ADHD Disqualifying

[poadeleted20]

Ron appears to like to live in a world where the population is in fear of the bureaucracy. I choose not to live my life with such fear, and advise others to do the same.

Ron, when you can point to specific case law where civil or criminal punishment was applied with respect to failure to reveal a childhood diagnosis that was not demonstrably intentionally withheld, we'll talk.

I'm just telling (as Bruce did in his post quoted just above Jeff's) what the rules are and what the FAA's policy is. If you want to ignore that, go right ahead. Most likely, you'll be OK. But as Bruce, too, pointed out, it's not guaranteed.

But consider this: I'm quite sure Jeff will not be willing to monetarily indemnify anyone who ends up on the short end of that stick, but it doesn't take a lot of work to research your own childhood medical records and if you can't find them, it's most unlikely the FAA can, either.

Choose wisely.

-30-

 

[Jeff Oslick]

But consider this: I'm quite sure Jeff will not be willing to monetarily indemnify anyone who ends up on the short end of that stick, but it doesn't take a lot of work to research your own childhood medical records and if you can't find them, it's most unlikely the FAA can, either.

That's probably a weak attempt to attack the validity of my position, but you still have no case law to cite.

By the time the FAA is investigating your juvenile medical records, you've probably gotten yourself in pretty deep due to a cause that has nothing to do with what is in those records, and they'll have other fish they want to fry with you.

 

[jspilot]

Having went through this twice with both my kids, in a 'proactive' school district, I want to warn parents. You must be even more proactive when it comes to your kids. If ANYONE in a school district ever in any context uses ADD or ADHD with respect your your children do not let it slide. Make absolutely sure it is not in their school records. This is even more critical now that all records are digital, and they never, ever go away.

A 'diagnosis' can only be done by someone with an MD behind their name. But - even without an MD, discussion or record-keeping that even indicates this with or without any medical evidence is very serious. For me, it required the visit of a private atty to get the school district to see things the right way. They were very aggressive with their amateur diagnosis because they were incented by the state dept of schools, and maybe the feds to get as many ADD/ADHD diagnosis as possible. It increased funding for the particular school because these kids are now considered with a learning disability and said disability carried extra funding per child.

I don't want anyone to not care for a child who shows serious learning or focus issues, but I would be very, very careful going down the ADD/ADHD road. And even more careful about any notes, or records kept. It can be devastating later on in life.

If anyone cares at this point, neither of my kids has any attention or learning problems. They are both graduating from college early, and will have very productive lives. One is working on the PPL, and the other may do that later.

Great advice and spot on in all areas! It troubles me that some schools are labeling students with ADD without a medical diagnoses. It's horrible practice and is borderline unethical! I can tell you it does not go on in the school where I teach and I take this kind of thing very seriously!

 

[Palmpilot]

Great advice and spot on in all areas! It troubles me that some schools are labeling students with ADD without a medical diagnoses. It's horrible practice and is borderline unethical! I can tell you it does not go on in the school where I teach and I take this kind of thing very seriously!

If it's entered into a student's records without a medical diagnosis, could it be considered libelous?

 

[Henning]

If it's entered into a student's records without a medical diagnosis, could it be considered libelous?

Up to a jury to decide, but if one could show damages I think it would be worth a shot.

 

[N801BH]

If it's entered into a student's records without a medical diagnosis, could it be considered libelous?

I would say... 100% YES.....

To JS, the teacher....

Who has access to kids records ?

 

[jspilot]

I would say... 100% YES.....

To JS, the teacher....

Who has access to kids records ?

Student records are largely confidential and only school faculty like teachers or school psychologists and administrators can view the records.

If their are teachers out there entering diagnosis of ADD into records without medical proof than they are acting out of line. Teachers can't label kids. When asked, we fill out evaluation forms that are then sent to doctors and most psychologists and psychiatrists who use our data to help make a diagnosis if they deem it proper.

 

[JHW]

Student records are largely confidential and only school faculty like teachers or school psychologists and administrators can view the records...

maybe not as confidential as you would like. There were several school board meetings where board members proposed to open up a kids records to review an expulsion. I was the lone voice saying that we already had all the pertinent facts, that I had no business seeing the kid's file, and I would excuse myself from the remainder of the meeting if the files were opened. It's amazing how people's view's change when you accusing them of snooping in front of the gallery.

