ADS-B Effects

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m38_a1

Filing Flight Plan
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Ryan
My name is Ryan.

I’m a Commercial pilot and CFI/II with rotorcraft/instrument ratings. I’m also a UH-60 Instructor Pilot and Instrument Flight Examiner for the Army National Guard.

Currently I’m conducting a research project for completion of Bachelor’s degree in Aeronautical Science with Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University.

I chose to write about the effects of the ADS-B mandatory implementation by the FAA. Main focus of this survey is to get a feel from the General Aviation (GA) community and how the implementation will effect GA users.

Most other users out in the airspace (commercial, etc.) will be able to pass along costs of this implementation to their clients, however individuals and small organizations not flying for hire will have significant upgrade fees just to operate in the National Airspace System (NAS).

If you could please take the time to fill out several multiple choice questions in regard to how the FAA ADS-B Out mandate will effect you. If you are unsure of the mandate or ADS-B, additional information and links will be available on corresponding questions later in the survey. Please follow the link below.

Thank you for your time,

-Ryan

https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/5NX3XTN
 
m38_a1 said:
My name is Ryan.

I’m a Commercial pilot and CFI/II with rotorcraft/instrument ratings. I’m also a UH-60 Instructor Pilot and Instrument Flight Examiner for the Army National Guard.

Currently I’m conducting a research project for completion of Bachelor’s degree in Aeronautical Science with Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University.

I chose to write about the effects of the ADS-B mandatory implementation by the FAA. Main focus of this survey is to get a feel from the General Aviation (GA) community and how the implementation will effect GA users.

Most other users out in the airspace (commercial, etc.) will be able to pass along costs of this implementation to their clients, however individuals and small organizations not flying for hire will have significant upgrade fees just to operate in the National Airspace System (NAS).

If you could please take the time to fill out several multiple choice questions in regard to how the FAA ADS-B Out mandate will effect you. If you are unsure of the mandate or ADS-B, additional information and links will be available on corresponding questions later in the survey. Please follow the link below.

Thank you for your time,

-Ryan

https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/5NX3XTN
Click to expand...

First post.....

Welcome to POA..:cheers:

As for ADS-B..

It is nothing more then a way for the guv to track all flights and send them a user fee bill...

Seeing how you posted you are a government employee and those funds will help fund your paycheck, I would say your question is a total conflict of interest.. IMHO..
 
"
Basically all aircraft (except military) operating in airspace currently requring a 4096 transponder with mode C will require ADS-B Out by Jan 1st, 2020. (Class A,B,C, above C, and airspace above 10,000 MSL above 2,500 AGL)."

Not correct.

You will be required to throw away a pile of money on ADS-B out to operate inside the 30mn ring - even if you stay out of the sacred class B.
 
Cost for converting experimental aircraft are no where near the $7,000 mark quoted in the survey, and the costs will come down as more and more companies come up with better "mousetraps".
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
"
Basically all aircraft (except military) operating in airspace currently requring a 4096 transponder with mode C will require ADS-B Out by Jan 1st, 2020. (Class A,B,C, above C, and airspace above 10,000 MSL above 2,500 AGL)."

Not correct.

You will be required to throw away a pile of money on ADS-B out to operate inside the 30mn ring - even if you stay out of the sacred class B.
Click to expand...
"Basically" seems to cover that unless I'm missing something, no?
 
Welcome Ryan.

That said, it would be really great if you'd stay and interact with the discussion rather than post a link to a survey. Then distill what you've learned into your paper. Surveys tend to frustrate users and distort reality. For that reason, I don't do them. And I know I'm not the only one.
 
Bill Watson said:
"Basically" seems to cover that unless I'm missing something, no?
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One question in the survey is on the order of "do you fly in A,B,or C" - my answer would be no. But, if the question was "do you fly where you will need ADS-B" then my answer is yes - all the time.

If I only needed ADS-B out to fly IN class B - that would be great. Even I wouldn't have anything to complain about. But, no. I have to flush away the money because I live UNDER class B even though I have never in my life flown my own airplane inside the B and wouldn't miss being locked out of A and C.

