ADS-B Dilemma for Owners of Class A-Capable Airplanes

[Unit74]

Good luck seeing price reductions on ADSB products.....kinda like being the only liquor store in a neighborhood, your business is pretty much guarenteed with the mandate.

My concern is that if I install a GDL 88 now, in two years is there going to be something with better options, integrated wifi or some other got to have option.

FWIW, I have an installed quote of $5k for a GDL 88 only right now.

 

[Silvaire]

The only problem is that even if every avionics shop in the country started doing nothing but ADS-B installs today, they wouldn't even come close to finishing the GA fleet by 2020...

I don't know where you're getting that "statistic" but I suspect it's based on some bogus numbers. For one thing, not every plane in the GA fleet is gonna get it. There are airplanes out there right now that are flying around perfectly happy without Mode-C. Some people are going to need it but not everyone.

 

[Silvaire]

...My concern is that if I install a GDL 88 now, in two years is there going to be something with better options, integrated wifi or some other got to have option....

With electronics? Gosh that hardly ever happens.

 

[Shawn]

and gets me priority handling if I need an IFR clearance, etc.

How does having ADS-B out get you "priority handling?"

Funny you say that...ever since I installed ADS-B out I feel like I have been getting much better and accommodating responses from ATC when making requests even when just VFR. Hell, just the other day ATC let me dive bomb through LAX Bravo off the published course and buzz KLGB at 1100' to get under a marine layer to get to my destination and remain VFR while I am hearing denials and diversions like crazy with other pilots. I was a bit shocked to hear "approved as requested"!

From that and numerous other encounters I developed the suspicion that having the ADS-B out "may" put ya in a different category of professionalism and experience in the controllers mind from the low time weekend warrior that is just gonna get in the way of their IFR traffic and true or not...gives the impression that you know what you are doing if you are flying a plane that is equipped with ADS-B out since it is still a relatively small percentage of small GA planes that make the effort to get equipped.

 

[petrolero]

The GDL88 doesn't impact your ability to operate in Class A one way or the other. Whether you put in a GDL88 or a UAT In box, you'll still need the 1090ES Out capability for Class A. You likely won't get a full-featured interface (or any interface at all) with a GTN from a non-Garmin box, in which case the portable receivers may make more sense.

Garmin now has the FlightStream units which will provide Bluetooth capability to the GDL88 and GTN, but they are locked to the Garmin Pilot app.

There is a rumor that perhaps ForeFlight will introduce support for the FreeFlight box, though their Stratus partner Appareo apparently plans to enter the certified ADS-B market in the near future. It will be interesting to see how that plays out, but it appears that there isn't a material difference in flexibility between installed versus portable ADS-B In solutions at the moment.


JKG

Ok, true. I wasn't clear enough. The GDL 88 would clip me if used with my current Mode C xpdr after 2020.

So I'm going to have to upgrade to ES for sure. Then the question is what's the cheapest UAT-in solution. Not the GDL 88 by a long shot since it is UAT in/out.

 

[JGoodish]

My concern is that if I install a GDL 88 now, in two years is there going to be something with better options, integrated wifi or some other got to have option.

The capabilities of ADS-B transceivers are largely constrained by the system in which they operate. Garmin seems committed to Bluetooth for wireless connectivity, and since they released the FlightStream devices, I suspect that it is unlikely that they will release a GDL88 with integrated Bluetooth.


JKG

 

[JGoodish]

Ok, true. I wasn't clear enough. The GDL 88 would clip me if used with my current Mode C xpdr after 2020.

So I'm going to have to upgrade to ES for sure. Then the question is what's the cheapest UAT-in solution. Not the GDL 88 by a long shot since it is UAT in/out.

Well, to be clear, it's your Mode C transponder that's clipping you, not the GDL88. The GDL88 wouldn't do anything to help you, however.

To be honest, if I was in your position, I'd probably stick with a portable ADS-B In solution and just plan on replacing your transponder to comply with the mandate.

For aircraft that will remain under 18,000 feet, cost seems to be comparable between a 1090ES transponder and the GDL88, not considering the requirement for a certified position source.


JKG

 

[petrolero]

Well, to be clear, it's your Mode C transponder that's clipping you, not the GDL88. The GDL88 wouldn't do anything to help you, however.

