After Take Off Emergencies: 5 New Methods

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455 Bravo Uniform said:
It also depends on what GA contraption you’re flying, no? Lancair vs my canard-182? Chute vs no chute (assuming high enough to deploy)?

Also, wouldn’t you turn INTO crosswind to stay closer to the field?
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Teardrop you do 2 turns. Read again. Hook Turnback is the one you turn headwind only. One turn only. But the 777 no power Hook Turn applies. Only if you marked it on altimeter. Yes a marker i used.

If winds over 7 knots, climbed over 700 fpm? Hook Turnback if over 700 agl. 777 Hook Turnback Rule. I will post more on monday.
 
Bob Noel said:
and never to be heard from again
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Dan GrAIder. ?? LOL.. He had 2 crashes via pilot error in 2022 and 2024. On first, the C150 one, after preaching for 2 years TO NEVER TURNBACK under 1,000 agl, he did what? A 100 agl Turnback with full drag flaps at full gross on C150 at MCA. HOrrible. Of course, he couldnt complete it. He often calls a 180 a Turnback. He cant teach those EFATO maneuvers. Say to crash in front even if partial power fail only at 1,000 agl. Im dead after crashing over houses twice if i follow that rule. I did two partial power Turnbacks under 700 agle, cherokees, not just easier to do Cessnas.

There are many take off accidents partial power lately and crashing away from runway they could reach due Anti SAFE Turnback guys . See Fullerton airport 2025 crashes. One is fatal, father and daughter killed. Both could land on runway 06 easily, but anti turnback pilots told them no before. Both went around the airport, and didnt make it. They crashed both after rejecting an easy to do turnback to runw 06 after calling mayday and been cleared to land any runway while on crosswind leg of runw 24. Just nose down, flaps full. Land on ruw 06 with a bit of tailwind. Many more examples i have.
 
midwestpa24 said:
So new member comes here to post his thesis to create a new name and acronym for an old problem.
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New member here. So what? Was Bush Pilot, Bush Pilot CFI, aerobatics and 5 kinds of EFATO CFI in the 1990's for years before flying jets. Post your EFATO 5 KINDS studies and video YOU DID before 1995 to outdo me. I like challenges. Waiting for that. Dont try to put me down with BS. Debate the points i made instead of your Gossip.
 
I couldn't read the whole thing. But it seemed like a hell of a lot of stuff to have in your head to go through when the engine stops working right at 400'. I kinda like the "push forward and don't stall the airplane, dummy" method.
 
sarangan said:
I routinely ask my students when they would consider attempting a turnback. Most say around 1,000 feet AGL. Then I put them in a simulator on a 2,000-foot runway and cut the engine at exactly 1,000 feet. So far, none have made it back to the runway. When I raise the cutoff to 1,500 feet, some manage to return - but just barely, often scraping treetops and flirting with a stall. Then I switch to a 5,000-foot runway. This time, everyone makes it back with room to spare.
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Height AGL is only part of the equation. It's also based on climb angle. That is the part that is almost universally skipped (or missed) by most instructors teaching the turnback. I strongly recommend that people don't base their turnback decision solely on altitude AGL.
 

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write-stuff said:
Height AGL is only part of the equation. It's also based on climb angle. That is the part that is almost universally skipped (or missed) by most instructors teaching the turnback. I strongly recommend that people don't base their turnback decision solely on altitude AGL.
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Every person endorsed to solo at my club made the "impossible turn" back to 23G after taking off from 5G and having the CFI-G behind them pull the red knob at 800 ft AGL (of course our best angle was 17.5:1). No announcement was made. Sometime thereafter they made a straight-ahead landing in a grass field after the CFI-G pulled the knob at 200 ft.

No simulators required.
 
billsgs126 said:
Every person endorsed to solo at my club made the "impossible turn" back to 23G after taking off from 5G and having the CFI-G behind them pull the red knob at 800 ft AGL (of course our best angle was 17.5:1). No announcement was made. Sometime thereafter they made a straight-ahead landing in a grass field after the CFI-G pulled the knob at 200 ft.

