ADS-B Mandate thoughts (compliance, effect on resale, etc)

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by SaltH2OHokie, Nov 14, 2017.

  1. SaltH2OHokie

    SaltH2OHokie Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Pondering future hypothetical purchases and casually and informally surveying folks at and around the two local airfields I have any time at it, has gotten me to thinking. It seems that there are a few distinct groups of thought/people when it comes to ADS-B mandate as it relates to small GA aircraft:

    -Already done it as part of planned/wanted/"because I can" avionics upgrades/updates. $$ not an issue, fly regularly types.

    -Will do it, begrudgingly, likely near last minute or even a month or two after it's due...fingers crossed some $500 solution hits the market. $$ IS an issue, but fly regularly, or at least regularly enough that they will comply versus sell the plane.

    - Won't do it, will just stay out of airspace requiring it/thumb nose at the man/etc.

    - Won't do it. Will sell the plane, or just let it [continue to] rot. There are economic arguments for this one for sure...the planes that are slowly becoming a permanent part of the ramp aren't likely to suddenly get a wash, an oil change and fresh fuel so they can line up at the local avionics guy in late 2019 to spend more than they've spent on the plane in the previous few years combined. Likewise the older guy who owns (and has owned for a while) an increasingly seldom flown, VFR only C150 isn't likely to decide that a new technology he personally doesn't care about is worth a third of his plane's current value. I surmise he sells.

    I ponder it all in the context of the effect on the values of the low-end of the GA fleet. Will 2020 be the year to buy a Cherokee as long as you're willing to install ADS-B out (or forgo it)? 2021? Will there suddenly be two price classes dividing otherwise "identical" planes? Will ADS-B be an avionics upgrade that actually gets you your money back at resale (for a few years anyway)? Will there be a flood of planes on the market or is it just as likely that the folks that aren't inclined to comply, also aren't necessarily inclined to sell just because the plane can't get into some airspace legally.

    Just pondering.
     
  2. somorris

    somorris Pattern Altitude

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    I believe whether or not ADS-B is installed will affect resale value. There are many benefits besides allowing the aircraft to fly in controlled airspace. If you want to buy, might as well go ahead and take the plunge now.
     
  3. LT4247

    LT4247 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Plan to sit this one out! Maybe 2021 or later. Just depends,,,
     
  4. Morgan3820

    Morgan3820 Cleared for Takeoff

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    Will do it, begrudgingly, likely near last minute or even a month or two after it's due...fingers crossed some $500 solution hits the market. $$ IS an issue, but fly regularly, or at least regularly enough that they will comply versus sell the plane. I rarely fly in required airspace. Unless my Daughter goes to NC State and I have to pick her up at RDU. Then cost is no object.
     
  5. Todd82

    Todd82 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I live just outside CVG Mode C veil and will frequently be flying to DAY. I'll need to get it by the deadline once I buy a plane and probably will ASAP just budgeting that into my purchase budget. Looking at equipped vs non equipped planes on the market though, I think I'll buy non equipped and get it done. At least in the sub $40k Cherokee market that I'm looking at.
     
  6. George Mohr

    George Mohr Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I did it this year, because I wanted the benefits of in+out. Probably increased my planes value by about half the project cost, but that's a guess.
     
  7. frfly172

    frfly172 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I did it ,evidently to soon. Prices are going down.
     
  8. 455 Bravo Uniform

    455 Bravo Uniform Pattern Altitude

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    Is there another category of clueless pilot/owner who just does not keep up with regulation and tech and thus does not know about ADSB requirements?
     
  9. skiermike

    skiermike Pre-Flight

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    I’ve wondered about this question as well (how ADSB requirements will affect the resale market). Here’s my take: I think that prices at the lower end of the market will go down slightly (that’s for the planes, not the ADSB units), due to some people selling that might have otherwise kept their plane. That said, I don’t think there’s going to be much of a market difference for “equipped” planes vs “unequipped” planes, or if there is, it will be small, primarily because the market typically values upgrades at half of actual cost or less, and the cost of upgrade - while a real ****er, no doubt - isn’t that large in the context of a plane purchase anyway.
     
