ADHD Disqualifying

From experience the school and teacher do not diagnose a student with ADD or anything like that. That is a medical diagnoses and only a doctor can give that. More often than not it is the parent who comes to the school with concerns surrounding their student. The facts may show that schools prosper from having students with ADD in their classes but the process does not conclude that schools are using students with ADD for financial windfall.

People with ADD should not be disqualified from anything. Beyond that, I'm not sure why the FAA thinks they can play "god" with who can fly and airplane.
 
jspilot said:
From experience the school and teacher do not diagnose a student with ADD or anything like that.
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People with ADD should not be disqualified from anything. Beyond that, I'm not sure why the FAA thinks they can play "god" with who can fly and airplane.
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I'm glad your experience was better than mine. I had to use the threat of a lawsuit against the school board where a teacher 'diagnosed' such a thing in one of my kids, and put it in her school record. It was removed, after a few threats.

Agreed, the FAA aeromed has gone far overboard on who can fly a small GA plane for private utility.
 
jspilot said:
From experience the school and teacher do not diagnose a student with ADD or anything like that. That is a medical diagnoses and only a doctor can give that. More often than not it is the parent who comes to the school with concerns surrounding their student. The facts may show that schools prosper from having students with ADD in their classes but the process does not conclude that schools are using students with ADD for financial windfall.

People with ADD should not be disqualified from anything. Beyond that, I'm not sure why the FAA thinks they can play "god" with who can fly and airplane.
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I don't think ADD should be disqualifying from private ops, I think anyone should be able to kill themselves and their friends & family, but I agree it should be disqualifying for commercial ops where people have the right to an expectancy of ability. Aviation when it starts going wrong requires extreme levels of concentration and ability to focus cognition and critical thought.
 
Henning said:
I don't think ADD should be disqualifying from private ops, I think anyone should be able to kill themselves and their friends & family, but I agree it should be disqualifying for commercial ops where people have the right to an expectancy of ability. Aviation when it starts going wrong requires extreme levels of concentration and ability to focus cognition and critical thought.
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That's like saying that crew rest rules should only apply to pax carriers and not box haulers.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Problem with plane crashes is that the victims are not always limited to the occupants of the aircraft.
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If that is the standard GA is not justifiable for any reason except ems helicopters and organ transplants, maybe.
 
ClimbnSink said:
If that is the standard GA is not justifiable for any reason except ems helicopters and organ transplants, maybe.
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And neither is driving.
I would think that a lot of driving accidents end up involving people that were not occupying the car that caused it. Even more so than airplane crashes.
 
Henning said:
Aviation when it starts going wrong requires extreme levels of concentration and ability to focus cognition and critical thought.
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ADHD can manifest itself by the person not having any problems focusing on things that interest them. If aviation is what interests the person, which would be manifest through successes in the training regime, it is quite possible for an ADHD "sufferer" to actually be a better pilot than someone who does not have the same dedication and focus on aviation. I suspect some of the most successful pilots in history would have fallen into this category.
 
Jeff Oslick said:
ADHD can manifest itself by the person not having any problems focusing on things that interest them. If aviation is what interests the person, which would be manifest through successes in the training regime, it is quite possible for an ADHD "sufferer" to actually be a better pilot than someone who does not have the same dedication and focus on aviation. I suspect some of the most successful pilots in history would have fallen into this category.
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Maybe, until something goes wrong or there is a distraction. Would ADD cause the PIC get so task oriented he'd forget to fly the plane? I don't know the answer to that.
 
Matthew said:
Maybe, until something goes wrong or there is a distraction. Would ADD cause the PIC get so task oriented he'd forget to fly the plane? I don't know the answer to that.
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No it is the OCD types that die that way. ADD types do well focusing under pressure they just don't know where their phone and car keys are most of the time.
 
jspilot said:
People with ADD should not be disqualified from anything. Beyond that, I'm not sure why the FAA thinks they can play "god" with who can fly and airplane.
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I dont agree. I dont buy that ADD exists en masse, but the fact is that after people are "diagnosed" they are put on dugs that affect their behavior. How can you trust someone to operate a piece of equipment in a predictable manner when they may or may not be taking these drugs at any given time? OTOH get rid of the drugs and test them inntheir natural state and ingenerally agree with you
 
Fearless Tower said:
Problem with plane crashes is that the victims are not always limited to the occupants of the aircraft.
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True in concept, however in reality people on the ground getting killed or even injured by crashing GA planes is a statistical anomaly.
 
