ADS-B Effects

[N801BH]

Ben,

The DoD cares and gets a say because of the following:

In order for other GPS technologies (non WAAS) to become more accurate they unlike WAAS will need a bigger satellite infrastructure, reallocating more bandwidth and satellites to them. Who will this infrastructure come from.... The DoD, so you can see why they would not want to go for this.

But that is besides the point, I'm having a hard time seeing the issues of the survey failing. I can't change the situation were in, just present my findings.

the survey is to see how this affects individuals, now everyone's situation is different, so I can't write a question for each of them. Yes, I'm unaffected as a part time guard pilot, but my full time job flying for a non-federal agency is, and we a currently working a plan to get our aircraft up to speed before 2020.

Do you have any questions that you think should be added?

Thank you for your time,

Ryan

Ryan... I was in error in using the word (Failing.)

My concern is the half baked idea of ADS-B and I think Denverpilot / Nate is well versed and alot better spokesman then me in describing it's issues....

I commend you for drafting the survey and the work involved in compilling the data........:wink2:

 

[Bob Noel]

The cost is not going to be inexpensive, but it is already starting to come down. FreeFlight announced a complete system including a built in position source that sells for just under $4000. The Trig TT31 and its OEM variants have street prices around $2500 but need a position source. Someone will get smart and offer a variant with a built in position source for around $3500. Then the competition will kick in. So if all one wants to do is install the minimum to obtain compliance, the price point will likely fall below $3000 and it won't be $7000. Even this will be beyond some owners justification. For those who are stuck under the class B shelf or inside the 30 NM veil, it will have a significant impact, however there is a big country out there that non transponder and or ADS-B equipped aircraft can operate. I doubt that overall equipment compliance with the rule will be much above 70% because of this. For someone who bases outside of a class B area and occasionally flies into one, they can get one off permission for the flights, particularly if they are mode C equipped.

um, that $3000 figure includes the GPS source as well as the ADS-B out transmitter? Is that the box cost or the installed cost?

 

[John Collins]

um, that $3000 figure includes the GPS source as well as the ADS-B out transmitter? Is that the box cost or the installed cost?

This is simply my opinion based on costs currently available. A Trig TT31 can be installed in place of an existing KT76A, plug and play for around $2500. If a Trig TT31 had a version with an integrated GPS position source (they list a position source that is only sold OEM for internal packaging use), then all that the install would need would be the extra GPS antenna. I would estimate this to take no more than 4 hours of labor. So a street price for the combined unit cost of around $3000 would get installed for less than $500. If the aircraft had a transponder such as an Narco AT150A that isn't pin compatible with the replacement unit, I would estimate another 8 hours of installation labor.

I expect to see both 1090ES transponder based solutions and UAT alternatives in this price range with integrated position sources.

 

[ClimbnSink]

TV pilots are going to be even more certain everything they need to know is on their TVs I'm not planning on installing ads-b in my paragliders, y'all try and look out the window once in a while please.

 

[docmirror]

The saddest part of the ADS-B deal to me is the loss of GA in and around major metro centers. If I had an airport inside a mode C area, or in a class C airspace I'd be scared. Sure, I'm the poster boy for unruly noncompliance, but there are thousands of wknd pilots who are going to move their plane outside the veil or away from a class C airport and either not fly in anymore, or sell the plane to someone who wants the hassle of being watched and tracked constantly. Heck, I"m sure there are people on this board who will say 'good, we do not need non-compliant GA in there'. Well, congrats, you'll eventually get everything you so richly deserve.

It's another cut near the jugular of GA. It's not fatal, but sure puts a lot of airframes, and pilots on notice that the feds just don't want you around any more. I also consider that it's a solution in search of a problem in many cases where conflicts don't really exist, or can be minimized in other ways.

If there is going to be an exception process for mode C and class C areas, I'm going to find out all about it, cause if I want to go in, surely I'll be one of those that stops at an outlying area, makes a phone call, gets a squawk, and dives in. Then get a phone call, and dive back out again. Not sure if this will be 'at discression' or not allowed, or 'if you ask nicely', but the whole exception process is kind of BS also.

