Air Traffic Controller

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ATCLevi

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ATCLevi
Hi everybody,
I'm an air traffic controller at PHL and I don't think I know enough about how things work on the pilots end. I mean, I totally understand ATC and how things work for me, but sometimes I sit back and think, "I gave that guy traffic that is 7 miles away. To me it looks like 1/4 inch, but how does that look for them? Is there a better way to give traffic?" Or sometimes I think "I told them to maintain 180 knots until Jalto, would it be easier for the pilot to say 180 knots until a 6 mile final?" Sometimes I say "That guy is squawking 1200 but he keeps getting really close to my planes." But then I think about it and my targets are half a mile wide on my scope, so you could be a few thousand feet laterally away, but it looks bad on my end.
I'm looking for 2 things. Dialogue with pilots to make me a better controller and possibly a ride or two to see what it's like. I'm not just looking for a free ride, I more want to see what it's like on your end. I want to know what it looks like for you when you look for traffic, what it's like trying to join an arrival, etc.
I live near Wilmington DE so if anyone wants to take me up, let me know. If anyone wants to asks me questions about ATC, specific FAA orders or why we do/say things, ask and I will tell you what I think or get an opinion from my coworkers.
Thanks
 
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I'm from the DC area and recently spent a year living in Baltimore and flying out of Martin State. With a few friends living in Philly, I had the pleasure of flying into PHL a few times, and over/around/through the area several more. Just want to say thanks for the general, VFR-little-guy-friendly culture at PHL ATC.

I'm out of the country right now, and when I'm back (around the new year) will be heading pretty quickly to NC (RDU area), but if it works out that I'm in MD for long enough settling in and visiting family, would be happy to take you up.
 
Hi, there used to be a 'Fly a Controller' program that I thought was worthwhile, I flew a few of the LGB controllers 20+ years ago. Your position seems to be a not uncommon one for controllers.

I'm sure there are people that will offer you up a ride in the Philly area, but if not, PM me and I'll hook you up with a CFI that has the world's nicest Comanche based out of North Philly (PNE?) that would be glad to take you up.
 
Welcome , may be in your area in October ,will keep you in mind.
 
Thanks for reaching out ATCLevi. This will be a very interesting thread...

I have a couple of things that seem to be very inconsistent and cause me extra work as a pilot that I've always wondered why ATC does what they do and they are around altitudes. For one, when being given altitude assignments either during the climb or descent it seems that the controller just waits until you get the plane trimmed and then gives you the next altitude. If they could be ahead of that by 30 seconds or a minute then it would save a lot of adjustments for me and I could continue my climb or descent without having to completely reconfigure the plane. Similarly, I never get to stay at my filed altitude for the time period that I would like. It seems that as soon as I get to altitude I get asked to start descending even if I'm over 100 miles from my destination. I continually am getting assignments of 3-4000 feet even if I'm still 40-50 miles out. On a hot summer day it is usually very bumpy in that range I spend the last 30 minutes of my flight getting bumped around.

I'm not complaining on these things because you all usually do a great job and are very accommodating but since you asked I thought I'd bring them up. I'm interested in your perspective on them.
 
Welcome to POA. Their are a few other ATC folks who share their knowledge on this board. I certainly appreciate the info you folks bring to this community and I think most folks feel the same.

Traffic calls can be a tough one. Same altitude, same or opposite direction, and near 12, at 7 miles I'm probably not going to be able to see them. The traffic call is important so I know what's going on and can think about how to avoid. ADS-B is really helpful on this problem now but the call from ATC makes sure I'm aware of the traffic.

What's really helpful is when the controller gives (or suggests) an altitude which will avoid the traffic they see. I've had that help from a couple Denver approach guys, for example they'll put me right at or just below the Bravo shelf and none of the not-in-contact VFR traffic will be there and the IFR traffic is above me in the Bravo. I understand that you guys don't know if the little plane you're talking to can hold an altitude or heading so you have to be careful. We all know there a sloppy pilots out there so it is great when you guys work with us and help get us where we are going safely.
 
Yes, very nice to have you guys visit. Welcome to POA. I will be out your way today!
 
Welcome to POA!

Glad you asked that! Nice to hear some feedback from ATC concerning how we pilots see things! I suspect there will be a number of us (me included) in the PHL area that would be more than happy to give you an aerial tour so you can get our perspective!

BTW - I've generally found the PHL folks to be pretty accommodating to us VFR guys.

Gary
 
Gary said:
Welcome to POA!

Glad you asked that! Nice to hear some feedback from ATC concerning how we pilots see things! I suspect there will be a number of us (me included) in the PHL area that would be more than happy to give you an aerial tour so you can get our perspective!

BTW - I've generally found the PHL folks to be pretty accommodating to us VFR guys.