To be honest, if I was in your position, I'd probably stick with a portable ADS-B In solution and just plan on replacing your transponder to comply with the mandate.

For aircraft that will remain under 18,000 feet, cost seems to be comparable between a 1090ES transponder and the GDL88, not considering the requirement for a certified position source.


JKG

In summation,

Mode ES xpdr + FreeFlight or BK UAT-in-only

Would cost much less than

Mode ES xpdr + GDL 88 if indeed the GDL88 can even functions as UAT-in-only (you certainly pay for an in/out capability)

________

But yes, ADS-B goodies on the ipad will be there either way. Guess I should check to see if the GTN gives audible traffic alerts. If not, then there would be little gain in UAT-in.

 

[John Collins]

In summation,

Mode ES xpdr + FreeFlight or BK UAT-in-only

Would cost much less than

Mode ES xpdr + GDL 88 if indeed the GDL88 can even functions as UAT-in-only (you certainly pay for an in/out capability)

________

But yes, ADS-B goodies on the ipad will be there either way. Guess I should check to see if the GTN gives audible traffic alerts. If not, then there would be little gain in UAT-in.

If you have or plan to install a GNS430W/530W or GTN, then you should definitely consider a GDL88. The GDL88 is a UAT IN/OUT with dual In receiver. If you also need to install a 1090ES transponder to fly at 18000 MSL and above, the Trig or its OEM variants are more cost effective than the Garmin solution. The Garmin GPS units will display the traffic and weather from the GDL88 and the GDL88 generates the audio, not the GPS. A GTN has greater capability for displaying traffic than the GNS, more targets (31 verses 8), surface support, Target trend information and has a complete set of weather products. The GDL88 can be installed as an In only box if you wish, but I would use both the Out and In features along with an ES transponder as an Out if needed.

Just because an airplane is capable of reaching the flight levels doesn't automatically mean you should equip it with ES. I know of several TN aircraft that never are operated above the low teens. Analyze your flying and ask the question "Have I had my airplane up to 18000 feet or higher in the last year, two years, five years?" Depending on your answer, you might decide having the capability isn't worth the cost if it is never used.

Edit: What you must consider is will my UAT In work with my panel equipment. As of today, none of the other solutions will work with the GTN or GNS other than the GDL88. If you don't plan to interface to your panel GPS for display, then you don't need a built in ADS-B In as the portables will already work at a much lower price point.

 

[MooneyDriver78]

I'm not sure what minds you don't think are made up with respect to the FAA. It seems as though they've affirmed the mandate and the date several times now, including again recently. The ground systems are deployed, and the commercial operators are or will be using the technology by the 2020 date. I'm not saying that things can't or won't change, but I'm also not seeing any evidence that they will.

Well if we can use history as our guide, a while back when we were going to digital TV and trying to get rid of analog, there was a delay. BUT, that's because the broadcasters weren't ready, not the public. IF FAA or big airlines needed more time, they will get it, but if you think they are going to delay it for GA...

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I agree that Cheese is perhaps overstating the installation challenge

There are 7,027 aircraft registered in my state, and three avionics shops with a total of 6 techs. There are about 1350 working days before the deadline. So, if each tech completes one per day every day until the deadline, they'll make it. No, not everyone will upgrade but I would say 80% probably will, with the other 20% being hangar/ramp queens or no-electrical-system types. And I would guess that the average upgrader isn't just going to comply, they're going to install some other gear to get more of an advantage out of it which will further slow the process down.

assumes facts not in evidence. i have eno facts either, but I'll bet that the percentage of planes that get a panel-mounted solution will be pretty small.

I think 80% is a fairly safe bet. Look at how few aircraft don't have a mode C transponder. You'll be pretty limited in what you can do without one.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Well if we can use history as our guide, a while back when we were going to digital TV and trying to get rid of analog, there was a delay. BUT, that's because the broadcasters weren't ready, not the public. IF FAA or big airlines needed more time, they will get it, but if you think they are going to delay it for GA...

And from what I've seen, the airlines have been equipping. I see tons of airliners on my iPad. I don't think they're going to have any problem meeting the 2020 mandate.