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  10. Sundancer

    Sundancer Pattern Altitude

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    I'd use it as a plus/minus when buying, as a consideration in my offer. The actual ADS-B value added for most GA operations is pretty low; the ROI isn't supported by the facts, but it's a convenience for the FAA that you have to pay to make use of an airplane for most travel. . .think of it as a tax to support some Fed's performance reviews.
     
  11. Cykoguy

    Cykoguy Pre-takeoff checklist

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    100% it affects resale value. I am not taking it into account when browsing for the heck of it of kind of a "knock $5k-10k off" with aircraft that do not have it installed yet. Would I absolutely need it? No. Would it be nice to just have done so I can go where I want? Yes.
     
  12. UngaWunga

    UngaWunga Cleared for Takeoff

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    Ok.... It does have some benefit to me. I see traffic on a screen that I can't see otherwise. I keep my eyes outside, but unless planes get close or are flying at night, they are damned hard to see. I avoided two close calls last weekend using it. There was a enough planes in the air in NY and PA last weekend the NYC controllers were calling it a VFR free for all. Few were getting FF, fewer were on the channel. Some weren't at the normal VFR altitudes either.

    I don't like it being as expensive as it was, but am glad I have it now. And I do hope it'll increase the value of my plane a little it.
     
  13. FlySince9

    FlySince9 En-Route

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    my club had it installed as part of an upgrade we did 2 years ago when we added a gtn750. I'm sold on the technology, for sure... Yea sometimes it gets frustrating when its telling you there is an airplane nearby but regardless of how much you strain your eyes you can't see it. and scary when you see one creeping up your tail feathers . But a couple of weeks ago I had a target that caused a "TRAFFIC ALERT"... I couldn't see him until I lifted my wing a bit (Cessna) and there he was, for sure about 1/4 mile out and a little high converging on me.
     
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  14. bnt83

    bnt83 Final Approach

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    I've really enjoyed having it, the whole shebang in two airplanes. Fortunately I never spent a dime on portable ADS-B so that made swallowing the cost of the GTX345 a little easier.

    GTN650 + GTX-345 in one

    GTN650 + GTX327 + GDL88 in the other.
     
  15. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Iffen I lived out in yea olde sticks, then I wouldn't bother. But since I'm at DXO124008.6 and the nearest airport outside the 30nm ring of death is about an hour's drive - uavionix here I come.

    And, I were I buying a new ride, I would pay more with ADS-B out already installed since it would save me the hassle. But, I wouldn't expect to recover the full cost of the hardware were I to sell.
     
  16. MIFlyer

    MIFlyer Line Up and Wait

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    Same here. As I’m looking, I add 7k to the cost of a plane without a 345. As a buyer, I don’t really value the various “out”solutions, but do value in+out.

    For me a 345 and some kind of waas gps are either already installed, or I’m planning for their cost


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
  17. bradg33

    bradg33 Cleared for Takeoff

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    I think come Oshkosh 2018, we're going to see $1000 ADS-B retrofit solutions with built-in WAAS GPS receivers. Already down to under $2k for Garmin's GDL-82.
     
  18. N3368K

    N3368K Line Up and Wait

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    I will do it begrudgingly because I'm based within the KMEM Class B veil. I will likely buy sometime in late 2018 and install sometime in 2019. Since this is for my Exp-AB RV-4, I am leaning towards the uAvionix echoUAT or Levil Beacon, though Levil is $400 more, but includes a panel display where the echo is only through Wi-Fi. I'd seriously consider the Echo SkyBeacon for wingtip mount, but currently, there is no provision for strobe, only nav light. Also, being a low sitting low wing airplane, I'm not sure I want the broken antenna exposure it brings. Good thing is, the installation won't cost anything extra as I can install it myself.

    My brother is in the same boat with a Pitts. We will likely buy same units and install them at the same time sometime in 2019.

