ADS-B Dilemma for Owners of Class A-Capable Airplanes

petrolero

petrolero

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petrolero
I have been looking into ADS-B solutions recently to get my airplane updated and ready for 2020 IFR. I figured it might be time to bite the bullet and install ADS-B in/out. I was thinking it would be nice to have ABS-B in/out because I would then have traffic and FIS-B weather displayed on the GTN-750 I installed last summer. w00t and all, right? Not really.

My airplane is certified for flight in the low flight levels, and it is equipped and legal to do so... until 2020. The problem is that for flight in Class A airspace after 2020, MODE ES (ADS-B 1090ES) transponders are required. So I am required to put in some kind of ADS-B by 2020 in order to fly IFR. However, I and many other owners have a lousy dilemma to face: Install 1090ES and confine WX and traffic to the iPad which provides no aural warnings and isn't integrated with my flight path, etc. OR clip the flight levels (and some significant value!) off our altitude options (for which we paid when buying a turbo, etc).

Yeah 1090ES gets me TIS-A on the GTN-750, but TIS-A is being phased out in favor of TIS-B on the 978 UAT band. 1090 ES does not include FIS-B weather. Awesome. :no:

As I see it, 1090ES and a Stratus/Foreflight is my only real option today. It is not the end of the world, but it's a bit of a raw deal, dealt by the FAA.

Has anyone else run into this? Better yet, has anyone heard of a company working on a certified dual-band transponder!? :idea: Since 1090ES will suffice for all altitudes after 2020, I imagine such a box would receive dual band and transmit only 1090. :doubt it:
 
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petrolero said:
I have been looking into ADS-B solutions recently to get my airplane updated and ready for 2020 IFR. I figured it might be time to bite the bullet and install ADS-B in/out. I was thinking it would be nice to have ABS-B in/out because I would then have traffic and FIS-B weather displayed on the GTN-750 I installed last summer. w00t and all, right? Not really.

My airplane is certified for flight in the low flight levels, and it is equipped and legal to do so... until 2020. The problem is that for flight in Class A airspace after 2020, MODE ES (ADS-B 1090ES) transponders are required. So I am required to put in some kind of ADS-B by 2020 in order to fly IFR. However, I and many other owners have a lousy dilemma to face: Install 1090ES and confine WX and traffic to the iPad which provides no aural warnings and isn't integrated with my flight path, etc. OR clip the flight levels (and some significant value!) off our altitude options (for which we paid when buying a turbo, etc).

Yeah 1090ES gets me TIS-A on the GTN-750, but TIS-A is being phased out in favor of TIS-B on the 978 UAT band. 1090 ES does not include FIS-B weather. Awesome. :no:

As I see it, 1090ES and a Stratus/Foreflight is my only real option today. It is not the end of the world, but it's a bit of a raw deal, dealt by the FAA.

Has anyone else run into this? Better yet, has anyone heard of a company working on a certified dual-band transponder!? :idea: Since 1090ES will suffice for all altitudes after 2020, I imagine such a box would receive dual band and transmit only 1090. :doubt it:
Click to expand...

First post..... Welcome to POA.... :cheers:..

My take on ADS-B is, it is nothing more then a positive tracking device so the guvmint can send you a bill at the end of the month... Can you say USER FEE..???:idea::yesnod:
 
N801BH said:
First post..... Welcome to POA.... :cheers:..

My take on ADS-B is, it is nothing more then a positive tracking device so the guvmint can send you a bill at the end of the month... Can you say USER FEE..???:idea::yesnod:
Click to expand...

If there is money to be stolen, they will try.
 
N801BH said:
First post..... Welcome to POA.... :cheers:..

My take on ADS-B is, it is nothing more then a positive tracking device so the guvmint can send you a bill at the end of the month... Can you say USER FEE..???:idea::yesnod:
Click to expand...

It is going to be like a toll fee on cars but more expensive. If they have it on cars why not on airplanes.

José
 
What's wrong with using 1090 for "out" and 978 for "in"?

Personally, I would not equip a plane with 978 out. The rest of the world is on 1090 and you won't be able to fly internationally with only 978 at some point.

978 vs. 1090 is going to turn out like Betamax and VHS I think.
 
I wouldn't do it yet. It is 5 1/2 years out, and no one is really doing it yet. LIke all things FAA, the dates are likely to slip some...
 