So, you could argue about whether you are missing something or not, but come 2020 I will be missing several thousand dollars in spite of the fact that I have no need to fly in class A, B, or C.
 
Thank you all for your input. I will work on wording in the survey. I want to get the best results. I'll keep popping back in and please let me know if you think I should include anything else in my research. I will continue to update the forum on my findings. My paper is due in about a month, so I will be continually be pushing for a final product until then. Thanks all for your help.

-Ryan
 
N801BH said:
First post.....

Welcome to POA..:cheers:

As for ADS-B..

It is nothing more then a way for the guv to track all flights and send them a user fee bill...

Seeing how you posted you are a government employee and those funds will help fund your paycheck, I would say your question is a total conflict of interest.. IMHO..
Click to expand...
Ben,

I'm a service member, not an employee and this project has nothing to do with my military status. Seeing how this mandate is exempt to military aircraft and even if it wasn't the costs would in no way interfere with me, my outlook or the mandate's effect on general aviation users, I can't see how "my question is a total conflict of interest." Thank you for your input.

-Ryan
 
Geico266 said:
Cost for converting experimental aircraft are no where near the $7,000 mark quoted in the survey, and the costs will come down as more and more companies come up with better "mousetraps".
Click to expand...

Geico,

That is good to know, could you please provide me with some references that I could use in my paper. Those figures found where from AOPA, duncan aviation and various other avionics companies. Thanks,

-Ryan
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
"
Basically all aircraft (except military) operating in airspace currently requring a 4096 transponder with mode C will require ADS-B Out by Jan 1st, 2020. (Class A,B,C, above C, and airspace above 10,000 MSL above 2,500 AGL)."

Not correct.

You will be required to throw away a pile of money on ADS-B out to operate inside the 30mn ring - even if you stay out of the sacred class B.
Click to expand...

Sorry If I didn't have it worded as clearly. However The 30NM veil is airspace that currently requires a 4096 transponder with mode C, which was outlined in the question. I will revamp the question to (Class A,B, 30NM of class B,C, above C, and airspace above 10,000 MSL above 2,500 AGL).

Thanks,
-Ryan
 
Old Geek said:
Welcome Ryan.

That said, it would be really great if you'd stay and interact with the discussion rather than post a link to a survey. Then distill what you've learned into your paper. Surveys tend to frustrate users and distort reality. For that reason, I don't do them. And I know I'm not the only one.
Click to expand...

I understand, no worries. However I have to use this method for my project.

Thanks,

Ryan
 
m38_a1 said:
Ben,

I'm a service member, not an employee and this project has nothing to do with my military status. Seeing how this mandate is exempt to military aircraft and even if it wasn't the costs would in no way interfere with me, my outlook or the mandate's effect on general aviation users, I can't see how "my question is a total conflict of interest." Thank you for your input.

-Ryan
Click to expand...


Kool.. a UH-60 Instructor Pilot and Instrument Flight Examiner for the Army National Guard.

and work for free.... Thanks for donating all your time to help this country....
 
Ryan,welcome ,took your survey,good luck with it.
 
Thank you for your service, Ryan. Glad to help with your project :)
 
Took survey. Around 2020, I'll prolly be removing my 4096 txp with mode C and just go primary return.
 
docmirror said:
Took survey. Around 2020, I'll prolly be removing my 4096 txp with mode C and just go primary return.
Click to expand...

Me too....

And the UH-60 drivers will be chasing us down....

In that case,, the OP has job security..;)....:D.
 
docmirror said:
Took survey. Around 2020, I'll prolly be removing my 4096 txp with mode C and just go primary return.
Click to expand...
and I'll probably sell the cherokee and get a small sailboat.
 
N801BH said:
Me too....

And the UH-60 drivers will be chasing us down....

In that case,, the OP has job security..;)....:D.
Click to expand...

Hmmm, why would a UH-60 be chasing a VFR primary target out in non-ADS-B country? Unless you think I meant I would be going into ADS-B country without the req equip?
 
docmirror said:
Hmmm, why would a UH-60 be chasing a VFR primary target out in non-ADS-B country? Unless you think I meant I would be going into ADS-B country without the req equip?
Click to expand...