 

[m38_a1]

Here are some of my answers and recommendations for changes to your survey.

4. What class of airspace is your primary airfield?

My aircraft is based at an airport that is class G, but is under a class B shelf. The class of my primary airfield is not the issue, it is the fact that I am based in, under a class B airspace or within the 30 NM class B veil that is relevant.


11. Does your aircraft have a 4096 transponder with mode C installed?

No, but it does have a mode S transponder installed that replies with altitude. I would change the question to read "with altitude reporting capability" or include mode S.


13. If you own your own aircraft, based on a cost of $7,000-$10,000+, are you planning on upgrading your current airframe to ADS-B out?

If you own your own aircraft, based on a cost of $7,000-$10,000+, are you planning on upgrading your current airframe to ADS-B out?

I already installed a GDL88 for $4500. The question might be changed to or installed. You might want to also ask what the cost was if it was installed, under 2000, 2001 to 4000, 4001 to 6000, 6001 to 8000, above 8001.

14. If you plan on modifying your airframe with ADS-B will you use an Extended Squitter (ES) or Universal Access Transceiver (UAT)?

I have a GTX330 and GNS530W installed. It could have been upgraded to ES for $1200. Since I do not fly above 18,000 MSL, I saw no benefit to me to upgrade to ES as my installed solution would not include traffic. I installed a GDL88 instead for $4500 using the GNS530W as the position source. This provided me with traffic and weather on the GNS530W which I perceived as a significant benefit, particularly the traffic.

15. If you do upgrade your airframe to ADS-B Out, would you also upgrade to ADS-B In?

I installed a GDL88 and it has dual frequency ADS-B In capability. I also own a portable Stratus 2 that has the same capability. You should also ask if the pilot intends to purchase or has purchased a portable ADSB solution as this can be a much less expensive option.


20. Do you believe this mandate is just?

This is not a yes no answer. I think some relief should be given to permitting operation inside the class B 30 NM veil and below the shelf by aircraft that are mode C equipped.

John,

Great input.

I was able to make most of the changes, however I can't go down to many rabbit holes, because of the report requirements. Thanks,

-Ryan

 

[Topper]

As others stated, your survey did not allow for the possibility that I had already upgraded. Mine was part of a 36k panel upgrade and I have no idea how much was related to the ads-b.

 

[JimNtexas]

First post.....

...
Seeing how you posted you are a government employee and those funds will help fund your paycheck, I would say your question is a total conflict of interest.. IMHO..

That is one of the most childish statements I've ever seen on the interwebs.

 

[N801BH]

That is one of the most childish statements I've ever seen on the interwebs.

Thanks for confirming my thoughts sir...
..

Ps.... Nice avatar...

 

[m38_a1]

Good point, I changed the question to would you or have you.

Thanks,

-Ryan

 

[denverpilot]

I guess most of you weren't pilots or maybe even around when the mandate came out for GA aircraft to get 4096 Transponders. The panic and drama back then was much like it is now. As well as the astronomical prices quoted for what the new-fangled equipment would cost. Amazingly and falling right in line with general economic principles as the reckoning day neared the prices for the new boxes began FALLING. Just like it will for this equipment too.



And just like back then if you didn't like it you can always get a nice J-3 or Champ and do something most have forgotten - stick and rudder flying for the sake of flying. So quit your whining ! I'm tired of hearing how the worlds gonna end ! Give it a rest, you guys sound like a bunch of 15 year old girls !

So mandating stuff that's unnecessary and generally useless, and requires the public pay for billions of infrastructure to support the mandate is ok -- because someone will eventually make it cheaper.

Got it. LOL.

No one is claiming the world is going to end. Quite the opposite. Throw ADS-B in the 90s era tech trash can it belongs in, and nothing bad will happen other than a lower FAA bill.

