AILERONS vs RUDDER CROSS CONTROL AND LANDINGS

Discussion in 'Pilot Training' started by Davisando, Jul 8, 2020.

  1. Davisando

    Davisando Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2019
    Messages:
    25
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    davisando
    Hello everyone. Recently getting some study for CFI with a friend, we got into a heated argument about controlling the aircraft on approach to landing. I stated that on final, I like to maintain wings level and do small corrections with the rudder for directional control and alignment to the runway (still using ailerons adjustments as necessary). My friend "yield" at me stating that Im gonna kill myself and that he uses the ailerons to keep directional control and alignment to the runway on final (looks to me he doesn't use rudders). I understand and am aware of the statistics for stall on "base to final" for lack of rudder CONTROL (non-control / over-control). But I believe and was taught to use the rudder for alignment on final. Of course I use ailerons for wind compensation and on the runway I put more aileron into the wind and rudder as required for correct alignment to the runway. But it seems to me that my friend has less rudder control than I think he should, plus he is making me feel I am doing something awfully wrong. I would love to hear your comments. Thanks!
     
  2. Salty

    Salty Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2016
    Messages:
    8,196
    Location:
    FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Salty
    It's called a side slip, and it's the proper way to land in a cross wind. Kinda confused how either of you have a cert without knowing this.
     
    Huckster79 likes this.
  3. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    13,241
    Location:
    DXO124009
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Light and Sporty Guy
    Ailerons to keep over centerline, rudder to keep the nose pointed straight once you are over the fence. Ain't no other way to do it. At least that's how it works in an old taildragger.
    Coming down final, slip or crab. Don't make no difference unless you are a bit high and need to slip anyhow. At least that's how it works in an old taildragger with no flaps.
    (If you don't have a pedal to the floor, it ain't much of a slip.)
     
  4. FlySince9

    FlySince9 En-Route

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2011
    Messages:
    3,158
    Location:
    Huntersville, NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jerry
    Aileron for drift...Rudder for alignment
     
    Davisando likes this.
  5. exncsurfer

    exncsurfer Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2014
    Messages:
    1,934
    Location:
    NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    exncsurfer
    You're probably both doing the same thing and describing it differently. You can't really use rudder to correct a crab angle without aileron to keep you on center line or you'll drift to the side.
     
    Davisando likes this.
  6. Davisando

    Davisando Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2019
    Messages:
    25
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    davisando
    Yes, thats what I thought, and I was trying to tell him that, but it seems like he doesn't use rudder at all inflight...
     
  7. Davisando

    Davisando Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2019
    Messages:
    25
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    davisando
    Thing is, I was trying to describe it without the name to give the "way" procedure of doing it to see if perhaps I was doing it wrong somehow. I've being always confident on the procedure and have worked great, but he got in my mind, that maybe, I was side slipping the wrong way, using a different technique that might be dangerous.
     
  8. Domenick

    Domenick Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2019
    Messages:
    608
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Domenick
    Perhaps he is confusing "final approach" and "base to final turn."
     
    bflynn and Davisando like this.
  9. Salty

    Salty Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2016
    Messages:
    8,196
    Location:
    FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Salty
    Page 8-11
    https://www.faa.gov/regulations_pol...iation/airplane_handbook/media/10_afh_ch8.pdf

     
  10. Skyrys62

    Skyrys62 En-Route

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2017
    Messages:
    3,060
    Location:
    hopefully not at work
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Meet the Fokkers
    Maybe he needs to go up with a CFI for a while...at least one who will teach him.

    My CFI never said a word to me about coordinating during base to final. I picked up on it myself by reading (after several hours with him)...so yeah, it happens.
     
  11. atbroome

    atbroome Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2009
    Messages:
    258
    Location:
    VA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    ATB
    At some point before touchdown you transition to "not wings level" in order to land on the upwind wheel when there is a crosswind, right?
     
    TCABM and Davisando like this.
  12. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    13,241
    Location:
    DXO124009
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Light and Sporty Guy
    Need to put him in my ride. Move the stick to the left, with no rudder the aircraft turns to the right. It's called adverse yaw, and I have it in spades... But, it's not a real airplane, it's an LSA taildragger.
     
    Davisando likes this.
  13. kath

    kath Administrator Management Council Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2005
    Messages:
    1,441
    Location:
    Anchorage, AK
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Katherine
    Too bad the word "align" can mean two different things. You've got to align around yaw (rudder), and also align laterally (aileron). Can get confusing if a CFI is using the word one way, and the student is hearing the other way.

    We should invent some new words! :)
     
    Davisando likes this.
  14. Stingray Don

    Stingray Don En-Route

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2014
    Messages:
    2,927
    Location:
    Indianapolis, Indiana
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Stingray Don
    Does he fly an Ercoupe not equipped with rudder pedals? :D
     
    Davisando likes this.
  15. SixPapaCharlie

    SixPapaCharlie May the force be with you

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2013
    Messages:
    14,731
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    6PC
    So..... there is the Crab and kick method which is what you are doing. And there is the slip which is what your friend is doing.
    Neither of you are going to kill yourselves. You might be at a higher risk of side loading your landing gear.