 

[John Collins]

I will be pleasantly surprised if 70% ever do the upgrade to ADS-B Out. Unless the cost gets close to a transponder replacement, those aircraft in the hinterlands will not have a need to comply and it will be economically unjustified. I rarely had a C172 or PA28 over 10000 MSL. There are many pilots who would never go near a tower, much less a Class C or B. There are also a relatively large number of airplanes that never or rarely fly.

The last survey published by the FAA for GA indicates (2012) that about 90% of the aircraft have an electrical system and only 73.8% have a mode C transponder. I seriously doubt that the ADS-B numbers will come close to the mode C numbers, at best 90% or about 2/3 of the fleet.

 

[John Collins]

New production airplanes will be compliant, but most of the existing fleet that is equipped will need to be upgraded from version 0 or 1 to the compliant version 2. This will be no mean feat.

 

[JGoodish]

In summation,

Mode ES xpdr + FreeFlight or BK UAT-in-only

Would cost much less than

Mode ES xpdr + GDL 88 if indeed the GDL88 can even functions as UAT-in-only (you certainly pay for an in/out capability)

________

But yes, ADS-B goodies on the ipad will be there either way. Guess I should check to see if the GTN gives audible traffic alerts. If not, then there would be little gain in UAT-in.

I guess I'm not seeing the cost advantage to an installed In-only system versus a portable. To me, the reason to get an installed system would be to display on installed avionics. In either case, the display device (or app) largely dictates your hardware options.

The FreeFlight RANGR system doesn't appear to be materially less expensive than the GDL88, but it does have less capability.

The GLD88 can be paired with a 1090ES transponder. It is not an either/or proposition.

In response to John's comment about whether you even need ES, I think it would be foolish to make an investment in equipment that constrains an otherwise capable airplane to flight below Class A airspace, even if you personally never fly that high. Seems to me that it would have a detrimental impact on resale value should you choose to sell the aircraft in the future. What it could mean, though, is that you may defer the ES capability until a later date, while still complying with the mandate for your type of operation. Still, I think I'd rather equip for the mandate based on the capability of the aircraft.

The GTN does provide audible traffic alerts, but so do some of the portable solutions.


JKG

 

[Bob Noel]

hat Cheese is perhaps overstating the installation challenge, but complying with the mandate is a little more than just sliding a transponder into the panel. I don't know that I'd want to wait until summer or fall of 2019 to have the install done, but I do think that if you're having a transponder replaced now anyway, it may make sense to consider complying with the mandate.


JKG

Amdm don't forget that it's not just the transponder that is needed, you need the gold-plated GPS.

 

[John Collins]

In response to John's comment about whether you even need ES, I think it would be foolish to make an investment in equipment that constrains an otherwise capable airplane to flight below Class A airspace, even if you personally never fly that high. Seems to me that it would have a detrimental impact on resale value should you choose to sell the aircraft in the future. What it could mean, though, is that you may defer the ES capability until a later date, while still complying with the mandate for your type of operation. Still, I think I'd rather equip for the mandate based on the capability of the aircraft.

The GTN does provide audible traffic alerts, but so do some of the portable solutions.


JKG

I don't disagree if you are going to make use of the capability or wish to keep the option open. What I was really pointing out is that the equipage is a usage issue, IOW just because your service ceiling is 18000 feet or higher, the mandate doesn't require that you install ES, it just means that ES must be installed to fly at or above 18000 MSL. I have heard of some installers claiming that if the service ceiling is at or above 18,000 MSL an ES is required to be installed. This is patently false. A Baron has a service ceiling near 20,000 feet, but I would not waste my money to install an ES.

The GDL88 generates the traffic audio output for a target alert, not the GTN.

 

[MooneyDriver78]

So, if each tech completes one per day every day until the deadline, they'll make it.

That's a HUGE IF, have you had any avionics work done??
In my experience, unless it's a simple swap, no new tray/antenna required, it's going to take more like several days

 

[JGoodish]

There are 7,027 aircraft registered in my state, and three avionics shops with a total of 6 techs. There are about 1350 working days before the deadline. So, if each tech completes one per day every day until the deadline, they'll make it. No, not everyone will upgrade but I would say 80% probably will, with the other 20% being hangar/ramp queens or no-electrical-system types. And I would guess that the average upgrader isn't just going to comply, they're going to install some other gear to get more of an advantage out of it which will further slow the process down.