No simulators required.
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Were these glider students being trained for rope breaks? If so, I'm confused about the reference to the mixture knob.
 
write-stuff said:
Were these glider students being trained for rope breaks? If so, I'm confused about the reference to the mixture knob.
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Yes, red knob is tow release in a US glider . . . 5G . . . 23G . . . CFI-G . . ..

Europeans like yellow . . ..

A funny aside: Long ago, when the Schleichers our club owns were imported, the FAA did not require that their ASIs or altimeters be replaced with ones that read in Imperial units. But they did require that the tow-release knobs be painted red.
 
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flyingcheesehead said:
No, no, no! You do NOT make your first turn "away from wind", you turn INTO the wind and let it help you back to the centerline. You'll need less of a turn if you turn into the wind, and your glide will last longer.

If you turn away from the wind, you may not be able to make it back to the centerline, period.

As for the rest, I'm now highly skeptical.
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THIS! Jay (or whomever you are) you got that incorrectly.
BC
CFIA-I-MEI
ATP
 
TURNBACKS400AGL said:
Cherokee kinds can be 180/150, Dooh! Show me your pre 1995 video doing real landings after cutting engines to 1,800 or zero. SHOW ME THAT. YOU CANT. i DID IT.
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mazel tov, so you did it.
 
ArrowFlyer86 said:
A lot of this seems like just rebranding existing ideas with new names or acronyms.

e.g.,
ROTAT == power loss (of some kind)
Vibration ROTAT == Continuous engine operation but w/partial power loss; often accompanied by engine running rough
Surge ROTAT == Intermittent total power loss
Turnback = Turning around


I'll be honest, this seems like pedantry. In english, "turning back" and "turning around" are used interchangeably. No one executing an emergency turn towards the airport is going to think "I'm going to execute a ground reference maneuver and turn around a point".


Glad that it worked out for you, but flying further away from the field with a crippled engine on the bet that you'll be able to climb higher with that crippled engine is not a winning proposition IMHO.
If the only safe terrain was behind me and my engine is dying, I'd start turning back sooner rather than later.


This is not an option at many, if not most airports, due to tower or other traffic. I cannot get wheels-up at my airport then fly at an angle to the runway on takeoff/climbout on the off chance of engine failure or a bird strike. Also, there is no need to begin an early/emergency return because of an open door.


I agree with @TCABM that the only thing that really matters here is identifying the problem of a lack of power and finding the best available option to put it down.
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LOL.. Really? Just that?. Man you think YOU caN cure cancer with a few words.. LOL and LOL..
 
TURNBACKS400AGL said:
My video i do Hook Turnback no power from 600 agl. Cherokee. 1995. Sebastian Airport 4,000 long runway. The strong winds of that day made me climb good angle to 600. Had to use flaps tricks and cut all mixture on the turn. Stopped it on 3,500 of runway. Have the video.
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On my video i land on runway 4k' long. But i clearly say to go the grass if overshooting. Pat Pending What? My video is from 1995.
 
skyking3286 said:
Sort of a meaningless post here. If you haven't been around, its much verbage over something that in reality is easy. If your rate of climb is greater than your rate of power off descending turn minus startle effect and time to set up a landing, then possibilities open. If not, straight ahead.

The OP forgets wind, startle effect, departure obstacles, confidence in making it work, slow flight experience, the actual chances of an engine starting or fixing itself . . . and reduces is down to a complex decision tree of engine start procedures or mental rules. The sort of overthinking that is done from an easy chair.

No.

Give me a grizzled old CFI who knows stick and rudder every time.

Run away from factory flight school CFIs who want clever procedures and checklist fundamentalism in an low and slow emergency. . . too many stall into the ground short of the runway. And ignore the mental lock up that happens due to startle effect.