 

[RJM62]

I'm a teacher and work with kids with ADD each and every day. This infuriates me that ADD is considered a DQ by the FAA. It is absolutely not something that should prevent anyone from doing anything they want to. Given how over used the label is and how often it is thrown around it is compeltley not an issue to most if not all kids once they learn to manage their issue.

Honestly the whole medical process the FAA uses is borderline abusive and certainly seems to infringe on the rights of pilots and citizens alike. I would gladly fly with anyone who has ADD and would have not even a second thought if the Captain of my commercial flight came on and said, " this is your Captain Speeking. I have ADD and wanted you to know that we are about to begin our push back from the gate."

It's just absurd.

It infuriates me that the overwhelming majority of ADD / ADHD "diagnoses" are made without using the APA protocols for same, resulting in a staggering number of bull**** diagnoses. That's more infuriating than the FAA's position that someone who has been diagnosed as having a hard time focusing his or her attention may not belong in command of an aircraft.

Luckily, the FAA does, in fact, realize that the vast majority of ADD / ADHD diagnoses are utter bull****, and therefore provides a means for debunking the laughable "diagnoses" that school shrinks all across the U. S. of A pass out like candy on Halloween.

-Rich

 

[poadeleted20]

Luckily, the FAA does, in fact, realize that the vast majority of ADD / ADHD diagnoses are utter bull****, and therefore provides a means for debunking the laughable "diagnoses" that school shrinks all across the U. S. of A pass out like candy on Halloween.

Unfortunately, the process of "debunking" that diagnosis to the FAA's satisfaction is expensive, and will not be covered by insurance.

 

[RJM62]

Unfortunately, the process of "debunking" that diagnosis to the FAA's satisfaction is expensive, and will not be covered by insurance.

I agree, Ron. My point is that the tests that the FAA requires should have been performed before the kid was diagnosed and drugged in the first place. Altogether too many of these "diagnoses" are made by school social workers and signed off by contracted physicians who are neither qualified to perform the proper tests, nor inclined to interrupt their revenue stream.

I've been through this with family members more times than I care to recall. It's downright criminal.

-Rich

 

[docmirror]

The problem with the FAA approach as I understand it is that you have to go back retroactively and prove a negative; i.e. not only do I not have it today, but I didn't have it xx years ago.

This is the kind of crap that kills GA. Aided and abetted by the 'social engineers' of modern progressivism.

 

[Matthew]

The problem with the FAA approach as I understand it is that you have to go back retroactively and prove a negative; i.e. not only do I not have it today, but I didn't have it xx years ago.

I think you have to prove you don't have it NOW. That's enough to prove you never had it at all. It's considered a lifetime disease, you either have it (and always had it) or you don't (and never did).

 

[JHW]

The problem with the FAA approach as I understand it is that you have to go back retroactively and prove a negative; i.e. not only do I not have it today, but I didn't have it xx years ago.

This is the kind of crap that kills GA. Aided and abetted by the 'social engineers' of modern progressivism.

At least with the FAA there is a path to get there. In most parts of the world there would be no point in trying. The US FAA is remarkably progressive and permissive in many ways.

 

[poadeleted20]

I think you have to prove you don't have it NOW. That's enough to prove you never had it at all. It's considered a lifetime disease, you either have it (and always had it) or you don't (and never did).

That's my understanding, too. You get a psych eval now to show you don't have the problem now. That's enough for the FAA.

 

[docmirror]

OK, so I'm reading things here, and back to getting confused. What I said was, you have to get tested to prove you don't have it. But - only some of the diagnosis continue on into adulthood. So, the FAA says you have to prove you don't have it. And if you succeed you've proven that you never had it.

Therefore, if you had it, and you don't have it now, it must be one of those things that has gone away, or you never had it in the first place. If you had it, and it's now cured, the FAA is still making you prove a negative!

 

[Matthew]

OK, so I'm reading things here, and back to getting confused. What I said was, you have to get tested to prove you don't have it. But - only some of the diagnosis continue on into adulthood. So, the FAA says you have to prove you don't have it. And if you succeed you've proven that you never had it.