    Any other airplanes I buy later, will either already be equipped or won't need it. We both have J-3 Cubs with no electrical so at least we don't have to equip those too. I've considered buying a Pitts and if I do, I'll likely look for one without a generator/alternator. Of course there is no good reason to buy one since I have one available to fly. :D
     
  19. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Depends, doubt it would effect what someone will let a PA18 go for it the like to for, might help a little buying a c150

    Personally I'm going to wait till 2021, probably buy a sweet used unit for very little from a chasing the jones type, or I might just ES my 330. Ether way I'm not that concerned.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2017
  20. SoCal RV Flyer

    SoCal RV Flyer Pattern Altitude

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    I've got ADS-B in via a Ping receiver plugged into my iFly 740. The traffic is great, but I do find myself looking more than I should for traffic on the screen that is 1500' below me that's not a factor. For "out," currently eyeing the Uavionix Echo paired with the standalone certified GPS (so I can use my existing GTX 327 transponder) but like others I want to see what the market brings in 2018. Maybe the extra time will allow updates/debugging of the Echo, or a lower price. Will install at annual in Feb. of 2019.

    Pretty much a must-have around the L.A. basin!
     
  21. Sundancer

    Sundancer Pattern Altitude

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    That's cool, if you see the value, that's what matters; for me, with the likely hood of a GA mid-air in cruise being so very low (almost non-existent some years), I'm thinkng the close calls you didn't see wouldn't have amounted to anything anyway. Surely not worth $8 billion bucks frpom the FAA (or $5-10K from us). I imagine the scope does look pretty crowded to a controller, since the returns aren't exactly to "scale"; but the sky is really big, and my airplane is really small, and your altimeter and mine are gonna differ, and we just don;t merge that often in cruise. Nice day on a weekend, in the pattern, where we DO tend to merge, maybe slightly more value.

    But that's just me, and I know a lot of people like it - then again, I don't use FF when VFR, either. But on topic, I think, as someone else posted, I would either want it installed in a plane I was buying, or have the price knocked-down enough to cover a good chunk of it.
     
  22. tawood

    tawood Pattern Altitude

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    This.

    No one ever gets their full money out of an install or upgrade when they sell, no matter if it is updated radios, or even an overhaul. Seems to me the best thing to do for a buyer would wait until you find a bird with ADSB already installed, and you'll get a discount.

    Since I'm already an owner (and without ADSB out), I'm with James, and I plan to wait a looooonnnggg time before I update. I fly often, but I'm fortunate to do 90% of my flying where ADSB isn't necessary in 2020. Come 2020, I'll just avoid the 10% for a few years.
     
  23. Lindberg

    Lindberg Pattern Altitude

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    There may be another category, pilots who don't know or don't care.

    I looked at a plane for sale, hangared at an air park within a mode c veil. It had no transponder. From the logs, it has not flown a lot since it moved there, but had flown some, and got there some how.
     
  24. brien23

    brien23 Cleared for Takeoff

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    I'm with you, I hated when transponder mode C altitude squealer was required now ADSB tells everything, that's great just great.
     
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  25. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Did it have an engine driven electrical system?
     
  26. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    Those who don't put in ADS-B are limiting their market and reducing their resale value. Maybe not by the full cost of the equipment, but the limited market is a significant factor.

    It's like selling a plane with timed out engines vs. one with new engines. You'll sell quicker and for more money with new engines. Most people just outright don't want to buy a plane with timed out engines on it.
     
  27. charheep

    charheep Line Up and Wait

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    I need to have some radio work, and called to make an appointment. They said the repair side was pretty open and could take me most any time. But the installation side was booked until late Feb he said. I wonder if that will just get worse as we get closer to the cutoff. I am under the ORD veil, so YMMV.
     
  28. SoCal RV Flyer

    SoCal RV Flyer Pattern Altitude

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    Guaranteed. Book early!!!
     
  29. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    It's really pretty darn easy. Imagine how you would be impacted if you were selling a plane now with no transponder. That's roughly the issue with no ADSB out.

    I can tell you there was much crying back 30+ years ago when just about everybody had to go put mode C in their aircraft. Prior to that, as long as you weren't going into one of the dozen busiest class B (well TCA back then) you didn't need one.
     
  30. Lindberg

    Lindberg Pattern Altitude

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    Cessna 140. Had full electrical system.