Just memorize this and make it your religion:

Just fly the plane first and foremost.

Don't panic, don't stall. First move is to lower the nose. Keep it coordinated and gentle. Remind yourself the insurance company now owns the plane. Make a plan, scan the possibilities on the ground (you should never takeoff without a plan in mind).
Undo what you last did if you have time, grab carb heat, check full fuel tank and call it good. Then set up for a landing.

A lot of smoking holes in the ground are done by pilots who forget to keep the wind over the wings and think that a complex procedure under 1000' AGL in a hurry up low and slow turn is able to be done and still have time for a feather like landing back on a runway.


The video is an engine sag that didn't respond to full throttle, fuel vent issue. Crop duster turn, had to remind myself halfway through not to hurry with rudder. The moment my foot moved, I remembered the sentence from the book "Stick and Rudder" - I literally did. Don't hurry a turn with rudder, ever. Pulled the foot back, not a great landing, but considering, good enough. The intitial sag was hard to hear as I was going from tail down to running on the mains. On climbout, the engine simply refused to make full power.

The 2600 foot runway I fly out of now has a 45 seconds after throttle opens emergency window - if you lose an engine or have an issue going north, you aren't going to have very many choices so you have to know that. Rather than altitude, I use time and distance.
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You did a power on Hook Turnback to the right. NOT A TURNAROUND. You didnt"Turnaround" Anything. I bet you were slipping a bit if didnt use rudder at all like you said. But you made it. Aeronkas are 60 mph turns so it didnt go to side too much. No need to do 2 turns for spacing the 2nd turn like a Teardrop Turnback needs. Good you made it.. Jay Vega
 
Albany Tom said:
I couldn't read the whole thing. But it seemed like a hell of a lot of stuff to have in your head to go through when the engine stops working right at 400'. I kinda like the "push forward and don't stall the airplane, dummy" method.
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Too much knowledge for you? Read it a few times. Been lazy and negative will get you in trouble in Aviation. Or your Girlfriend.. LOL..
 
write-stuff said:
Height AGL is only part of the equation. It's also based on climb angle. That is the part that is almost universally skipped (or missed) by most instructors teaching the turnback. I strongly recommend that people don't base their turnback decision solely on altitude AGL.
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If most of your students dont complete a Turnback from 1,000 agl, then you are taking about a no power one. Probably they didnt climb at 700 agl, or turned towards the wind, not to it. Or not 45 degr. banks. No power turnbacks you use The 777 No power Turnback Rule i posted after the 414 Partial Power or ROTAT kind.
If you got the 777, by 700 agl, then is nose down to Vglide Speed, Quick 45 bank towards any crosswind, never with the wind. Dont look over your shoulder until do over 90 degrees of the turn (Tendency to pull up controls at same time). Turn to nearest runway or the opposite if only one. Taxiways or grass can do too. I too high pop flaps and forward slip. or even an S turn can do too. Cut mixture if too high too.
After landing, if about to overshoot, go to the grass or sides. Cut gas and master as you roll. I have more tricks for overshooting. That JeJu Airlines that overshot the runway in Korea in May should have go to the dirt sides instead of keep going overshooting to that dirt and concrete wall. Capt kept going Straight Ahead only, there is not left or right. Like Dan Gryder say.. LOL..
 
ArrowFlyer86 said:
I'll be honest, this seems like pedantry. In english, "turning back" and "turning around" are used interchangeably. No one executing an emergency turn towards the airport is going to think "I'm going to execute a ground reference maneuver and turn around a point".
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That is a wrong. Common communication error i have seen in USA, and in aviation too. I speak 3 languages. Too many or most pilots call a turnaround the same as A Turnback Turn. They are dam Confused. There are 2 different kind of turns. See other post about that i did. Geee ! Im too logical maybe?. But real Pilots cant say one thing and mean another anyway. That is a BS Pilot.
 