Matthew said:
Maybe, until something goes wrong or there is a distraction. Would ADD cause the PIC get so task oriented he'd forget to fly the plane? I don't know the answer to that.
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JHW said:
I dont agree. I dont buy that ADD exists en masse, but the fact is that after people are "diagnosed" they are put on dugs that affect their behavior. How can you trust someone to operate a piece of equipment in a predictable manner when they may or may not be taking these drugs at any given time? OTOH get rid of the drugs and test them inntheir natural state and ingenerally agree with you
Click to expand...

ADD does not cause people to behave in any less predictable maner at all; it simply interferes with a person's ability to focus on information presented to them for long durations. So many adults living today would have been diagnosed with ADD if the tests were as rapidly administered as they are today. I'd imagine many pilots now are flying with as many, if not more symptoms than the person who is disqualified because of ADD.

Many people in this nation- not saying you, have tremendous missunderstandings surrounding learning disabilities and ADD. It's largely this missunderstandings that guide policy and that's just wrong.
 
Jeff Oslick said:
ADHD can manifest itself by the person not having any problems focusing on things that interest them. If aviation is what interests the person, which would be manifest through successes in the training regime, it is quite possible for an ADHD "sufferer" to actually be a better pilot than someone who does not have the same dedication and focus on aviation. I suspect some of the most successful pilots in history would have fallen into this category.
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Possibly, the problem is we don't have a testing regime anymore that induces the levels of stress that force reaction which admittedly is a problem that expands well beyond ADD and even GA. I would be all for eliminating these broad and somewhat arbitrary restrictions and replace them with true proof of ability tests that are fatal when failed.
 
jspilot said:
Beyond that, I'm not sure why the FAA thinks they can play "god" with who can fly and airplane.
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Because Congress ordered them to, and Congress pays them to do what Congress tells them to do. If you have a problem with that, take it up with Congress, not the FAA.
 
Ron Levy said:
As I said above, any diagnosis of ADHD ever will have to be reported as a "yes" for question 18m on the FAA Form 8500-8 and explained, which will result in the ADHD protocol being required even if he never took any ADHD meds. See http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...ces/aam/ame/guide/dec_cons/disease_prot/adhd/ for what that entails.

The alternative is for you to get the doctor who made that diagnosis to withdraw it in writing in his record and state for the record that he does not have ADHD and never did. Otherwise, as far as the FAA is concerned, he's stuck with that tag for life.
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What if the child is never made aware of the diagnosis?
 
Henning said:
I would be all for eliminating these broad and somewhat arbitrary restrictions and replace them with true proof of ability tests that are fatal when failed.
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That's a little grim, even for you, Henning.
 
Jeff Oslick said:
That's a little grim, even for you, Henning.
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Not grim at all, enlightening to know we've eliminated the AF447, Colgan Buffalo, Louisville KY, Raleigh-Durham... Accident pilots from the airline ranks before they get to kill the people that paid them to protect their lives.
 
While we are fortunate to have many great teachers in our schools, there are also many very poor teachers as well. When I was in school I had both types. If I was in school now I have no doubt they would try to label me as ADHD. I had one teacher to whom I will be forever greatful. She noticed I was having trouble staying focused in her class and kept me after class one day to talk. She told me she was convinced that I could easily do the work and did not understand why I was doing soo poorley in her class. So she decided to ask me what was the problem. I was honest and even though I was sure I would get into trouble I told her the truth, I was boored stiff. The work was so mind numbingly simple that I just did not care about it. After she got over the surprise of my statement she decided to take me at my word. Thereafter she gave all the other students thier assignments and then she gave me mine, which was much harder and made me work for it. My grades went from nearly failing to all A's. she was a great teacher, she challenged me and was wise enough to listen when I told her the truth. I learned well in her class and also learned that I loved a challenge. That has served me well all of my life and still does. When something cannott be done just move aside and I will find a way. I love that kind of challenge. i have learned many things because of the attitude that I will not be beat and will find a way. She was a great teacher. I now have a young man that works with me who was labeled as ADHD and medicated . Every time he made a mistake his first words would be , That his teachers always said he was not too bright and was ADHD. He made the mistake of telling me that one day and I exploded. I told Him I never wanted to hear that crap again and that his problem was simply that they did not know how to teach him because he was to smart and they did not know how to deal with it. I promised him that if he stuck with me that I would teach him my way, Soooooo. I challenged him , I gave him the impossible tasks and taught him to think step by step through diagnosing a problem and placed him in situations where he had no one to ask for help and the job had to be done. He rose to the challenge and learned very well and is a superb employee and a great friend. He knows I spent a lot of money on seemingly wasted time when the job took longer than it should and I made it right with our cutomers. I saw it as an investment in our company and in him. It has paid off very well indeed. He was and is well worth the effort and expense. Ten years later he continues to learn because he loves to learn new things. He does not know it yet but very soon he will be replacing me as I am looking at retiring very soon, qnd I know the company and our customers will be in great hands. My hat is off to. All of the teachers who care enough to go the extra mile and teach young people even when it is hard.
 
