ADS-B decision

Discussion in 'Avionics and Upgrades' started by MountainDude, Feb 28, 2019.

  1. MountainDude

    MountainDude Pre-Flight

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    We have 10 months left and must install ADS-B before the deadline.
    We have a 1966 C-182, with mostly original equipment.
    Should we go with SkyBeacon (how much is it installed?), GDL-82 ($3,800 installed), or wait for something else?
    While I don't have any immediate plans to fly through Mexico, definitely have plans to fly through Canada and the Caribbean in the next 2 years.
    Thank you
     
  2. 455 Bravo Uniform

    455 Bravo Uniform En-Route PoA Supporter

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    I don’t think there’s too much else to wait for if you need it where you fly starting Jan 1 2020.

    I think they’re saying Canada will be 2021. I read they were also considering an exemption to allow 978 in some of the border areas (I guess you could wait for that to progress).

    Mexico 2020 and 1090, above 10k ft.

    Looks like you need 1090. Skybeacon is not it.

    I’m going with AXP340 next week (already arrived). Supposed to be a plug & play for KT76A and 78A, if that’s what you have.
     
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  3. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Caribbean, and probably Canada, will need 1090, not just 978. That rules out both the GDL-82 and the Skybeacon.

    Probably the best option, if you want to be able to travel outside the ConUS in your plane, is the Garmin GTX-335 with internal GPS, which can currently be had for under $3K but will require installation since you're replacing your transponder. If you don't like Garmin, the Stratus ESG is very similar (1090 + internal GPS).

    I'm not aware of any 1090 options that use your existing transponder.

    EDIT: As far as waiting is concerned - Forget it. The deadline is only 9 months away, and a significant portion of the fleet has already upgraded. I highly doubt we'll see any significant new developments in ADS-B hardware any time soon.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2019
  4. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    But unless I misunderstand, the AXP340 requires an external WAAS GPS feed to be provided for it. If you already have a WAAS GPS in the panel, great... But if not, either you need to add one (at a much greater expense) or use one of the ones that can have a WAAS GPS built in (like the GTX 335 or Stratus ESG).
     
  5. MBDiagMan

    MBDiagMan En-Route

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    604AA18C-0281-4F82-ABAA-99A4F9B6DC4D.jpeg F00907E3-7C3E-41D3-A46D-CB7D5A625B5C.jpeg The GTX345 was the no brainer choice for the /G Mooney and cost a ton. For my little Cessna 140, I got a deal on a Stratus. ESG with 3i. This gives me compliance out and IN on the IPad. Once a friend was offering it to me for a great price, I started investigating and found that even if it would have been full price at $2,995 which includes WAAS antenna. it would have been the ideal choice.

    As you can see this isn’t your Granffathers 140 panel.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2019
  6. Huckster79

    Huckster79 Line Up and Wait

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    Will it be the same in Canada as it is here, as in if you can avoid controlled airspace - not required. I’m planning on skipping it for now, Just don’t see the need for my type of flying... but the airport gang is talking about flying to Alaska not this summer but next, I’d love to go with em...
     
  7. ahypnoz

    ahypnoz Pre-takeoff checklist

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    To add to the controversy if you want to fly in Canada you might need “diversity,” I.e. both a top and a bottom transponder antenna, in addition to the adsb.

    Some people say that having just the bottom antenna might be good enough, and you might not need the top antenna, because it is almost as good. I do not know what to believe.

    I would get the skyBeacon (978) for $1859 to be USA compliant by 2020, then in a couple of years when Canada figures out what they might do, upgrade to the 1090 and install your second antenna if needed.

    If you buy the new transponder now, can it accept a second transponder antenna?

    There is even a chance that Canada might accept the 978 as 455 Bravo Uniform has stated. But I am unsure about that as well.

    The skyBeacon cost is $1859, plus 1/2 hour of A&P shop time ($50) to install and $180 for the 337 form to be filled out. Moreover, there is no down (shop) time for the plane during the install and u can get your $500 dollar faa rebate check back, if eligible. Plus a real faa approved, red led navigation light and a led strobe light on your wing.


    From the AOPA:

    “AOPA’s senior director of airspace, air traffic, and aviation security, has been following the process closely. “The requirements are not 100 percent as [Nav Canada officials] are still finalizing their report, which then must go to Transport Canada for rulemaking,” he said. “We probably will see something official this fall.”

    “Nav Canada is requiring a minimum transmit power of 125 watts, which matches the U.S. requirement,” he said. Canada originally said it was going to require diversity—meaning a transponder antenna on top of the airplane, as well as on the bottom, to facilitate reception by the Aireon satellites high overhead—but it is conducting further testing on the diversity requirement based on user feedback”

    Mike
     
  8. 455 Bravo Uniform

    455 Bravo Uniform En-Route PoA Supporter

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    I think you’re correct, it needs a GPS position source, so that would eliminate it as a standalone option for the OP.
     