To collect the guvs upcoming user fees..... silly wabbit...;)....:D..
 
Overall cost doesn't justify any benefit yet published. Period. Full stop.
 
N801BH said:
To collect the guvs upcoming user fees..... silly wabbit...;)....:D..
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Oh, yes - of course! Spend $1200/hour to collect a ~$30 fee for not using the ATC services as I go from private field, to private field. Gah - why didn't I think of that? :lol:
 
docmirror said:
Took survey. Around 2020, I'll prolly be removing my 4096 txp with mode C and just go primary return.
Click to expand...

I didn't take the survey. I already sold my cherokee. I didn't have a GPS in it (no operational advantage or need). The cost of putting the flawed gold-plated ADS-B in my airplane was cost-prohibitive.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
One question in the survey is on the order of "do you fly in A,B,or C" - my answer would be no. But, if the question was "do you fly where you will need ADS-B" then my answer is yes - all the time.

If I only needed ADS-B out to fly IN class B - that would be great. Even I wouldn't have anything to complain about. But, no. I have to flush away the money because I live UNDER class B even though I have never in my life flown my own airplane inside the B and wouldn't miss being locked out of A and C.

So, you could argue about whether you are missing something or not, but come 2020 I will be missing several thousand dollars in spite of the fact that I have no need to fly in class A, B, or C.
Click to expand...
I hadn't read the survey but I see your point. Student must add, "or within 30nm of class C"
 
Why do I have to have an WAAS IFR capable gps to provide ADSB out data?
Aircraft is Day VFR only. Any aviation grade gps should be acceptable for ADSB.

Need to put a $7AMU system into a $30K aircraft. Current $1500 Mode C needs to be replaced by Mode S system and need to install WAAS GPS blind reciever to provide data out.

Just to tow gliders inside the Mode C Veil, and the gliders are not required to have anything.
 
BillTIZ said:
Why do I have to have an WAAS IFR capable gps to provide ADSB out data?
Aircraft is Day VFR only. Any aviation grade gps should be acceptable for ADSB.

Need to put a $7AMU system into a $30K aircraft. Current $1500 Mode C needs to be replaced by Mode S system and need to install WAAS GPS blind reciever to provide data out.

Just to tow gliders inside the Mode C Veil, and the gliders are not required to have anything.
Click to expand...


It's the guv.. it doesn't have to make sense...:no:.....:mad2:
 
I guess most of you weren't pilots or maybe even around when the mandate came out for GA aircraft to get 4096 Transponders. The panic and drama back then was much like it is now. As well as the astronomical prices quoted for what the new-fangled equipment would cost. Amazingly and falling right in line with general economic principles as the reckoning day neared the prices for the new boxes began FALLING. Just like it will for this equipment too.

And just like back then if you didn't like it you can always get a nice J-3 or Champ and do something most have forgotten - stick and rudder flying for the sake of flying. So quit your whining ! I'm tired of hearing how the worlds gonna end ! Give it a rest, you guys sound like a bunch of 15 year old girls !
 
Art VanDelay said:
I guess most of you weren't pilots or maybe even around when the mandate came out for GA aircraft to get 4096 Transponders. The panic and drama back then was much like it is now. As well as the astronomical prices quoted for what the new-fangled equipment would cost. Amazingly and falling right in line with general economic principles as the reckoning day neared the prices for the new boxes began FALLING. Just like it will for this equipment too.

And just like back then if you didn't like it you can always get a nice J-3 or Champ and do something most have forgotten - stick and rudder flying for the sake of flying. So quit your whining ! I'm tired of hearing how the worlds gonna end ! Give it a rest, you guys sound like a bunch of 15 year old girls !
Click to expand...