lowtimer said:
What if the child is never made aware of the diagnosis?
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That's not the FAA's problem. It's your responsibility to know your medical history. If the FAA ever finds out about it, a) you will be grounded pending neuropsych evaluation per the ADHD protocal, and b) the FAA will start an investigation into whether or not you violated FAA rules and maybe 18 USC 1001 (that's a criminal offense, not administrative like the FAR's) by not telling them. As far as the FAA rules are concerned, once the FAA shows it was in your record, the burden will be on you to demonstrate that you really didn't know what was in that record. Yes, that's a bit cold and harsh, but that's the reality.
 
Ron Levy said:
It's your responsibility to know your medical history.
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Please tell me where it it is codified in law or regulation that you are required to know your juvenile medical history.

While there is a slight risk such diagnosis could come to light in the event of an accident, and you'd probably have to go through the ringer to clear yourself of the diagnosis, you're not going to prison or even getting fined for not listing an ADHD diagnosis that had no significant medical/medication follow-up when you were a young child.
 
Ron Levy said:
You need to be addressing your request to the PoA MC regarding those who annoyed him with their pestering, quibbling, and argumentative posts to the point he decided not to put up with it any more and left again. The refusal of PoA's Management to control that sort of behavior is why he left the first time, and then again this time. Absent a fundamental change in how PoA MC moderates this site, he's not coming back.
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Fine.

What will be his next demand? Ban all those with a BMI of ^30?

Thin skin does not constitute the need for change here as was also demonstrated by the "is Florida Cracker a pilot?" thread.

BTW, I too miss Dr. Bruce, but he dished out far more than he ever received. Besides, he knows how to use the ignore function. He simply chooses not to.
 
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Vaflier said:
While we are fortunate to have many great teachers in our schools, there are also many very poor teachers as well. When I was in school I had both types. If I was in school now I have no doubt they would try to label me as ADHD. I had one teacher to whom I will be forever greatful. She noticed I was having trouble staying focused in her class and kept me after class one day to talk. She told me she was convinced that I could easily do the work and did not understand why I was doing soo poorley in her class. So she decided to ask me what was the problem. I was honest and even though I was sure I would get into trouble I told her the truth, I was boored stiff. The work was so mind numbingly simple that I just did not care about it. After she got over the surprise of my statement she decided to take me at my word. Thereafter she gave all the other students thier assignments and then she gave me mine, which was much harder and made me work for it. My grades went from nearly failing to all A's. she was a great teacher, she challenged me and was wise enough to listen when I told her the truth. I learned well in her class and also learned that I loved a challenge. That has served me well all of my life and still does. When something cannott be done just move aside and I will find a way. I love that kind of challenge. i have learned many things because of the attitude that I will not be beat and will find a way. She was a great teacher. I now have a young man that works with me who was labeled as ADHD and medicated . Every time he made a mistake his first words would be , That his teachers always said he was not too bright and was ADHD. He made the mistake of telling me that one day and I exploded. I told Him I never wanted to hear that crap again and that his problem was simply that they did not know how to teach him because he was to smart and they did not know how to deal with it. I promised him that if he stuck with me that I would teach him my way, Soooooo. I challenged him , I gave him the impossible tasks and taught him to think step by step through diagnosing a problem and placed him in situations where he had no one to ask for help and the job had to be done. He rose to the challenge and learned very well and is a superb employee and a great friend. He knows I spent a lot of money on seemingly wasted time when the job took longer than it should and I made it right with our cutomers. I saw it as an investment in our company and in him. It has paid off very well indeed. He was and is well worth the effort and expense. Ten years later he continues to learn because he loves to learn new things. He does not know it yet but very soon he will be replacing me as I am looking at retiring very soon, qnd I know the company and our customers will be in great hands. My hat is off to. All of the teachers who care enough to go the extra mile and teach young people even when it is hard.
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Interessting post Randy. I'm glad you got a good teacher who knew you needed something different. That said, your "being bored stiff" is not always the same as having ADD. Kids get bored in school but keep it together. Other students who truly have attention issues are honestly often incapable of regulating themselves. The thing is most people learn how to regulate themselves and are a taught strategies by teachers to help when the student feels he or she needs help. That's why their is no reason by adulthood people with ADD should not be able to fly!
 
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Jeff Oslick said:
Please tell me where it it is codified in law or regulation that you are required to know your juvenile medical history.
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14 CFR 67.4(a) requires you to "Apply on a form and in a manner prescribed by the Administrator." That form asks "HAVE YOU EVER IN YOUR LIFE BEEN DIAGNOSED WITH...". There is no exception on the form or in the attached instructions allowing you to skip reporting medical history prior to some particular age. You really are legally responsible for knowing and correctly providing your medical history.