Therefore, if you had it, and you don't have it now, it must be one of those things that has gone away, or you never had it in the first place. If you had it, and it's now cured, the FAA is still making you prove a negative!

I think Doc Chien has mentioned that it doesn't go away - people find ways to cope and it just looks like it's gone away. The diagnosis is still there. I don't know enough about it to know why, if someone copes to the point it appears gone, that isn't good enough. But that's the deal.

 

[RJM62]

OK, so I'm reading things here, and back to getting confused. What I said was, you have to get tested to prove you don't have it. But - only some of the diagnosis continue on into adulthood. So, the FAA says you have to prove you don't have it. And if you succeed you've proven that you never had it.

Therefore, if you had it, and you don't have it now, it must be one of those things that has gone away, or you never had it in the first place. If you had it, and it's now cured, the FAA is still making you prove a negative!

In the practical sense and in the real world, I don't know of a single person who was unsuccessful having a childhood ADD / ADHD diagnosis revoked once they went through the proper testing. The percentage of kids who are properly tested prior to being labeled and doped up is roughly zero, and the percentage of the doctors who labeled and doped them up who actually were qualified to do so isn't much higher. That makes the diagnoses easy to revoke once the proper tests are carried out.

Unfortunately, it's still a very grueling and expensive process. We're talking in the $3K to $4K range to do it the right way.

-Rich

 

[docmirror]

Seems to me that if it's true the diagnosis doesn't change or go away, once the cost of the reversal is complete, I would seek to have the original dr sued for malpractice.

 

[SoloEqs]

By the time the FAA is investigating your juvenile medical records, you've probably gotten yourself in pretty deep due to a cause that has nothing to do with what is in those records, and they'll have other fish they want to fry with you.

That's today.

Tomorrow, when everyone's medical records are in one big database, all it will take is typing in the name and SSAN to pull up everything back to your mom's first ultrasound.

Privacy? Not now that they're demanding that all records be opened for background checks if you want to buy a .22 rifle.

 

[JHW]

That's today.

Tomorrow, when everyone's medical records are in one big database, all it will take is typing in the name and SSAN to pull up everything back to your mom's first ultrasound.

Privacy? Not now that they're demanding that all records be opened for background checks if you want to buy a .22 rifle.

In IL you need a card from the state and a 24 hour wait to buy a pellet gun for your kid. I didn't think anywhere could be worse than IL, then we moved to Australia.

 

[SoloEqs]

In IL you need a card from the state and a 24 hour wait to buy a pellet gun for your kid. I didn't think anywhere could be worse than IL, then we moved to Australia.

I didn't think I'd ever see someone complaining about having left Illinois!

A friend of mine was told not long ago that her son had ADD. She had him take a small video camera to school, figuring that it would show his behavior.

She saw the video, then demanded a meeting with the teacher and the district superintendent. She played the video, then said "If I had a teacher that boring, I wouldn't be able to pay attention either!"

 

[Henning]

In IL you need a card from the state and a 24 hour wait to buy a pellet gun for your kid. I didn't think anywhere could be worse than IL, then we moved to Australia.

Hehe, yeah, now you can't ride a push-bike without a helmet.

 

[jspilot]

Just a few points of clarity here that need to be said. ADD or any learning disability never "goes away." The job of good schools is to teach students how to learn best and, as a result, most people with learning needs as students end up becoming exceptionally well suited for adulthood and are amazingly successful! I work at a school where most students have some form of a learning disability and we have had kids go on to Ivy League schools who are successful as adults. However, students are not adults so for the people using the argument that kids are "overly diagnosed" I would encourage you to try and come into a classroom where the students are truly ADD and see what behaviors are displayed. The fact remains that many kids who actually have ADD can't help it and can't control almost all their impulses. It's not their fault- their body is not producing the chemicals needed to remain calm. Many here are saying that is is overly diagnosed because the fringe child who can't behave well gets the label. That's simply not the way good schools operate- maybe it's how bad schools operate though. The process to truly get the label takes several steps of real tests. These tests evaluate mental function, not "can the kid sit still." Docotrs can't fudge the results and neither can any psychologist worth his or her weight.