The difference is (1) the transponder technology wasn't gold-plated, (2) the cost of installing didn't approach 50% of the aircraft value, (3) the system architecture wasn't fatally flawed (dual datalinks, requiring use of FAA ground infrastructure, and failing to provide message validation is dumber than dirt)

But other than that, sure it's exactly the same. :goofy::goofy::goofy::goofy:
 
BTIZ,

You bring up a good point.
I included WAAS because of two things:

According to the FAA, "Numerous commenters, including the DOD, contended that the proposal required WAAS (or implied that the positioning service used by the aircraft have an availability equivalent to WAAS.) As stated in the NPRM, operators may equip with any position source. Although WAAS is not required, at this time it is the only positioning service that provides the equivalent availability to radar (99.9 percent availability). The FAA expects that future position sources such as GNSS using the L5 GPS signal, GPS using Galileo signals, and GPS tightly integrated with inertial navigation systems will also provide 99.9 percent availability. Operators who equip with other position sources, such as non-augmented GPS, may experience outages that limit their access to the airspace defined in this rule." This can be found on page 30172 of http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2010-05-28/pdf/2010-12645.pdf

Now the reference I sited was a AOPA article that included it in the price. You are correct in that currently it is no needed, I just want to paint a worst case situation to give people an idea of what this is going to cost people that aren't made of money and don't fly for hire. It seems the current administration is trying to make aviation for the elite, with $100 airspace charges and other expenses. There is a lot of good in the NextGen system, however part of my research is to show how mandating this equipment will effect people's lives.

Thank you for your input, I really appreciate it,

-Ryan
 
m38_a1 said:
BTIZ,

You bring up a good point.
I included WAAS because of two things:

According to the FAA, "Numerous commenters, including the DOD, contended that the proposal required WAAS (or implied that the positioning service used by the aircraft have an availability equivalent to WAAS.) As stated in the NPRM, operators may equip with any position source. Although WAAS is not required, at this time it is the only positioning service that provides the equivalent availability to radar (99.9 percent availability). The FAA expects that future position sources such as GNSS using the L5 GPS signal, GPS using Galileo signals, and GPS tightly integrated with inertial navigation systems will also provide 99.9 percent availability. Operators who equip with other position sources, such as non-augmented GPS, may experience outages that limit their access to the airspace defined in this rule." This can be found on page 30172 of http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2010-05-28/pdf/2010-12645.pdf

Now the reference I sited was a AOPA article that included it in the price. You are correct in that currently it is no needed, I just want to paint a worst case situation to give people an idea of what this is going to cost people that aren't made of money and don't fly for hire. It seems the current administration is trying to make aviation for the elite, with $100 airspace charges and other expenses. There is a lot of good in the NextGen system, however part of my research is to show how mandating this equipment will effect people's lives.

Thank you for your input, I really appreciate it,

-Ryan
Click to expand...

Hi Ryan...

This is where your survey falls apart.... Earlier you said..

"Ben,

I'm a service member, not an employee and this project has nothing to do with my military status. Seeing how this mandate is exempt to military aircraft and even if it wasn't the costs would in no way interfere with me, my outlook or the mandate's effect on general aviation users, I can't see how "my question is a total conflict of interest." Thank you for your input."

-Ryan

And now you disclose that the DOD was involved in the comments..

According to the FAA, "Numerous commenters, including the DOD, contended that the proposal required WAAS (or implied that the positioning service used by the aircraft have an availability equivalent to WAAS.)


Which begs the question... If " Seeing how this mandate is exempt to military aircraft "

Why would the DOD even want to comment ? If it does NOT effect them ?:dunno::dunno:...:confused:
 
N801BH said:
Which begs the question... If " Seeing how this mandate is exempt to military aircraft "

Why would the DOD even want to comment ? If it does NOT effect them ?:dunno::dunno:...:confused:
Click to expand...

It's not that the FAA can require specific equipment on US military aircraft. However, the DOD wants to be work within the ATC system to avoid operational delays/impacts that would be inevitable when DOD aircraft need special handling.
 
N801BH said:
Hi Ryan...

This is where your survey falls apart.... Earlier you said..

"Ben,

I'm a service member, not an employee and this project has nothing to do with my military status. Seeing how this mandate is exempt to military aircraft and even if it wasn't the costs would in no way interfere with me, my outlook or the mandate's effect on general aviation users, I can't see how "my question is a total conflict of interest." Thank you for your input."

-Ryan

And now you disclose that the DOD was involved in the comments..

According to the FAA, "Numerous commenters, including the DOD, contended that the proposal required WAAS (or implied that the positioning service used by the aircraft have an availability equivalent to WAAS.)