 

[denverpilot]

That is one of the most childish statements I've ever seen on the interwebs.

Or realistic.

 

[frcabot]

I had a GDL 88 installed and coupled to my GTN 650. Well under $3,500 and frankly mostly worth the price given that I get free traffic and weather (incl. winds aloft, etc.) now, and I'm 2020-ready.

 

[hankrausch]

Ryan, I did fill out the survey but just wanted to get this off my chest--for quite some time, I have been planning on quitting flying the day the mandate goes into effect. My little plane is only worth $12,000 but I fly the heck out of it, about 150-200 hours a year. But putting a $3k-$10k piece of avionics into it that does nothing for me does not make any sense. (no I do not need inflight weather, my plane has a windshield).

 

[John Collins]

Ryan, I did fill out the survey but just wanted to get this off my chest--for quite some time, I have been planning on quitting flying the day the mandate goes into effect. My little plane is only worth $12,000 but I fly the heck out of it, about 150-200 hours a year. But putting a $3k-$10k piece of avionics into it that does nothing for me does not make any sense. (no I do not need inflight weather, my plane has a windshield).

Are you inside the DC mode B 30 NM veil. Are you based at WV21? If so, would it change your mind if the rule was changed to permit Mode C equipped aircraft to fly at or below 2500 AGL inside the 30 NM veil or under a Class B shelf?

 

[docmirror]

Are you inside the DC mode B 30 NM veil. Are you based at WV21? If so, would it change your mind if the rule was changed to permit Mode C equipped aircraft to fly at or below 2500 AGL inside the 30 NM veil or under a Class B shelf?

I don't know about him, I would endorse this. But this would be a major improvement in the deployment of the mandate. So - that clearly means it'll never, ever happen.

 

[winrose46]

I had a GDL 88 installed and coupled to my GTN 650. Well under $3,500 and frankly mostly worth the price given that I get free traffic and weather (incl. winds aloft, etc.) now, and I'm 2020-ready.

Unfortunately, I had to upgrade to the GDL-88 for 6.4K a month ago. They quoted 2.4K for ADS-B out and my transponder did not have the upgrade capability.
ADS_B Out for me was not an option just outside of the DC SFRA. It has changed the way I fly. Before I had the capability, I flew IFR for all of my cross country flights. Now with the traffic display on my iPad 3, I have taken several trips VFR when my earlier ones would have been IFR. I prefer to fly to CT via the east side of NYC and IFR they route me north on the west side and east on my return trip. I will fly (weather permitting) on my next CT trip VFR on the east side with the ADS_B traffic display.

 

[jdm117]

My name is Ryan.

I’m a Commercial pilot and CFI/II with rotorcraft/instrument ratings. I’m also a UH-60 Instructor Pilot and Instrument Flight Examiner for the Army National Guard.

Currently I’m conducting a research project for completion of Bachelor’s degree in Aeronautical Science with Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University.

I chose to write about the effects of the ADS-B mandatory implementation by the FAA. Main focus of this survey is to get a feel from the General Aviation (GA) community and how the implementation will effect GA users.

Most other users out in the airspace (commercial, etc.) will be able to pass along costs of this implementation to their clients, however individuals and small organizations not flying for hire will have significant upgrade fees just to operate in the National Airspace System (NAS).

If you could please take the time to fill out several multiple choice questions in regard to how the FAA ADS-B Out mandate will effect you. If you are unsure of the mandate or ADS-B, additional information and links will be available on corresponding questions later in the survey. Please follow the link below.

Thank you for your time,

-Ryan

https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/5NX3XTN

I conducted a similar survey while completing my ERAU degree. Just filter out the complaining & nonconstructive criticism and roll with it. You'll get good feedback in the end, but it won't be without pain. Hang in there. :wink2:

 

[N801BH]

I conducted a similar survey while completing my ERAU degree. Just filter out the complaining & nonconstructive criticism and roll with it. You'll get good feedback in the end, but it won't be without pain. Hang in there. :wink2:

Define non constructive criticism .......