The medication aspect of this discussion is brutal. I've sat through so many meetings with crying parents who are so torn on this issue. The parents dont want to drug their kid but they are often aware that if they continue to do nothing then their kid will continue to struggle in school. I take offense, as I would imagine any parent or educator who's been in these meetings with phrases like "doped up" being thrown around here! It is often a gut wrenching decision parents have to make and some truly don't ever forgive themselves for doing it. So please try and keep this on mind when discussing this part of this issue even if you have issues with schools that make you dislike them. Schools don't medicate kids, real parents who are people do!

 

[ClimbnSink]

Right and some parents embrace the drug and diagnoses extra time on tests for learning disabled johnny.

 

[poadeleted20]

OK, so I'm reading things here, and back to getting confused. What I said was, you have to get tested to prove you don't have it. But - only some of the diagnosis continue on into adulthood. So, the FAA says you have to prove you don't have it. And if you succeed you've proven that you never had it.

No, you have only proven that you don't have it now (or that its effects are not significant to flying). There's no way now to prove you didn't have it then, and the FAA doesn't care about that anyway.

Therefore, if you had it, and you don't have it now, it must be one of those things that has gone away, or you never had it in the first place.

True, but there's no way now to tell for sure which of those two possibilities it is.

If you had it, and it's now cured, the FAA is still making you prove a negative!

No, they're only making you prove that you're OK to fly now. They aren't concerned about whether or not you were misdiagnosed in the past.

 

[DavidWhite]

They (we) actually had recess time and PE at school everyday, and did free play after school instead of being shuttled around to a half dozen parent-scheduled activities.

Ding ding ding

 

[Matthew]

Seems to me that if it's true the diagnosis doesn't change or go away, once the cost of the reversal is complete, I would seek to have the original dr sued for malpractice.

I'd like to see that happen, it might cut down on the "convenience diagnoses". But medical misdiagnoses are are a fact of life, and I think true malpractice is tough to prove.

 

[N801BH]

.,..... I work at a school where most students have some form of a learning disability ..........

So please try and keep this on mind when discussing this part of this issue even if you have issues with schools that make you dislike them. Schools don't medicate kids, real parents who are people do!

I am starting to get a clear picture on why you have an opinion on this topic...

Define.............. Most Students.. I suppose you are a special Ed teacher...B)

 

[Jeff Oslick]

However, students are not adults so for the people using the argument that kids are "overly diagnosed" I would encourage you to try and come into a classroom where the students are truly ADD and see what behaviors are displayed. The fact remains that many kids who actually have ADD can't help it and can't control almost all their impulses. It's not their fault- their body is not producing the chemicals needed to remain calm.

The problem I have with the way this is handled is that educational and psychological professionals have chosen to select for what is "normal" and what is not. We deem kids who don't learn in the same way as x% of other kids as "special needs", when there is amble evidence to show that these same kids are, on average, of normal or higher intelligence. It seems to not occur to the educators (and the FAA) that maybe it is their definition of "normal" that is screwed up.

 

[Mason]

That's today.

Tomorrow, when everyone's medical records are in one big database, all it will take is typing in the name and SSAN to pull up everything back to your mom's first ultrasound.

Privacy? Not now that they're demanding that all records be opened for background checks if you want to buy a .22 rifle.

I was at my Doc last month for a routine follow-up. He was typing into a new computer system about stuff we had discussed. He was muttering a little and then he said "No, we don't want to put that in there, because then it becomes a legal record."

 

[RJM62]

Just a few points of clarity here that need to be said. ADD or any learning disability never "goes away." The job of good schools is to teach students how to learn best and, as a result, most people with learning needs as students end up becoming exceptionally well suited for adulthood and are amazingly successful! I work at a school where most students have some form of a learning disability and we have had kids go on to Ivy League schools who are successful as adults. However, students are not adults so for the people using the argument that kids are "overly diagnosed" I would encourage you to try and come into a classroom where the students are truly ADD and see what behaviors are displayed. The fact remains that many kids who actually have ADD can't help it and can't control almost all their impulses. It's not their fault- their body is not producing the chemicals needed to remain calm. Many here are saying that is is overly diagnosed because the fringe child who can't behave well gets the label. That's simply not the way good schools operate- maybe it's how bad schools operate though. The process to truly get the label takes several steps of real tests. These tests evaluate mental function, not "can the kid sit still." Docotrs can't fudge the results and neither can any psychologist worth his or her weight.