Gary
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I agree, pretty easy to work with even on those really busy wx days.

ATCLevi said:
.....I'm looking for 2 things. Dialogue with pilots to make me a better controller and possibly a ride or two to see what it's like. I'm not just looking for a free ride, I more want to see what it's like on your end. I want to know what it looks like for you when you look for traffic, what it's like trying to join an arrival, etc.
I live near Wilmington DE so if anyone wants to take me up, let me know. If anyone wants to asks me questions about ATC, specific FAA orders or why we do/say things, ask and I will tell you what I think or get an opinion from my coworkers.
Thanks
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I live in North Wilmington and deal with Philly all the time. I'll PM you my info. Give a call and we'll fly around the area. I have my plane hangared at N57, New Garden.
 
ATCLevi said:
Or sometimes I think "I told them to maintain 180 knots until Jalto, would it be easier for the pilot to say 180 knots until a 6 mile final?"
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Welcome!

In regards to this I'd rather have the fix. If I am given a DME and see that it's close to a fix on the approach, we watch for that. A mile or two is close enough right? :D

Same for crossing altitude restrictions. Invariably I'm given something like cross 65 miles northeast of xyz at 13000, and after I get it programmed in the crossing point is within a mile or two of a fix on the STAR. Why not just use the fix?? Besides when there are intermediate waypoints I have to figure how far past a fix the new crossing point is, and enter the crossing waypoint as 2 miles northeast of the fix, not 65 miles northeast of xyz.
 
Glad to have a controller on board.

I have a question too: if a pilot calls approach 2-3 times on a calm frequency (as in: not congested) and nobody replies, does it mean the controller is working another frequency? If so, what are the controller regs? Are they supposed to at least reply "standby" or similar?
 
I have attended several ATPAC (Air Traffic Procedures Advisory Committee) meetings and have raised several issues regarding Controller and Pilot communications, primarily from a GA perspective. I applaud you for reaching out and if you get the opportunity to fly with some GA pilots, I would encourage it.
 
Welcome to PoA!!!

And I'll add my thanks to you for your desire to come on to the forum and seek out the pilot's perspective.

Controllers and pilots are a partnership. And the more pilots that go to the controller's facilities (tower, center or TRAACON) to see their world in front of the scopes, the more those same pilots understand the tools and techniques the controller's use to keep us safe.

Same goes for the controllers. If more would seek our pilots like you're doing, it will help round out your ability and skills. Plus as another post said, help anticipate when to give the next command so it easily flows with execution of the previous instruction.

Again, welcome!!!!
 
If you ever come down to FL I would gladly give you a ride around the Miami area. It's interesting because of the congestion mix of airliners and GA training. You would definitely get to see some interesting traffic calls from our end from the military mix to being squeezed into FLL. It might be cool for you to see the workload for us on an approach too.

I live in the Philly area too, but only a couple months of the year. If your still looking for rides in the winter or next summer let me know. I'd love to have you along just to have you explain why things happen to me. It would be really cool to have someone who knows all the little quirks that I'm just used to dealing with but don't know why.

Also- I think it's awesome how you reached out like this. Welcome to POA!

I'll actually be flying to RDU out of PHL tomorrow at noon.

And answering your questions: I'd like the fix. Usually looking at the approach I mentally tell myself where I need to be by the names for the fixes. It's easier in the brain if I say "2000 until SUROY, 1600 until JINBA..." Rather than adding more numbers to the mix. Plus on the plate it's easier for me too look for names and find the DME you want than look for numbers and match the names. Either is fine and will get the job done, it's just preference probably.

And with traffic, the earlier the better! If you aren't too overloaded then it's always nice to have someone helping you out with traffic as much as possible.
 
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Welcome Levi. The plane end of things is really simple. I can break it down to two basic rules. To go up, pull back. To go down, pull back a LOT. Ah - I keel myself!

I'm no where near you but I'm sure you'll find a ride soon. It will look a lot different out there. We have another saying it's called the 'big sky rule' and once you get a few thou feet off the ground in a small GA plane you begin to realize how accurate it is.

One more thing. PHL and the airspace around you is extremely busy. Most of the rest of the country below about 10,000' isn't very busy at all. The air traffic is of course concentrated around metro areas, but if you go 60 miles(half hour) due west of your place, you would find the airspace is about deserted.
 
I will break it up as I see questions being asked...

ATCLevi said:
I mean, I totally understand ATC and how things work for me, but sometimes I sit back and think, "I gave that guy traffic that is 7 miles away. To me it looks like 1/4 inch, but how does that look for them? Is there a better way to give traffic?"
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Traffic 7 miles away, unless a big and heavy, really won't be seen. I typically see small GA aircraft due to some glint (like sun reflecting off the tops of their wings or fuselage) during sunny days from 5-6 miles away. If the aircraft are coming right at me on a hazy day, maybe a mile? It is like looking at the car 3 miles down the road on a 2 lane highway, you don't see movement, just that something is there which can often be mistaken by something on the ground.