You really need to consider how many of those GA aircraft operate (and will continue to operate) under IFR, or who are otherwise based (and will continue to be based) in airspace areas affected by the mandate. While there would obviously be a speculative component in the resulting number, I suspect that it would be substantially less than 80% of the fleet. At my airport, [sadly] most of the hangar doors rarely ever open, and we have airplanes rotting on the ramp.

However, I do think that waiting until the last minute is likely to result in higher prices and longer wait times. There are only a finite (and shrinking) number of shops to do the work. Even if a fraction of the fleet lines up in 5 years, that's still a pretty big task in a short amount of time, especially if you consider unrelated shop workloads.


JKG

 

[MooneyDriver78]

It is going to be like a toll fee on cars but more expensive. If they have it on cars why not on airplanes.

Because if they want $ from airplane owners, they don't need ADSB, they just query the FAA database and send out tax bills to all registered airplane owners.
Oh sure there is and will be user/landing fees for selected airports...why, because they don't want you to land there. Take the hint, go elsewhere.

 

[John Collins]

Hopefully Trig will develop a transponder version with a built in GPS WAAS position source. They have indicated it is in the cards, not sure if and when. I suspect it will still be $3000 +, certainly with a GPS antenna plus some installation costs.

 

[JHW]

There are 7,027 aircraft registered in my state, and three avionics shops with a total of 6 techs. There are about 1350 working days before the deadline. So, if each tech completes one per day every day until the deadline, they'll make it. No, not everyone will upgrade but I would say 80% probably will, with the other 20% being hangar/ramp queens or no-electrical-system types. And I would guess that the average upgrader isn't just going to comply, they're going to install some other gear to get more of an advantage out of it which will further slow the process down.



I think 80% is a fairly safe bet. Look at how few aircraft don't have a mode C transponder. You'll be pretty limited in what you can do without one.

Irrelevant. No need for an avionics shop to install some of the solutions coming out now, just your local A&P/IA

I think 80% is a fairly safe bet. Look at how few aircraft don't have a mode C transponder. You'll be pretty limited in what you can do without one.

How many of those fly above 10k ? how many of them fly at all ?

 

[flyingcheesehead]

That's a HUGE IF, have you had any avionics work done??
In my experience, unless it's a simple swap, no new tray/antenna required, it's going to take more like several days

Exactly... Thus supporting my point that it's going to be awfully difficult to get everyone who wants/needs to be equipped, equipped by 2020.

You really need to consider how many of those GA aircraft operate (and will continue to operate) under IFR, or who are otherwise based (and will continue to be based) in airspace areas affected by the mandate.

Anyone who ever wants to be able to fly above 4-digit altitudes will need it. It's not just an "IFR" thing.

 

[kyleb]

EAA, AOPA, and the Aviation Coalition on Capital Hill need to push through a process by which any WAAS enabled GPS can be used as a position source ADS-B in VFR conditions/airspace. There is no need for a $4k GPS to provide location information in a VFR environment.

 

[winrose46]

You really need to consider how many of those GA aircraft operate (and will continue to operate) under IFR, or who are otherwise based (and will continue to be based) in airspace areas affected by the mandate. While there would obviously be a speculative component in the resulting number, I suspect that it would be substantially less than 80% of the fleet. At my airport, [sadly] most of the hangar doors rarely ever open, and we have airplanes rotting on the ramp.

Having ADS_B Out installed, I have been more inclined to fly VFR if conditions permit. A lot of my IFR flying has been in VFR conditions and I did it for traffic advisories which I do not need with the ADS_B In traffic.

 

[Alexb2000]

Having ADS_B Out installed, I have been more inclined to fly VFR if conditions permit. A lot of my IFR flying has been in VFR conditions and I did it for traffic advisories which I do not need with the ADS_B In traffic.

Flying back and forth to Osh, I learned that there isn't much difference in IFR vs. VFR flight following. I didn't see the ground for 400 miles, yet I had "VFR" aircraft 500' above and below me. I don't care as long as they're talking and have a current altimeter. I expect this to increase 100 fold with the new ADS-B requirements. Add user fees and no one will file IFR unless the conditions absolutely demand it for a low approach or something.

 

[TomCC]

Add user fees and no one will file IFR unless the conditions absolutely demand it for a low approach or something.