The medication aspect of this discussion is brutal. I've sat through so many meetings with crying parents who are so torn on this issue. The parents dont want to drug their kid but they are often aware that if they continue to do nothing then their kid will continue to struggle in school. I take offense, as I would imagine any parent or educator who's been in these meetings with phrases like "doped up" being thrown around here! It is often a gut wrenching decision parents have to make and some truly don't ever forgive themselves for doing it. So please try and keep this on mind when discussing this part of this issue even if you have issues with schools that make you dislike them. Schools don't medicate kids, real parents who are people do!

Take offense all you like. Humans have been educating children quite successfully long before the ADD / ADHD diagnoses existed, and long before the drugs they use to dope the kids up were invented. Somehow kids still managed to get educated -- arguable better than they do now, if literacy and mathematics competency are any measure.

My position is a simple one. Some kids really have ADHD. Most of them do not; and in the majority of cases, the diagnosis is more for the school's convenience (and the additional subsidies that it receives) than for the children's benefit.

Furthermore, all I am advocating is that the full series of diagnostic tests be performed on the these children before they're labeled and drugged, and that no subsidies be available to any school for any child who did not receive the full panel of tests. Is it unreasonable to demand that proper testing be done before doping kids up with powerful stimulants?

This whole issue is a national disgrace. We are doping a generation of kids into a stupor for the convenience and revenue of school districts.

-Rich

 

[Fearless Tower]

Furthermore, all I am advocating is that the full series of diagnostic tests be performed on the these children before they're labeled and drugged, and that no subsidies be available to any school for any child who did not receive the full panel of tests. Is it unreasonable to demand that proper testing be done before doping kids up with powerful stimulants?

I agree with what you are suggesting, Rich, but the ultimate issue is with unscrupulous members of the medical community and not the schools.

The schools can 'label' and put pressure on the parents all they want, but they can't make the actual diagnosis and prescribe medication. Only the doctor can do that. So the requirement for proper testing before diagnosis and treatment must be imposed on the medical community vice the school.

 

[RJM62]

I agree with what you are suggesting, Rich, but the ultimate issue is with unscrupulous members of the medical community and not the schools.

The schools can 'label' and put pressure on the parents all they want, but they can't make the actual diagnosis and prescribe medication. Only the doctor can do that. So the requirement for proper testing before diagnosis and treatment must be imposed on the medical community vice the school.

It depends on the school. There's a world of difference between how it's done in more affluent districts versus the inner city.

In urban districts, most schools have contract physicians who sign off on ADHD diagnoses, after a five-minute meeting with the child (if that much), on the recommendation of a school social worker. Parents who object are pressured and bullied mercilessly, sometimes even to the point of being threatened with removal of the children from their custody for "neglect" if they don't go along with the diagnosis.

In more affluent areas, the parents know that the school bureaucrats are full of ****, so they hire lawyers and fight them if they disagree with the school's opinion. In poor districts, parents just go along because they're afraid they'll lose their kids if they fight the school.

It's truly disgusting, in addition to being criminal. It's also one of the reasons that I have lost most of what respect I once had for the public education system.

-Rich

 

[Matthew]

Since it takes a board certified psychiatrist and a lot of expensive tests to prove you don't have it (I don't know if insurance would cover it), I would expect at least a similar program would be necessary to prove you do have it.

But I do suspect parents are either pressured or desperate and just want to fix the problem as quickly and cheaply as possible. I haven't been in the middle of this with either of my kids, but I wonder if it winds up in a Dr office with, "Doc, we need to do SOMETHING!" Doc says, well, maybe, there IS some medication that MIGHT help here, try this and let me know if he gets better. Doc writes prescription and makes a note of "ADD/ADHD" in the records to justify the medication. Parents say, "Thanks, that did the trick." Later, little Johnny quits his meds, parents and little Johnny figure he must have outgrown whatever it was. Johnny leads an honest and productive life until he turns to a life of flying and applies for a medical. And that, as they say, is that.

 

[TMetzinger]

Hmm... My takeaway from this is that if a school or doctor wants to label my child, then they should, at a minimum, give the child the same battery of tests the FAA demands. And of course, they should pay for them.