I would recommend that you install a GDL88 with your current GTN. It won't handle the 2020 mandate for the above 18000, but you have more than 5 years until then. That will cost around $4500 installed and give you weather and traffic on your GTN. Somewhere between now and 2020, you would have to upgrade your transponder to mode S ES to enable flight into the flight levels. If it were me, I would install a Trig TT31 or one of the variants such as the HBK KT74. That will cost an extra $2500.
 
dans2992 said:
What's wrong with using 1090 for "out" and 978 for "in"?

Personally, I would not equip a plane with 978 out. The rest of the world is on 1090 and you won't be able to fly internationally with only 978 at some point.

978 vs. 1090 is going to turn out like Betamax and VHS I think.
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I think the international argument is not valid unless you plan of flying in the high flight levels. So far only Canada has a requirement above FL290 in the Hudson Bay area. If your flying in this hemisphere, you are not going to encounter any ADS-B requirement that affect GA below FL250 except in the US.
 
Piloto said:
It is going to be like a toll fee on cars but more expensive. If they have it on cars why not on airplanes.

José
Click to expand...

Assuming you agree with toll fees on cars to begin with, I guess that logic works.

I will literally burn twenty dollars of gas to avoid a five dollar bridge fee, just out of principle. Same with paid parking. I'll walk five city blocks before I'll pump quarters into a machine or pay a parking garage. Not because I'm cheap, I just hate that crap.
 
Can you say "Giant Useless Government cluster****, boys and girls? Sure. I knew you could!"

e9y3e5av.jpg
 
My transponder is busticated for the second time and boy would I like a 2020 compliant replacement. Good luck getting one that isn't more than the hull value of my aircraft. I should probably just put an "INOPERATIVE" sticker on the thing and stay clear of controlled airspace.
 
John Collins said:
I think the international argument is not valid unless you plan of flying in the high flight levels. So far only Canada has a requirement above FL290 in the Hudson Bay area. If your flying in this hemisphere, you are not going to encounter any ADS-B requirement that affect GA below FL250 except in the US.
Click to expand...


True right now, but at some point I'm thinking Canada/Mexico may follow the US down that trail.
 
dans2992 said:
True right now, but at some point I'm thinking Canada/Mexico may follow the US down that trail.
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Maybe, but that is a long way off. There aren't even announced plans much less a hint that they will be requiring this equipment. Maybe in 20 years?
 
John Collins said:
I would recommend that you install a GDL88 with your current GTN. It won't handle the 2020 mandate for the above 18000, but you have more than 5 years until then. That will cost around $4500 installed and give you weather and traffic on your GTN. Somewhere between now and 2020, you would have to upgrade your transponder to mode S ES to enable flight into the flight levels. If it were me, I would install a Trig TT31 or one of the variants such as the HBK KT74. That will cost an extra $2500.
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Agreed, that's why I did for my Mooney. It was well under $4,500 I think. I paired with the installation of a GTN 650 (which was well over $4,500), and Garmin also was running a rebate (on the GTN 650 and GDL 88). All in all very happy with the GDL 88, which makes me 2020-compliant, gets me "free" traffic and weather on the GTN 650, and gets me priority handling if I need an IFR clearance, etc.

The service ceiling on my Mooney M20J is 19,000, so I figure I wasn't giving up much (just 1,000 feet in Class A), but I never get that high anyways, max I've done is 14K or 15K since I'm non-turbo piston. Also, while I do make occasional trips to Canada and Mexico, neither have any plans to mandate 1090 ADS-B. So not sure why doing a 978 Mhz ADS-B would prevent international trips at all.
 
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How does having ADS-B out get you "priority handling?"
 
dans2992 said:
True right now, but at some point I'm thinking Canada/Mexico may follow the US down that trail.
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Mexico will go only if the US donates the equipment.:yes:

José
 
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petrolero said:
http://www.bendixking.com/Products/...on/ADS-B-Certified-Transceivers-Receivers/KGX

I think Bendix-King has solved the high-flyer 1090/987 dilemma. I can add a KGX 130 with 987 UAT IN to the 1090 ES xpdr that I will have to buy. That allows me to throw the ADS-B goodies onto my GTN display.

It isn't the single-box, dual-band solution I'd like, but their solution is actually more flexible in the end.
Click to expand...