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ateamer said:
Guaranteed it wasn’t written by a pilot. On the slight chance that it was, it’s not from a pilot who’s had an actual failure in a single engine at low altitude.
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Want to bet on that ? "Guaranteed" you posted above. i will win over you instead. Email me. Guaranteed guy.. LOL.. Lets go.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
No, no, no! You do NOT make your first turn "away from wind", you turn INTO the wind and let it help you back to the centerline. You'll need less of a turn if you turn into the wind, and your glide will last longer.

If you turn away from the wind, you may not be able to make it back to the centerline, period.

As for the rest, I'm now highly skeptical.
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My post was about Teardrop Turnbacks. Very detailed and clear. You are confusing the Teardrop with the Hook Turnback. Different kind of Turnback. Crop Dusters, Bush Pilots know the difference.
 
murphey said:
The insurance company owns the airplane. I merely pay for everything and have fun with it. Engine out in the air? Putting it down in the most safe location where everyone is alive and well. At which time the insurance company gets physical possession and I go back to sailing. I have zero interest in attempting to return to the runway.
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Try that at Linden Airport with oil tanks all over the end of runway 09, or thousands more in USA with houses and buildings all over. Show your crash, for real. Then i will believe you. Now dont.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
On my flight reviews I focus on emergencies. Last one the CFI had me simulate a take off loss of power and attempt at a return to the field. We did it over the airport at 2000 AGL, simulated the takeoff roll and departure while we were overflying the runway and pulled power at different points. Out of habit I would turn left, but we had a right crosswind. Made quite a beneficial difference turning into the wind. It’s a pretty good thing to try. I made it work in my contraption.
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Good pilots are not cowards to practice emergencies. You are not one of those many cowards here twisting what i post to hide their Emergency Turns Fobias they have.
 
Daleandee said:
That seems to be about where a turnback would be successful but there are caveats to consider. The runway length, wind direction, partial power, or no power are but a few of them. In my aircraft at 1,000' I'm near or turning onto the downwind leg of the pattern depending on my route of departure. 1,000' departing straight out is another kettle of fish ...
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You are talking here about no power Turnbacks. My post is about partial power ones that happen 4 times more often. 2 Different kind of turnbacks that all pilots should know the difference between them.
 
TURNBACKS400AGL said:
You are talking here about no power Turnbacks. My post is about partial power ones that happen 4 times more often. 2 Different kind of turnbacks that all pilots should know the difference between them.
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Once the engine shows signs of trouble it is not to be trusted. Treat it as such ...
 
TURNBACKS400AGL said:
Good pilots are not cowards to practice emergencies. You are not one of those many cowards here twisting what i post to hide their Emergency Turns Fobias they have.
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I’m curious what risks you have identified in applying your techniques.
 
TURNBACKS400AGL said:
Try that at Linden Airport with oil tanks all over the end of runway 09, or thousands more in USA with houses and buildings all over. Show your crash, for real. Then i will believe you. Now dont.
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You and I do not fly in the same locations. You may fly in highly congested areas. Places I fly, the only living creatures for 100 miles may be cattle. Or rabbits. On the other hand, please explain your theory as applied to Telluride KTEX or Aspen KASE airports in Colorado.

As to your comment "show your crash for real" - I'm completely baffled by the intent.
 
TURNBACKS400AGL said:
Too much knowledge for you? Read it a few times. Been lazy and negative will get you in trouble in Aviation. Or your Girlfriend.. LOL..
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Why would I read anything multiple times, that I stopped midway through the first time? (Rhetorical question)

Pretty much nobody on this forum is lazy. I didn't stop reading because I was lazy, I stopped because my time is valuable.

It probably won't sink in, but if you do have some idea of a better plan for the improbable turn, then describe it in a concise way. Put it into no more than 5 lines, max 20-25 words per line, don't use any acronyms or mnemonics, and call it a day.