Now, that being said, traffic 7 miles away uis a good call since the pilot(s) will be made aware that something is there and they will be on the lookout for it and when it becomes visible, usually 3-5 miles on a really good day, then they can make course corrections to avoid the aircraft sooner.

ATCLevi said:
Or sometimes I think "I told them to maintain 180 knots until Jalto, would it be easier for the pilot to say 180 knots until a 6 mile final?"
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JALTO is a fixed point, and if on an instrument approach, there is a way to identify that point. If on an ILS, the localizer gives lateral direction, and usually DME (older aircraft) or GPS ground distance (newer aircraft) give that fixed point. It is how we identify fixed points like the IAF or FAF so if you want him to maintain 180 UNTIL JALTO, it is a lot easier to identify than 6 miles away.

ATCLevi said:
Sometimes I say "That guy is squawking 1200 but he keeps getting really close to my planes." But then I think about it and my targets are half a mile wide on my scope, so you could be a few thousand feet laterally away, but it looks bad on my end.
I'm looking for 2 things. Dialogue with pilots to make me a better controller and possibly a ride or two to see what it's like. I'm not just looking for a free ride, I more want to see what it's like on your end. I want to know what it looks like for you when you look for traffic, what it's like trying to join an arrival, etc.
Click to expand...

Some VFR pilots are cowboys. There is no way around it, but at the same time, they have no regulatory requirement to speak to anyone in G/E airspace. Outside of hard IMC, pilots are required to maintain visual separation from other aircraft, flight plan or no. So even though you may "look bad" (you don't), ultimately it is the PIC that is responsible for the safety of the flight.

If you were in Seattle, I would love to take you up. Unfortunately, you are not here. I would even let you sit left seat and flip the switches, turn the dials, and move the control yoke a bunch.
 
I'ma gonna change my username to 'cowboy'. Fitting, since I do my own navigation and avoidance, just like a real pilot. :rofl:
 
OK since you asked....one of my pet peaves from controllers-they know that I am flying a high wing single but when I get calls like "traffic 4 o'clock," some altitude above me, "same direction" I wonder what I should say. Obviously it does me no good to look for the traffic through the wing. I reply with the standard "negative contact" but sometimes say "let me know when he is in front of my wing." Yes, my wife constantly reminds me that I'm a smart ass but is there a better way for the controller to call the traffic or a better response?
 
cgrab said:
OK since you asked....one of my pet peaves from controllers-they know that I am flying a high wing single but when I get calls like "traffic 4 o'clock," some altitude above me, "same direction" I wonder what I should say. Obviously it does me no good to look for the traffic through the wing. I reply with the standard "negative contact" but sometimes say "let me know when he is in front of my wing." Yes, my wife constantly reminds me that I'm a smart ass but is there a better way for the controller to call the traffic or a better response?
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They don't take high vs low wing into consideration when issuing traffic calls. They aren't thinking "well he's a low wing so no point in issuing traffic climbing up below him." The call is based on seperation possibly becoming less than standard (important) or if no seperation exists, controller judgment. The later will vary by controller.

It's up to you, based on what type aircraft you fly and you're personal safety zone on how to react to the traffic.
 
Not near you or I would like to gain knowledge from your experience also.

Understand that different planes require different descent profiles and if you hold someone high (especially the planes with reduced drag, higher planes, faster planes, possibly turbo charged planes) then request a descent late it could result in a faster descent than the pilot may normally do and increased stress on passengers and powerplant.
Conversely, as has been stated, if you descend too early it often results in a hot bumpy uncomfortable ride in hazier conditions typically with more local traffic.
So, because of the above, it would be good to ask the pilot when they would like to descend or look up the rule of three and try to understand / implement that as best as possible.

As far as traffic alerts are concerned, I agree with the post suggesting an alternate altitude or course to better avoid said traffic; I have found that helpful in the past.
 
I've had the thought many times that this would be a good idea.

It's extremely valuable for a pilot to visit a tower, even more so to visit an ARTCC (though very few do). It's not even slightly surprising that the reverse might also be true.

I'm unfortunately very far from PHL, and I haven't even been there since 1998. If you happen to be around the SFO area at some point (including a transition through a busy Class B), I'll help out, but I suspect it will be most valuable to you around familiar landmarks.
 
cgrab said:
OK since you asked....one of my pet peaves from controllers-they know that I am flying a high wing single but when I get calls like "traffic 4 o'clock," some altitude above me, "same direction" I wonder what I should say. Obviously it does me no good to look for the traffic through the wing. I reply with the standard "negative contact" but sometimes say "let me know when he is in front of my wing." Yes, my wife constantly reminds me that I'm a smart ass but is there a better way for the controller to call the traffic or a better response?
Click to expand...