I think that the best way to get ADS-B In on your GTN is to install a GDL88. The BK KGX appears to be nothing but a rebadged FreeFlight RANGR box, which only does UAT, so you would lose air-to-air traffic reception on 1090MHz.

It's really, really sad that BK has resorted to simply rebadging equipment from other manufacturers, and reportedly has a sales staff completely disconnected from the products they sell. Seems like a betrayal to the history of King Radio.


JKG
 
JGoodish said:
I think that the best way to get ADS-B In on your GTN is to install a GDL88. The BK KGX appears to be nothing but a rebadged FreeFlight RANGR box, which only does UAT, so you would lose air-to-air traffic reception on 1090MHz.

It's really, really sad that BK has resorted to simply rebadging equipment from other manufacturers, and reportedly has a sales staff completely disconnected from the products they sell. Seems like a betrayal to the history of King Radio.


JKG
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My understanding is that the GDL-88 is also UAT only (unless Garmin announced something I haven't heard about) so it would preclude Class A flight.

You are correct that the KGX is UAT-only but the nice thing about it is that one of the cheaper options is for a UAT "in" only. Combine that with the 1090 ES box that I will have to install anyway and that should get me 1090 ES in and out and UAT in to receive FIS-B and TIS-B on my GTN.

I really wish someone could put all this into a single dual-band box tho.
 
petrolero said:
My understanding is that the GDL-88 is also UAT only (unless Garmin announced something I haven't heard about) so it would preclude Class A flight.

You are correct that the KGX is UAT-only but the nice thing about it is that one of the cheaper options is for a UAT "in" only. Combine that with the 1090 ES box that I will have to install anyway and that should get me 1090 ES in and out and UAT in to receive FIS-B and TIS-B on my GTN.

I really wish someone could put all this into a single dual-band box tho.
Click to expand...

The GDL88 is UAT Out, but both 978 and 1090 In. You would still need the ES transponder for flight into Class A airspace, but the GDL will likely provide better integration with the GTN.

I don't know how BK is pricing the KGX units, but I believe the FreeFlight units are around the same price as the GDL88.


JKG
 
Are you sure this is government screw up or did the AEA members just want to sell more boxes and lobbied the current reg?
 
My installation of the Garmin 88 ended up costing 8K because my transponder could not be upgraded. When ForeFlight and the Garmin app came up with their ADS_B In solutions I went to Wing X, FlyQ EFB and Skyradar. Being tied into a single hardware device is not a solution I support. I will let my ForeFlight subscription terminate after this cycle. I use ForeFlight for weather below 2K feet but I have replaced that function with MyRadar Pro on my phone for cellular weather. If I was starting over, I would not purchase the SkyRadar ADS_B In product because of all the wires and the necessity to plug into the cigarette lighter or the brick battery I purchased for a backup.
 
Just get a cheap used older mode C and keep your purse strings closed till the mandate is close. Guessing they'll change some things up before then anyways.
 
I'm with the Whoa, hold on! crowd. I mean 5 1/2 years - this ain't gonna sneak up on you.
 
winrose46 said:
My installation of the Garmin 88 ended up costing 8K because my transponder could not be upgraded. When ForeFlight and the Garmin app came up with their ADS_B In solutions I went to Wing X, FlyQ EFB and Skyradar. Being tied into a single hardware device is not a solution I support. I will let my ForeFlight subscription terminate after this cycle. I use ForeFlight for weather below 2K feet but I have replaced that function with MyRadar Pro on my phone for cellular weather. If I was starting over, I would not purchase the SkyRadar ADS_B In product because of all the wires and the necessity to plug into the cigarette lighter or the brick battery I purchased for a backup.
Click to expand...

Based on recent quotes that I've received, the GDL88 shouldn't cost anywhere near $8k. No transponder upgrades are necessary, assuming your current transponder outputs Mode C and you're not planning to operate in Class A airspace.

In my opinion, the "app locked" portable offerings for ADS-B In from Garmin and ForeFlight are still the best and most cost-effective solutions on the market for display of ADS-B In weather and traffic products. There is little point in buying hardware that is app-independent, but which won't work with the two leading apps.


JKG
 
JGoodish said:
The GDL88 is UAT Out, but both 978 and 1090 In. You would still need the ES transponder for flight into Class A airspace, but the GDL will likely provide better integration with the GTN.