  9. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach

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    None of us need worry about ADS-B Out in Canada for quite awhile. NavCanada (the organization that runs the ATC system) is pushing it. Transport Canada (the Federal regulator) is lukewarm, at best. Two years ago Transport said it would be "at least ten years". The big push in Canada is going to be for flight safety and SAR in remote regions. That's why the top mount antenna...Transport wants satellite, not ground station as the FAA went.
     
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  10. idahoflier

    idahoflier Line Up and Wait

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    If you're in a must install situation you may want to start by getting a slot at an avionics shop. I recently inquired about a GPS installation and told by a somewhat local shop that their backlog was 70 aircraft and they were turning away 3 - 5 a week for any work. Please check back next year. If the rest of the country is in a similar situation the SkyBeacon may be your only viable choice...
     
  11. Jim_CAK

    Jim_CAK Pre-takeoff checklist PoA Supporter

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    lynx-ngt-9000plus.png
    Also look at the Lynx. It is also a "all in one box" transponder with a GPS signal. It has a built in LCD screen that displays all the ADS-B "in" products right on your panel. I had been flying with portable ADS-B in on my iPad for a while but I much prefer traffic and weather on the panel. It changes your transponder from a box that just takes up space in the panel to a useful piece of avionics.
     
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  12. IK04

    IK04 Cleared for Takeoff

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    The only ADS-B solution I like is the Lynx. Too bad it costs over $8,000 installed...
     
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  13. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Can be done for less. I should be around/under $7000. But it beats having a Garmin POS.
     
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  14. NordicDave

    NordicDave Line Up and Wait

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    +1 for the Lynx in your situation, which includes a diversity option from the factory. -1 if you are deep in Canada and cannot get the FIS-B traffic & weather data on 978mhz.

    BTW, skyBeacon only outputs less than 22 watts well under the Canadian 125 watt requirement.

    If budget is a concern, look hard at Garmin GTX-335 which is 1080mhz output at 240 watts. . It's a complete kit for $2995 list price. Your transponder is ancient and likely needs upgrading at some point sooner than later.
     
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  15. murphey

    murphey Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Everyone who is a Garmin dealer. The price and special is fromGarmin, not the individual vendor.
     
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  16. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The Lynx is a nice box, no doubt... But two things kept us from getting one:

    1) Can't display the weather from it on a Garmin GPS (and it was the L-3 guy who told us that). :(

    2) Transponders tend to be mounted low in the radio stack, while to get the advantages of a nice screen like this, you want it up high. That probably means reshuffling the whole stack.

    If none of that causes you an issue, go for it. It's a nice box, just expensive, so probably not what the OP wants.
     
  17. Flybuddy

    Flybuddy Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Don't forget the Stratus ESG, it's reasonable at 2995 (2495 if you have waas gps already) and it's 1090. There's a shop in Florida installing the $2995 unit for about $3200 complete.
     
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  18. Jim_CAK

    Jim_CAK Pre-takeoff checklist PoA Supporter

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    6BC38183-88F5-4606-90A4-CB262F107FD0.jpeg
    Not displaying weather on the Garmin is a Garmin “closed shop” policy. The Lynx displays traffic and weather on the Avidyne. It is one of the reasons we migrated away from Garmin. You are right about moving things around
    in the stack with the screen on the transponder. We moved the #2 Nav/com down and promoted the transponder up just under the IFD.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2019
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  19. sourdough44

    sourdough44 Pattern Altitude

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    I just put in a deposit on the Stratus ESG 3i. The two shops were about 4+ months out to get work done. Mine will go in with a June annual.

    I decided to just go with the basics at this time, still recovering from a bunch of engine & airframe work. I did consider the Lynxx, several mentioned & like it. I need a new transponder, don’t have anything WAAS, but my kx-155 is a later serial number & in fine shape.

    I had some ideas of duel G5s, a GTN & other goodies, but it seemed like one thing($) after another. I’ll just get my stratus & take another breather.
     

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  20. kyleb

    kyleb En-Route PoA Supporter

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    I've boiled down to the Stratus ESG or the uAvionics EchoUAT. The UAT will be less expensive, but my Txp is pushing 20 years old, so if I go with the UAT, there's the risk that the Txp dies tomorrow and I have to figure all of this out again.
     