 

[jspilot]

Guys I'm clearly sensing the hate for the education system in this country. Honestly, let's not throw stones here. Stop using offensive phrases like schools are doping up kids who don't fit into a sense of "normal.". That's absurdly not true and completely offensive to the teaching profession. Show some respect and stop talking on a topic for which the vast majority of you have proven your ignorance over and over again.

Because by nature I want to help anyone who reads this who may be interessted in learning how the process works I'll outline it the best I can.

1. Parent or teacher brings a concern about a student. They are not labeling at this point just saying, it- whatever it is by the way means nothing, deserves to be investigated further.

2. Student is observed both by evaluations of a teacher and parents and these are recorded.

3. If a pattern presents itself( the kid displays the behavior multiple
times throughout the day) the student is referred for evaluation. At this point both parents and teachers are asked to fill out a scaled based form that simply evaluated how often a behavior is occurring. It's not based on normal or school expectations just the number of occurances.

4. The kid goes through a SERIES of tests, I imagine as many if not more than the FAA uses to determine if the observations are real or just false conclusions. If they prove real, the doctor or psychologist makes a diagnosis!

So there you have it. I have taught special education for 8 years and have been through this process countless times. It works. Anyone is entitled to be a skeptic, but at least recognize where your skepticism comes from!

 

[N801BH]

Guys I'm clearly sensing the hate for the education system in this country. Honestly, let's not throw stones here. Stop using offensive phrases like schools are doping up kids who don't fit into a sense of "normal.". That's absurdly not true and completely offensive to the teaching profession. Show some respect and stop talking on a topic for which the vast majority of you have proven your ignorance over and over again.

Because by nature I want to help anyone who reads this who may be interessted in learning how the process works I'll outline it the best I can.

1. Parent or teacher brings a concern about a student. They are not labeling at this point just saying, it- whatever it is by the way means nothing, deserves to be investigated further.

2. Student is observed both by evaluations of a teacher and parents and these are recorded.

3. If a pattern presents itself( the kid displays the behavior multiple
times throughout the day) the student is referred for evaluation. At this point both parents and teachers are asked to fill out a scaled based form that simply evaluated how often a behavior is occurring. It's not based on normal or school expectations just the number of occurances.

4. The kid goes through a SERIES of tests, I imagine as many if not more than the FAA uses to determine if the observations are real or just false conclusions. If they prove real, the doctor or psychologist makes a diagnosis!

So there you have it. I have taught special education for 8 years and have been through this process countless times. It works. Anyone is entitled to be a skeptic, but at least recognize where your skepticism comes from!

Glad you chimed back in...

My question, as others have asked too..

Why is ADHD /ADD so widespread now as opposed to 30 years ago.. Climate, paranoia, scam, diet, ????

 

[poadeleted20]

Since it takes a board certified psychiatrist and a lot of expensive tests to prove you don't have it (I don't know if insurance would cover it),

If the purpose of the process is FAA certification, it doesn't. That's the really rough part.

 

[jspilot]

Glad you chimed back in...

My question, as others have asked too..

Why is ADHD /ADD so widespread now as opposed to 30 years ago.. Climate, paranoia, scam, diet, ????

I can't answer that question. My sense is simply this. This country has developed a tremendous interest in learning how the brain works fairly recently. The scientific based information simply did not exist long ago. I'm sure because of a heightened state of knowledge coupled with an intense increase in standardized testing parents and schools have become more aware of things than 30 years ago. When students do poorly on a standardized test, parents ask question and want answers. If that continues time and time again, well then it is worth a shot to try and help figure out what is going on here.

By the way, just because a child is diagnosed with ADD does not require they use medication. That is a parent choice, one that is truly hard!

Ben if you don't want my thoughts, that's fine. Ignore them all you want but I would hope you can understand why I can't just let some comments go unchecked. Lots of people hate on teachers enough as it is. Another thought I have that will no doubt offend many here is lots of kids behave poorly in school because they see how often authority figures are questioned in society now a days that it is no wonder they don't show much regard to teachers. People use to tell their kids to show the teacher respect and work hard. Now it has become more like the teachers words are only "guidelines" and that they and their motives( something that is painfully obviously being done in this thread) should be questioned whenever and however often as possible.

This thread was about ADD and the FAA so I am sorry for the thread drift.