I don't know how BK is pricing the KGX units, but I believe the FreeFlight units are around the same price as the GDL88.


JKG
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I was looking hard at the GDL-88 until I saw that it would clip me out of A airspace. Non-starter now, unfortunately, because it definitely does interface well with the GTN.

The RANGR devices do look the same as the BK boxes. It even offers the wi-fi output as an option. But do they have a license agreement with Garmin to use their proprietary output format? That is the dirty little secret of Garmin nav boxes. I know that BK and Trig have an agreement with Garmin and are actively working to get their transponder STCs expanded to include the GTN and GNS navs.

I wonder how it prices compared to the BK box. I think I saw that the low end for the BK box was $1500 MSRP for the UAT "in" only option. That gets the F/TIS-B products on the GTN. I have to decide if that is worth the price.
 
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JGoodish said:
Based on recent quotes that I've received, the GDL88 shouldn't cost anywhere near $8k. No transponder upgrades are necessary, assuming your current transponder outputs Mode C and you're not planning to operate in Class A airspace.
Click to expand...
He needs an altitude source, his old transponder probably didn't provide necessary output to feed the GDL-88.
 
petrolero said:
I was looking hard at the GDL-88 until I saw that it would clip me out of A airspace. Non-starter now, unfortunately, because it definitely does interface well with the GTN.

The RANGR devices do look the same as the BK boxes. It even offers the wi-fi output as an option. But do they have a license agreement with Garmin to use their proprietary output format? That is the dirty little secret of Garmin nav boxes. I know that BK and Trig have an agreement with Garmin and are actively working to get their transponder STCs expanded to include the GTN and GNS navs.

I wonder how it prices compared to the BK box. I think I saw that the low end for the BK box was $1500 MSRP for the UAT "in" only option. That gets the F/TIS-B products on the GTN. I have to decide if that is worth the price.
Click to expand...

Trig would probably like to have an agreement with Garmin, but their STC support is without an agreement with Garmin as they have had to reverse engineer it.
 
teejayevans said:
He needs an altitude source, his old transponder probably didn't provide necessary output to feed the GDL-88.
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That's why I said, "assuming your current transponder outputs Mode C." There is no wired interface necessary for the GDL88 to obtain altitude information from an operable Mode C transponder, as it will interrogate the transponder over RF.

If he needed a new transponder + encoder, then he didn't pay $8k for the GDL88, he paid $8k for a solution which included a GDL88.


JKG
 
petrolero said:
I was looking hard at the GDL-88 until I saw that it would clip me out of A airspace. Non-starter now, unfortunately, because it definitely does interface well with the GTN.
Click to expand...

The GDL88 doesn't impact your ability to operate in Class A one way or the other. Whether you put in a GDL88 or a UAT In box, you'll still need the 1090ES Out capability for Class A. You likely won't get a full-featured interface (or any interface at all) with a GTN from a non-Garmin box, in which case the portable receivers may make more sense.

Garmin now has the FlightStream units which will provide Bluetooth capability to the GDL88 and GTN, but they are locked to the Garmin Pilot app.

There is a rumor that perhaps ForeFlight will introduce support for the FreeFlight box, though their Stratus partner Appareo apparently plans to enter the certified ADS-B market in the near future. It will be interesting to see how that plays out, but it appears that there isn't a material difference in flexibility between installed versus portable ADS-B In solutions at the moment.


JKG
 
Silvaire said:
I'm with the Whoa, hold on! crowd. I mean 5 1/2 years - this ain't gonna sneak up on you.
Click to expand...

The only problem is that even if every avionics shop in the country started doing nothing but ADS-B installs today, they wouldn't even come close to finishing the GA fleet by 2020. The "wait-and-see" types aren't going to be able to get a slot in the shop in 2019.

I'm not equipped yet, but I'll be doing it a lot closer to 2015 than 2020.
 
JGoodish said:
Based on recent quotes that I've received, the GDL88 shouldn't cost anywhere near $8k. No transponder upgrades are necessary, assuming your current transponder outputs Mode C and you're not planning to operate in Class A airspace.

In my opinion, the "app locked" portable offerings for ADS-B In from Garmin and ForeFlight are still the best and most cost-effective solutions on the market for display of ADS-B In weather and traffic products. There is little point in buying hardware that is app-independent, but which won't work with the two leading apps.