Otherwise it's just a bunch of rambly stuff. Similar to the old guy at the bar who has a never ending bunch of stories to tell, none of which are about anything. Then they ask you to buy them a beer. I'm not looking to buy anyone a beer here, or listen to stories that don't end.
 
write-stuff said:
Oh yes, but the "impossible turn" (mis)label still exists.
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Partial power i did one turnback from 300 agl, another from a bit over 400 agl. I only promote the 414 at 400 agl even when one of my former student at 72 hours TT only, with 3 on board, on old C172 did a short 414 from, ready for this? A bit over 250 agl, over a swamp and tanks holding oil. Linden KLDG airport rnw 9. No damages. He lost a cylinder on the 145 hp engine. Had to use full flaps and slight slip to land tailwind. Airplane is still his 32 years later.
 
TURNBACKS400AGL said:
On my video i land on runway 4k' long. But i clearly say to go the grass if overshooting. Pat Pending What? My video is from 1995.
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So, where's the video? Can we see it? I'm not so much of a skeptic, I've practiced turnbacks, and I'll attempt them in some aircraft, but not in others. No way you're making the field in a Cardinal on a hot day in Midland, TX, but a Super Cub on a 2000' strip is pretty likely to work.
 
TURNBACKS400AGL said:
Partial power i did one turnback from 300 agl, another from a bit over 400 agl. I only promote the 414 at 400 agl even when one of my former student at 72 hours TT only, with 3 on board, on old C172 did a short 414 from, ready for this? A bit over 250 agl, over a swamp and tanks holding oil. Linden KLDG airport rnw 9. No damages. He lost a cylinder on the 145 hp engine. Had to use full flaps and slight slip to land tailwind. Airplane is still his 32 years later.
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Where's the video?
 
So I had this engine failure shortly after takeoff. Well it wasn't a complete engine failure, but around the time I reached pattern altitude, the manifold pressure dropped to like 21". I believe that it was caused by the butterfly valve in the throttle body partially closing, which was caused by the cable connected to it moving, which was caused by a lever inside the cockpit being moved. I did this super duper move that I call a normal turn to downwind, and a second turn to base and a third turn to final and landed on the runway I had just taken off from. Sorry no video available.
 
Lindberg said:
Post the video or go away.
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My video is 40 minutes long. It is on Emergency LowManeuvering Channel of you tube and some students channels too. Un-edited since 1995. No BS. Here is it. Read the post too. We are Puerto Rican/American citizens, so sorry for the accent. I learned English language after 35 y o when i moved to USA as pilot abroad.
 
dcat127 said:
So I had this engine failure shortly after takeoff. Well it wasn't a complete engine failure, but around the time I reached pattern altitude, the manifold pressure dropped to like 21". I believe that it was caused by the butterfly valve in the throttle body partially closing, which was caused by the cable connected to it moving, which was caused by a lever inside the cockpit being moved. I did this super duper move that I call a normal turn to downwind, and a second turn to base and a third turn to final and landed on the runway I had just taken off from. Sorry no video available.
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That's interesting. Something must be up with aviation-grade control cables connected to knobs. Because, on many takeoffs, I have experienced a total power failure concurrent with the cable that terminates in a red knob moving rearward and thus releasing the towline attachment hook. Fortunately, years ago, my CFI-G acclimated me to this. And I either do as you do, make a landing straight ahead, make a turn back, or sometimes I just find a convenient updraft and continue my flight.

I haven't made a video. But there are many on-line from a poster named 'Launch'.
 
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billsgs126 said:
AI that uses spell-wreck!
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English is my third language after Spanish, Spanglish and some Portughese i know too. Im Puerto Rican/American/Spain heritage. My video is 40 minutes long. It is in Emergency LowManeuvering Channel of you tube and some students channels too. Un-edited since 1995. No BS. Here is it. Read the post too. We are Puerto Rican/American citizens, so sorry for the accent. I learned English language after 35 y o when i moved to USA after pilot abroad.
 
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