    I always did the crab and kick because the slip felt complicated and I couldn't quite do it gracefully.
    Over time, I naturally transitioned to the forward slip method. It sort of evolved into my goto method for cross wind landings.
     
    bflynn and Davisando like this.
  16. Davisando

    Davisando Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2019
    Messages:
    25
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    davisando
    Yes
     
  17. exncsurfer

    exncsurfer Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2014
    Messages:
    1,934
    Location:
    NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    exncsurfer
    We can't really dig into what your friend is doing since he isn't here, but as far as what you're doing, it seems like you are saying that you are using the rudder to turn while on final. If you're turning with the rudder and subsequently keeping the wings level, you are leading with the rudder and doing a weak slip of some sort. While it might not be dangerous, I think it would be considered bad technique. My .02, not a CFI. :)
     
    Davisando likes this.
  18. Davisando

    Davisando Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2019
    Messages:
    25
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    davisando
    I actually first learned the slip method, and was thought NOT to do the crab method "you are not an airliner" my CFI used to say. I evolved to the crab method because the slip felt a little forced to me with an unusual attitude for the aircraft, not saying its bad at all, I did it for the entirety of my Private instruction. But after doing instrument training, and my commercial CFI, I started crabbing and kicking the rudder on touch down. To me, it feels a little more conformable to have the wings level attitude on approach, and it actually gave me more sense of the use of rudders in general. Just my preference but not saying the slip is wrong. I think my friend does a it and was thought not to crab, like me in my early training. But he made me feel like I was doing something wrong, and it made me thing he is probably not using rudders correctly, in general.
     
  19. Davisando

    Davisando Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2019
    Messages:
    25
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    davisando
    Greatly appreciate your feedback.... and not degrading me :D in the process. LOL. Anyways, you kind of got what I was trying to say regardless of slips. I crab into the wind on approach, I position my plane (assuming crosswind) correcting for wind drift and from there I manage to stay level and on correct pad using ailerons and crabbing anlge or directional control using the rudders. Im here to learn, and any input is appreciated.
     
  20. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    13,241
    Location:
    DXO124009
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Light and Sporty Guy
    Skid if you are turning with extra rudder. Typically not a good idea on the base to final turn. Bank, baby, bank.
     
  21. Davisando

    Davisando Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2019
    Messages:
    25
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    davisando
    Definitely not skidding.... I am aware of that
     
  22. Salty

    Salty Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2016
    Messages:
    8,196
    Location:
    FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Salty
    I think by “turn” he means turning the nose to point down the runway, but I guess that’s part of the confusion.
     
  23. RyanB

    RyanB Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2010
    Messages:
    13,220
    Location:
    Chattanooga, TN
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ryan
    Might be for you in a single engine. Slipping down final in a crosswind in larger aircraft isn’t SOP.
     
    Davisando likes this.
  24. Salty

    Salty Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2016
    Messages:
    8,196
    Location:
    FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Salty
    Good thing I didn’t say anything about “down final” or “larger aircraft” then.
     
  25. bflynn

    bflynn Final Approach

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2012
    Messages:
    6,982
    Location:
    KRDU
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Brian Flynn
    Same here. I would limit my crosswinds when I could and crab all the way to touchdown, straightening out at the last second. Over time, the forward slip has made more sense and while I still can't quite handle a 15 kt crosswind well, I can get down and land on a wide enough runway and a strong enough dedication to going around.
     
  26. RyanB

    RyanB Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2010
    Messages:
    13,220
    Location:
    Chattanooga, TN
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ryan
    You said the side slip is the proper way to land in a crosswind, as if it’s universal across the board. It may work for you in your light aircraft, but that’s about it.
     
  27. JonH

    JonH Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2017
    Messages:
    476
    Location:
    San Diego
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    JonH
    https://www.faa.gov/regulations_pol...iation/airplane_handbook/media/10_afh_ch8.pdf

    There are two usual methods of accomplishing a crosswind approach and landing—the crab method and the wing-low (sideslip) method. Although the crab method may be easier for the pilot to maintain during final approach, it requires a high degree of judgment and timing in removing the crab immediately prior to touchdown. The wing-low method is recommended in most cases, although a combination of both methods may be used.
     
    TCABM likes this.
  28. bflynn

    bflynn Final Approach

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2012
    Messages:
    6,982
    Location:
    KRDU
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Brian Flynn
    the crab method is also easier to use with heavier aircraft because they have more inertia and it takes longer for the wind to move them.
     