JKG
Click to expand...
The 88 was north of 4K and other hardware, because my garmin transponder was not upgradeable, I had to purchase additional hardware and the total cost including installation was a little more than 8K. I use multiple apps because in my 40 years of system software experience (assembly language, mainframe system programmer and PC software developer, an now a computer security auditor), I always expect an application to fail, especially iPad applications. I have not been disappointed and I have had multiple app failures from Foreflight, WingX Pro, FlyQEfb, My WingMan, Skyradar and the garmin app. Being able to switch between apps and quickly bring up another one when the app display freezes or restarts is paramount for me in an airplane. After my iPad 3 turned off due to overheating while on an approach into Erie PA, I immediately purchased an iPad Mini just as a back up. When I teach instrument students, they are using the iPad and I am using the mini with two separate ADS_B IN devices in addition to the GDL 88 voice alerts. I can not justify based on my experience with these devices to be limited to a single ADS_B In device or a single software application. My recent 7 hour trip from KDAL to KFDK, I had multiple app failures and I was quickly able to switch devices or software. My TSO 430 device I do have faith in but it to is backed up with a handheld device.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
The only problem is that even if every avionics shop in the country started doing nothing but ADS-B installs today, they wouldn't even come close to finishing the GA fleet by 2020. The "wait-and-see" types aren't going to be able to get a slot in the shop in 2019.

I'm not equipped yet, but I'll be doing it a lot closer to 2015 than 2020.
Click to expand...
irrelevant. The number of airplanes that will ever be equipped is a subset of "the fleet"
 
JHW said:
irrelevant. The number of airplanes that will ever be equipped is a subset of "the fleet"
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True, but a much larger subset of the fleet than we'll be able to have equipped by 2020.

Kinda like the mad dash for RVSM, times 10000.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
True, but a much larger subset of the fleet than we'll be able to have equipped by 2020.

Kinda like the mad dash for RVSM, times 10000.
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assumes facts not in evidence. i have eno facts either, but I'll bet that the percentage of planes that get a panel-mounted solution will be pretty small.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
The only problem is that even if every avionics shop in the country started doing nothing but ADS-B installs today, they wouldn't even come close to finishing the GA fleet by 2020. The "wait-and-see" types aren't going to be able to get a slot in the shop in 2019.

I'm not equipped yet, but I'll be doing it a lot closer to 2015 than 2020.
Click to expand...

Hogwash

Installing a transponder isn't a huge task, and sure not rocket surgery.

I'll wait for prices to come down, the Feds to finish making up their minds and then pick up a good xpdr and have my good APIA friend install it that week.
 
winrose46 said:
The 88 was north of 4K and other hardware, because my garmin transponder was not upgradeable, I had to purchase additional hardware and the total cost including installation was a little more than 8K.
Click to expand...

I'm still confused about what "upgrade" was required to the transponder, and what other hardware was purchased. Did you not have a Mode C transponder?

And, on what equipment are you displaying the data from the GDL88? It sounds like perhaps a GNS430.

Having tried many of the aviation apps for the iPad, I have never had one fail in a way that a quick relaunch did not recover. I've also found ForeFlight to be the most stable, and frankly cannot remember the last time that it crashed. I've never had an issue with Stratus either, but have had the full-sized iPad overheat when in a case, in the sun, and charging, all at the same time. Removing it from the case has always resolved that issue.


JKG
 
James331 said:
Hogwash

Installing a transponder isn't a huge task, and sure not rocket surgery.

I'll wait for prices to come down, the Feds to finish making up their minds and then pick up a good xpdr and have my good APIA friend install it that week.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what minds you don't think are made up with respect to the FAA. It seems as though they've affirmed the mandate and the date several times now, including again recently. The ground systems are deployed, and the commercial operators are or will be using the technology by the 2020 date. I'm not saying that things can't or won't change, but I'm also not seeing any evidence that they will.

While equipment prices may come down some, I think it's a pipe dream that non-certified systems (where the real savings would be) will ever be approved to meet the mandate.

I agree that Cheese is perhaps overstating the installation challenge, but complying with the mandate is a little more than just sliding a transponder into the panel. I don't know that I'd want to wait until summer or fall of 2019 to have the install done, but I do think that if you're having a transponder replaced now anyway, it may make sense to consider complying with the mandate.


JKG
 
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