I agree that this could be the case. If so, it would decrease the demand for ATC services, thus decreasing the govt costs for those services. I would opine that user fees are thus less likely to be implemented shortly after everyone is ADS equipped as AOPA et al can argue correctly that users have already made great personal expenditures that increases safety while decreasing the need for govt resources.

To the OP: I'm in the same boat as you. I'm new to the boards here but have the same dilemma in decided how to equip my turbo plane. The GDL88 18k limit is a little silly and I have a hard time trying to justify this. I do have related questions that I will start a new thread on...

 

[John Collins]

To the OP: I'm in the same boat as you. I'm new to the boards here but have the same dilemma in decided how to equip my turbo plane. The GDL88 18k limit is a little silly and I have a hard time trying to justify this. I do have related questions that I will start a new thread on...

If you are a regular operator at the flight levels, the GDL88 is just an ADS-B in box that supports Garmin panel mount GPS displays. IOW, the ADS-B Out portion is not of use to you other than as a backup when below 18000. With respect to ADS-B In services, they are available in the flight levels and TISB is available up to FL240. These In services are valuable and not silly. There are other ways of obtaining the equivalent of the ADS-B In services on your Garmin Panel mount, but the GDL88 is still the least expensive when compared to an active traffic system and or an XM weather system.

 

[Alexb2000]

If you are a regular operator at the flight levels, the GDL88 is just an ADS-B in box that supports Garmin panel mount GPS displays. IOW, the ADS-B Out portion is not of use to you other than as a backup when below 18000. With respect to ADS-B In services, they are available in the flight levels and TISB is available up to FL240. These In services are valuable and not silly. There are other ways of obtaining the equivalent of the ADS-B In services on your Garmin Panel mount, but the GDL88 is still the least expensive when compared to an active traffic system and or an XM weather system.

John-

I have a G1000 and a bird that can go to 270. Everyone is telling me to wait because there isn't a full ADS-B solution available yet. Any advice?

 

[John Collins]

As far as I know, Garmin hasn't delivered a 2020 compliant ADS-B Out solution to its customers for the G1000 system, so there is not much you can do. What is your airframe and year? The Cirrus current production may be compliant, but I haven't been able to confirm this.

 

[MooneyDriver78]

John-



I have a G1000 and a bird that can go to 270. Everyone is telling me to wait because there isn't a full ADS-B solution available yet. Any advice?

I'm assuming that was a G1000 specific statement. Any 1030ES transponder is all you need, and if want traffic/WX, then it gets complicated, does/will Garmin support ADSB via firmware, do they need new hardware, etc

 

[Alexb2000]

As far as I know, Garmin hasn't delivered a 2020 compliant ADS-B Out solution to its customers for the G1000 system, so there is not much you can do. What is your airframe and year? The Cirrus current production may be compliant, but I haven't been able to confirm this.

2010 T206H (WAAS G1000). I had heard I need to wait for Garmin, I wanted to ask you in case there was something I wasn't aware of. Thanks.

I'm assuming that was a G1000 specific statement. Any 1030ES transponder is all you need, and if want traffic/WX, then it gets complicated, does/will Garmin support ADSB via firmware, do they need new hardware, etc

Exactly G1000 specific. If I am going to do ADS-B, I'm going to do it in a way that gets me all of the advantages vs. a half step. I am really hopping a lot of it can be done using firmware, but who knows.

 

[TomCC]

If you are a regular operator at the flight levels, the GDL88 is just an ADS-B in box that supports Garmin panel mount GPS displays. IOW, the ADS-B Out portion is not of use to you other than as a backup when below 18000. With respect to ADS-B In services, they are available in the flight levels and TISB is available up to FL240. These In services are valuable and not silly. There are other ways of obtaining the equivalent of the ADS-B In services on your Garmin Panel mount, but the GDL88 is still the least expensive when compared to an active traffic system and or an XM weather system.

I don't mean to imply that that the services are silly. I mean that the top of the line unit (GTN-750) is only offered with a UAT (sub-18,000 "out") ADS unit (the GDL88). Adding 1090 ES capability to the GTN-750 (for use over FL180) ads another $3,000-4,000 on top of the $4,000 GDL88.

A separate KT74 and GDL39 on an Ipad seems like a less expensive and better option than the GDL88 (unless I'm missing something).

