what it means. If he knows what to do and prepares for it (which is what Bob and Jeff would do), the pilot says "yes," and he gets his clearance. It's a 5-10 second difference from the "normal" pickup the pilot in the scenario was expecting.
     
  22. SbestCFII

    SbestCFII Line Up and Wait

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    COTA (Climb over the airport), you won't hit any terrain or obstructions.
     
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  23. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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  24. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner En-Route

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    I'm not the biggest fan of cell phones, but they've made void time clearances a LOT safer (and therefore more likely to be used) than they were back then.
     
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  25. Ravioli

    Ravioli En-Route

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    I subscribed to the mastery series for a year or two. Interesting stuff.