    Davisando likes this.
  29. dmspilot

    dmspilot En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2006
    Messages:
    4,397
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Display name:
    I once flew with someone that had such lazy feet that he developed the ability to yaw the aircraft into alignment with the runway using the adverse yaw of the ailerons. Wasn't pretty.
     
    Davisando likes this.
  30. Davisando

    Davisando Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2019
    Messages:
    25
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    davisando
    I have to admit, as a lot of people I believe, was very bad with rudders in my early training, even a bit during instrument. But after doing some cross country flying and CPL training, I understood the use of it "I think" and I believe I use it better. Has helped me GREATLY with landings and I now manage to land centerline most of the times
     
  31. PaulS

    PaulS Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    May 29, 2007
    Messages:
    11,393
    Location:
    New England
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    PaulS
    I used to fly a trainer that had a 30 second limit on side slipping because it could unport the fuel pick up. So SOP for me is crab until about 25 to 50 feet then kick into a side slip. Just did it yesterday with a direct 11 G17 direct crosswind. Works great.
     
  32. chemgeek

    chemgeek Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2009
    Messages:
    2,400
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    chemgeek
    If you are not using your feet on final, it's going to be an interesting ride down final in a gusty crosswind. Why use a flick of the rudder to get you pointed in the right direction when you could saw the yoke back and forth instead? o_O

    Slips are not a dangerous maneuver. They can be essential to lose altitude or to maintain crosswind correction for landing. If a pilot is afraid of this maneuver, they should get some additional instruction. The Grumman AA-1X/AA-5X aircraft will slip like no tomorrow at 80 mph if you need to descend in a hurry.

    For crosswinds, I prefer crab until near the flare, then kick into a slip and land. One reason to delay the slip is that as you descend, the wind velocity usually decreases substantially, reducing the need to hold such a severe slip to hold line. (Plus your passengers may find the slip uncomfortable.) You might not need a pedal-to-the-floor slip 10 feet above the runway compared to what might be needed after the turn to final.
     
  33. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2007
    Messages:
    20,378
    Location:
    Catawba, NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    FlyingRon
    You should be coordinated (which may involve using rudders) until you get to final. The only bone of contention is at which point do you switch from coordinated flight to one that allows you to roll out aligned to the runway. You can't land in a crab. There's two thoughts. One is slipping down final (use the rudder to hold the nose parallel to the runway and the ailerons to stop/correct any lateral drift from the centerline). The other is the kick out method where essenially you switch to the slip at the last moment before touchdown (and since you don't have far to go you don't have to worry about drift). Note, that once you're on the ground, you still have to steer with the rudder and enter crosswind correction with the appropriate stick inputs.
     
  34. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2010
    Messages:
    19,329
    Location:
    Denton, TX
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
    I remember your first exposure to a forward slip.

    Link to Story
     
  35. Salty

    Salty Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2016
    Messages:
    8,196
    Location:
    FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Salty
    Funny, I was taught to slip all the way down final, and I've over time, transitioned to crabbing until just before the flare (Unless I'm high and need to lose some altitude anyway)
     
  36. RoscoeT

    RoscoeT Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2011
    Messages:
    1,652
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    RoscoeT
    Yeah it's been a few months since the last round of beating up the slip vs crab and kick topic. Few more weeks and it'll be time for another round of spin training vs. stall avoidance. This cycle will continue until the end of the internet.
     
    Juliet Foxtrot likes this.
  37. PaulS

    PaulS Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    May 29, 2007
    Messages:
    11,393
    Location:
    New England
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    PaulS
    Ok Roscoe, what do you want to talk about?
     
  38. Domenick

    Domenick Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2019
    Messages:
    608
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Domenick
    Which is why in a small plane, the crab and kick method may allow a landing in a slightly higher crosswind component. At the kick a small plane will react faster, and its inertia can carry it past the static slip maximum crosswind component. You might get a few more knots out of it, but it requires good timing.
     
  39. bflynn

    bflynn Final Approach

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2012
    Messages:
    6,982
    Location:
    KRDU
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Brian Flynn
    True, but that doesn't address what I was saying, so I may not have been clear enough.

    The inertia of a heavier airplane resists the sideways wind movement for a longer time. Therefore it's not as much of a timing issue to kick the heavier airplane because you have more time before you start developing a significant side drift.

    It's also true that if you kick a smaller airplane, you can get it straight and on the ground very quickly. But it requires a higher skill level because just a few seconds after you align to the runway, you'll start drifting downwind. You have to time it to get the main gear down and weight on it before that drift becomes significant. Much more difficult in smaller aircraft to do this because the timing is more critical.
     
  40. Huckster79

    Huckster79 Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2018
    Messages:
    1,698
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Huckster79
    There was mention of the dreaded base to final stall in here somewhere as reason not to cross control the plane...

    Problem is it’s kinda an apples n oranges thing. The base to final stall is from skidding not slipping...

    No stall near the ground is good but a slip is not dangerous in the same way a skid is...
     
    dmspilot likes this.