 

[John Collins]

I don't mean to imply that that the services are silly. I mean that the top of the line unit (GTN-750) is only offered with a UAT (sub-18,000 "out") ADS unit (the GDL88). Adding 1090 ES capability to the GTN-750 (for use over FL180) ads another $3,000-4,000 on top of the $4,000 GDL88.

A separate KT74 and GDL39 on an Ipad seems like a less expensive and better option than the GDL88 (unless I'm missing something).

It all depends. If you have a GDL88 with a GTN, it offers a certified solution that includes weather and excellent traffic. I own a Stratus 2 and use ForeFlight, but use the panel mounted stuff for traffic with a GDL88/GNS530W combination. The least costly approach would have been for me to upgrade my already installed GTX330 to ES (only about +$1500), but then I would only have a portable solution. I chose to go with the GDL88 and absolutely love the traffic. I use the portable more like I use a map, look at it when I need to and don't have it continuously in view. The portable is a great backup, but so far, my panel mount has not overheated in the Sun or had the battery drain down during the flight because a power cable was loose or become difficult in the bright of day to read.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Exactly G1000 specific. If I am going to do ADS-B, I'm going to do it in a way that gets me all of the advantages vs. a half step. I am really hopping a lot of it can be done using firmware, but who knows.

Upgrade the GTX33 to ES?

And Garmin does say that the GDL88 will be able to display on the G1000 after future software upgrades.

The combination of the two will probably be your only good option.

 

[Amelia]

Hi, I'm late to the party as usual...
I have a turbo Mooney with a GNS530W, and an old,but serviceable KT76A. Despite this bird's innate capability, I rarely bust the flight levels.

Does the highly-touted GTX330es buy anything the much-cheaper slide-in KT74 doesn't?

Confused. All either box offers me is a nicer return on ATC scopes, and admission to FL180 after 2020? Neither will get me traffic and WX info displayed on the 530 screen?
I currently use a Dual XGPS170 to display weather, and the occasional traffic, on the iPad. It receives 978-returns directly, and 1070 from ground stations, if I have that straight...always a dodgy premise. What I can expect is more and better ground station information, but would have to switch ADS-B receivers if I wanted it all?

Thanks for any basic concept enhancement y'all might offer!

 

[MooneyDriver78]

Hi, I'm late to the party as usual...
I have a turbo Mooney with a GNS530W, and an old,but serviceable KT76A. Despite this bird's innate capability, I rarely bust the flight levels.

Does the highly-touted GTX330es buy anything the much-cheaper slide-in KT74 doesn't?

Confused. All either box offers me is a nicer return on ATC scopes, and admission to FL180 after 2020? Neither will get me traffic and WX info displayed on the 530 screen?

You can set the 330 from a GTN!
They both give you TIS-A, however the KT74 hasn't been approved yet, trig just announced, so expect King to follow soon. If you need ADSB/TIS today, get the garmin, if you can wait, you'll save $ with King.

 

[John Collins]

Hi, I'm late to the party as usual...
I have a turbo Mooney with a GNS530W, and an old,but serviceable KT76A. Despite this bird's innate capability, I rarely bust the flight levels.

Does the highly-touted GTX330es buy anything the much-cheaper slide-in KT74 doesn't?

Confused. All either box offers me is a nicer return on ATC scopes, and admission to FL180 after 2020? Neither will get me traffic and WX info displayed on the 530 screen?
I currently use a Dual XGPS170 to display weather, and the occasional traffic, on the iPad. It receives 978-returns directly, and 1070 from ground stations, if I have that straight...always a dodgy premise. What I can expect is more and better ground station information, but would have to switch ADS-B receivers if I wanted it all?

Thanks for any basic concept enhancement y'all might offer!

If you want traffic and weather displayed on your 530W, install a GDL88. If you want to fly at or above 18,000 MSL install one of the Trig variants (TT31 or KT74 or ...). There is no hurry to do the latter as it only affects your ability to use the flight levels after 2020.

 

[John Collins]

They both give you TIS-A

So what does the A stand for? Anything but B?

 

[MooneyDriver78]

So what does the A stand for? Anything but B?

Once upon a time there was TIS, only available in USA and certain areas.
Then came ADS-B, which includes TIS-B, TIS became TIS-A I believe to prevent any confusion