  21. 455 Bravo Uniform

    455 Bravo Uniform En-Route PoA Supporter

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    For folks worrying about their old legacy TX going out after committing to the Skybeacon, I would think there is a high stack of old working transponders that were pulled out due to ADSB that you could just buy cheap and swap in.
     
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  22. patrick wentworth

    patrick wentworth Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Just swapped in a 76c for my still working ancient 76a. $350 for the 76c and I still have my 76c if it fails. Tail beacon on order ... just another way to go.
     
  23. MBDiagMan

    MBDiagMan En-Route

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    Great point! I have a King KT76 from the Mooney And soon to have a Narco AT150 from the Cessna on the shelf both in operational condition. I’m sure these are on shelves in hangars and shop shelves everywhere by now. For those on really tight budgets, the SkyBeacon is a decent alternative. If you have a little more money to step up some, the Stratus ESG with 3i will give you pushbutton sqwauk entry plus IN on the IPad.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2019
  24. Mtns2Skies

    Mtns2Skies Super Moderator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    Where on Earth did you get that number? The GDL82 costs $1700 (with free WAAS antenna) and requires about 4 hours to install it.
     
  25. kyleb

    kyleb En-Route PoA Supporter

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    You're right. But all of those are old too...

    Just like anything else, you pays your money and takes your chances.
     
  26. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Are you light sport or experimental? The EchoUAT is not certified, and I don't think they have any plans to.
     
  27. kyleb

    kyleb En-Route PoA Supporter

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    RV-6, baybee!
     
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  28. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    We already sold the GTX 327 we pulled out when we installed the 345 - If you want an upgrade to a nice push-button transponder, now is an excellent time for that as well.
     
  29. MountainDude

    MountainDude Pre-Flight

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    Santa Fe Aero at KSAF.
     
  30. MBDiagMan

    MBDiagMan En-Route

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    Just because it’s old doesn’t mean failure is imminent. If it does fail operational replacements will be laying around everywhere. If any of the guys at my airport have a failure of a KT76 or AT150, they will get an operational replacement from me at no cost.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2019
  31. chemgeek

    chemgeek Line Up and Wait

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    Mine was $7k installed. Look around for dealers.
     
  32. Groundpounder

    Groundpounder Line Up and Wait

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    Reasonable facsimile
    The new airplane has a KT-76A, I think we're going to replace it with an Avidyne AXP340, since its a slide in replacement for the KT, and we already have a WAAS GPS. Not sure what we're going to do for ADS-B in quite yet. Bought a Sentry ADS-B in box, but I would like something hard wired.
     
  33. Mtns2Skies

    Mtns2Skies Super Moderator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    Well for me it was $1800 installed. I find it to be a great solution for UAT ADSB out domestically.
     
  34. Mtns2Skies

    Mtns2Skies Super Moderator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

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    Did you give your 327 to Pete? If so, I'm about 85% sure your 327 was installed in my plane.
     
  35. 150Driver

    150Driver Filing Flight Plan

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    You (anyone) can buy the GTX335 promo kit direct from Spruce.
     
  36. Jim_CAK

    Jim_CAK Pre-takeoff checklist PoA Supporter

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    It should definitely be under $7k. We paid $4700 for the Lynx. We had a bunch of other work done - Replace the GNS430 with the IFD, remove an old Bendix King gps, change the order of the avionics, replace the intercom, got the 24 month PStat check. I cant tell what the labor for the transponder alone was - but my guess was it would be less than 6k out the door. I can’t over emphasize - Having ADS-B in traffic and weather on a screen in the panel is much nicer than just the iPad. I feel like we significantly upgraded the avionics vs just flushed money just to comply with the mandate.

    @EdFred - If your interested - I can get you in touch with the shop (but then you would have to land in Ohio ;) )
     
  37. IK04

    IK04 Cleared for Takeoff

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    Does anyone else make a system like the GDL-82? I can't see paying for something that costs half a s much as my airplane cost...
     
  38. Punkinhead

    Punkinhead Pre-Flight

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    Mine was $1850 installed because I did it myself, as can anyone who can use a screwdriver and has 10 minutes available. It'll go down by $500 once my FAA rebate check arrives. I suppose it'll cost me another $3 as payment for filing the STC next time I see my IA at the local restaurant and buy him a beer. So, all in, $1353.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2019
  39. weirdjim

    weirdjim En-Route

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    And you can get the Stratus ESG for a $grand less than that. PM me for info.

    Yes, shops are backed up a bunch. Any A&P that knows which end of the soldering iron gets hot can install the ESG in two, three hours max. That's for the first one. One, two hours max after that. Shop not necessary.

    Jim
     
  40. Jim_CAK

    Jim_CAK Pre-takeoff checklist PoA Supporter

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