I just bank the aircraft to the left for a bit and correct the turn with right rudder. You may have to add power since you'll be essentially slipping, but I do this all time to get a view of what's on top. I also lift the wing on the inside of the turn to take a look around before committing to the turn. This is especially necessary when in the traffic pattern at an uncontrolled field where it is plausible that a low wing might actually be slightly above you where you guys are both in each others blind spot. Must be nice to fly a helicopter and not have those giant wings in the way..
 
cgrab said:
OK since you asked....one of my pet peaves from controllers-they know that I am flying a high wing single but when I get calls like "traffic 4 o'clock," some altitude above me, "same direction" I wonder what I should say. Obviously it does me no good to look for the traffic through the wing. I reply with the standard "negative contact" but sometimes say "let me know when he is in front of my wing." Yes, my wife constantly reminds me that I'm a smart ass but is there a better way for the controller to call the traffic or a better response?
Click to expand...

What you can't see can't hurt you.:mad2:

Your wife is a good judge of character. :wink2:
 
cgrab said:
OK since you asked....one of my pet peaves from controllers-they know that I am flying a high wing single but when I get calls like "traffic 4 o'clock," some altitude above me, "same direction" I wonder what I should say. Obviously it does me no good to look for the traffic through the wing. I reply with the standard "negative contact" but sometimes say "let me know when he is in front of my wing." Yes, my wife constantly reminds me that I'm a smart ass but is there a better way for the controller to call the traffic or a better response?
Click to expand...

You're kidding right? You expect a busy controller to have your wing config in his head when making calls?

How about you tilt your wing up and take a look, that's what I do, I fly a high wing also, but don't expect the controller to know or care about it.
 
Welcome to PoA! It's always interesting to hear a controller's perspective. I'm never quite sure what you're seeing, too!:wink2:
 
The less words you can give me information in, the less likely I'll get it wrong.:D
 
rbridges said:
This is a stupid question, but are we allowed to go in the ATC facilities and observe?
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Oh yeah, before 9/11 it was easy, just hit the buzzer. Now you have to call in advance. Long Beach every student made the trip up the tower at least once.
 
Henning said:
Oh yeah, before 9/11 it was easy, just hit the buzzer. Now you have to call in advance. Long Beach every student made the trip up the tower at least once.
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My experience in Palo Alto hasn't been much beyond that.

Last time, I had two CAP cadets and their mom in tow. We were at the squadron moving in a shed. As we finished up, on a lark, I walked the 100 yards to the tower intercom and asked for a tour. The response was "sure, come right up." And we did.

It was a light day -- ~20 knot gusty wind, so all the student pilots had parked.
 
Henning said:
Oh yeah, before 9/11 it was easy, just hit the buzzer. Now you have to call in advance.
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And expect to be politely denied if you have an accent. Also expect to wait a few months to get FAA security clearance.
Obviously, the FAA and TSA don't communicate with each other. The FAA does not care that I have been cleared by TSA before. Yay government organizations! :)
 
rbridges said:
This is a stupid question, but are we allowed to go in the ATC facilities and observe?
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Yep. My dad has a friend that just retired from JFK tower a few months ago and he was able to get us a tour of the tower and NY TRACON.
 
BigBadLou said:
And expect to be politely denied if you have an accent. Also expect to wait a few months to get FAA security clearance.
Obviously, the FAA and TSA don't communicate with each other. The FAA does not care that I have been cleared by TSA before. Yay government organizations! :)
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Nope, none of the above. No clearance, just a lead to the buzzer, others are reporting that unnecessary at their fields.
 
BigBadLou said:
And expect to be politely denied if you have an accent. Also expect to wait a few months to get FAA security clearance.
Obviously, the FAA and TSA don't communicate with each other. The FAA does not care that I have been cleared by TSA before. Yay government organizations! :)
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I've never had to be cleared. I just call and ask- they usually give me a time and up I go! The only thing they ask everytime is whether or not everyone going up is a US Citizen.
 
Welcome to POA! It's always nice to get a controller's perspective. We often have questions about what happens behind the scenes and the reasons for it.
 
GMascelli said:
I agree, pretty easy to work with even on those really busy wx days.




I live in North Wilmington and deal with Philly all the time. I'll PM you my info. Give a call and we'll fly around the area. I have my plane hangared at N57, New Garden.
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Levi, Do NOT fly with this guy! He is a consummate gentleman, very safe pilot and has a super comfortable plane. It will ruin you!:D
 
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