Which begs the question... If " Seeing how this mandate is exempt to military aircraft "

Why would the DOD even want to comment ? If it does NOT effect them ?:dunno::dunno:...:confused:
Click to expand...

Ben,

The DoD cares and gets a say because of the following:

In order for other GPS technologies (non WAAS) to become more accurate they unlike WAAS will need a bigger satellite infrastructure, reallocating more bandwidth and satellites to them. Who will this infrastructure come from.... The DoD, so you can see why they would not want to go for this.

But that is besides the point, I'm having a hard time seeing the issues of the survey failing. I can't change the situation were in, just present my findings.

the survey is to see how this affects individuals, now everyone's situation is different, so I can't write a question for each of them. Yes, I'm unaffected as a part time guard pilot, but my full time job flying for a non-federal agency is, and we a currently working a plan to get our aircraft up to speed before 2020.

Do you have any questions that you think should be added?

Thank you for your time,

Ryan
 
The cost is not going to be inexpensive, but it is already starting to come down. FreeFlight announced a complete system including a built in position source that sells for just under $4000. The Trig TT31 and its OEM variants have street prices around $2500 but need a position source. Someone will get smart and offer a variant with a built in position source for around $3500. Then the competition will kick in. So if all one wants to do is install the minimum to obtain compliance, the price point will likely fall below $3000 and it won't be $7000. Even this will be beyond some owners justification. For those who are stuck under the class B shelf or inside the 30 NM veil, it will have a significant impact, however there is a big country out there that non transponder and or ADS-B equipped aircraft can operate. I doubt that overall equipment compliance with the rule will be much above 70% because of this. For someone who bases outside of a class B area and occasionally flies into one, they can get one off permission for the flights, particularly if they are mode C equipped.
 
docmirror said:
Took survey. Around 2020, I'll prolly be removing my 4096 txp with mode C and just go primary return.
Click to expand...
Great idea, you could also paint a large Bullseye on you plane for the drones to hit.
 
brien23 said:
Great idea, you could also paint a large Bullseye on you plane for the drones to hit.
Click to expand...

Yup, cuz flying a non-ADS-B plane out in the NAS outside the zones is gonna be illegal. Right.
 
Here are some of my answers and recommendations for changes to your survey.

4. What class of airspace is your primary airfield?

My aircraft is based at an airport that is class G, but is under a class B shelf. The class of my primary airfield is not the issue, it is the fact that I am based in, under a class B airspace or within the 30 NM class B veil that is relevant.


11. Does your aircraft have a 4096 transponder with mode C installed?

No, but it does have a mode S transponder installed that replies with altitude. I would change the question to read "with altitude reporting capability" or include mode S.


13. If you own your own aircraft, based on a cost of $7,000-$10,000+, are you planning on upgrading your current airframe to ADS-B out?

If you own your own aircraft, based on a cost of $7,000-$10,000+, are you planning on upgrading your current airframe to ADS-B out?

I already installed a GDL88 for $4500. The question might be changed to or installed. You might want to also ask what the cost was if it was installed, under 2000, 2001 to 4000, 4001 to 6000, 6001 to 8000, above 8001.

14. If you plan on modifying your airframe with ADS-B will you use an Extended Squitter (ES) or Universal Access Transceiver (UAT)?

I have a GTX330 and GNS530W installed. It could have been upgraded to ES for $1200. Since I do not fly above 18,000 MSL, I saw no benefit to me to upgrade to ES as my installed solution would not include traffic. I installed a GDL88 instead for $4500 using the GNS530W as the position source. This provided me with traffic and weather on the GNS530W which I perceived as a significant benefit, particularly the traffic.

15. If you do upgrade your airframe to ADS-B Out, would you also upgrade to ADS-B In?

I installed a GDL88 and it has dual frequency ADS-B In capability. I also own a portable Stratus 2 that has the same capability. You should also ask if the pilot intends to purchase or has purchased a portable ADSB solution as this can be a much less expensive option.


20. Do you believe this mandate is just?

This is not a yes no answer. I think some relief should be given to permitting operation inside the class B 30 NM veil and below the shelf by aircraft that are mode C equipped.
 
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