While there is a slight risk such diagnosis could come to light in the event of an accident, and you'd probably have to go through the ringer to clear yourself of the diagnosis, you're not going to prison or even getting fined for not listing an ADHD diagnosis that had no significant medical/medication follow-up when you were a young child.
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Maybe, maybe not, but you will be investigated for violating 61.59, and if found in violation, have all your FAA certificates revoked. It will be at least another year before you can apply for a new medical -- although that year will give you time to build the neuropsych package.
 
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Ron Levy said:
14 CFR 67.4(a) requires you to "Apply on a form and in a manner prescribed by the Administrator." That form asks "HAVE YOU EVER IN YOUR LIFE BEEN DIAGNOSED WITH...". There is no exception on the form or in the attached instructions allowing you to skip reporting medical history prior to some particular age. You really are legally responsible for knowing and correctly providing your medical history.
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You missed the part in the signature block about "to the best of my knowledge". That is the "exception", right there in black and white. If a parent never tells a child about something deep in their medical history, exactly how far do you think that person's obligation extends to dig this stuff out 20+ years after the fact?
 
Jeff Oslick said:
You missed the part in the signature block about "to the best of my knowledge". That is the "exception", right there in black and white. If a parent never tells a child about something deep in their medical history, exactly how far do you think that person's obligation extends to dig this stuff out 20+ years after the fact?
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Good luck making that argument before the FAA, an ALJ, or the NTSB -- I've never seen a "best of my knowledge" argument work there. There is simply nothing in the law saying you are not responsible for a diagnosis which occurred before any particular age.
 
Ron Levy said:
Good luck making that argument before the FAA, an ALJ, or the NTSB -- I've never seen a "best of my knowledge" argument work there. There is simply nothing in the law saying you are not responsible for a diagnosis which occurred before any particular age.
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"Before any particular age" is not the issue. Not having been told about a childhood diagnosis is.

When you filled out your first medical certificate application, how much research did you do to find out if there were any childhood diagnoses that you hadn't been told about?
 
Palmpilot said:
"Before any particular age" is not the issue. Not having been told about a childhood diagnosis is.
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Again, there is nothing in the regulations or FAA guidance excusing not knowing your medical history. You may, if caught on this, be able to convince the FAA that you really did not know or have reason to know of that diagnosis, but the monkey will be on your back to show that, and even if you do avoid an enforcement action, you'll still be grounded upon that discovery until you jump through the FAA's medical hoops.

When you filled out your first medical certificate application, how much research did you do to find out if there were any childhood diagnoses that you hadn't been told about?
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Doesn't matter what I did 45 years ago. What matters is the rules today.
 
Ron Levy said:
Again, there is nothing in the regulations or FAA guidance excusing not knowing your medical history.
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Again, you're overlooking the FAA guidance in the signature block on the form itself.

You may, if caught on this, be able to convince the FAA that you really did not know or have reason to know of that diagnosis, but the monkey will be on your back to show that, and even if you do avoid an enforcement action, you'll still be grounded upon that discovery until you jump through the FAA's medical hoops.
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What do you recommend that people do about it?

Doesn't matter what I did 45 years ago. What matters is the rules today.
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Since the applicable rules went into effect, how much research have you done to find out if there were any childhood diagnoses that you havn't been told about?
 
Palmpilot said:
Again, you're overlooking the FAA guidance in the signature block on the form itself.
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People have used that "I had no idea" argument before and failed. Check the violations for 61.59 on the NTSB Opinions and Orders web site.

What do you recommend that people do about it?
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Do their homework. If you can't find it, the FAA almost certainly won't, either. But if it's there, and you could have found it if you tried, the FAA will have you by the cojones if it ever comes to their attention.

Since the applicable rules went into effect, how much research have you done to find out if there were any childhood diagnoses that you havn't been told about?
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What I have done or not done isn't at issue here, just the FAA's regulations and policies.
 
Ron Levy said:
What I have done or not done isn't at issue here, just the FAA's regulations and policies.
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It just seems odd that you're issuing dire-sounding warnings to people for not doing something when you're not willing to say whether you have done it yourself.
 
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Palmpilot said:
It just seems odd that you're issuing dire-sounding warnings to people for not doing something that you haven't done.
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You are assuming facts not in evidence, and I'd appreciate your removal of that accusatory statement unless you have proof to support it.
 
I like this text from Dr. Bruce's site:

I DO tell you to engage an attorney if you have lied or omitted, in a substantial way. I will communicate with your counsel. However, frequently, if an omission is inadvertent, you should know that if it does not involve substance abuse or alcohol, FAA will rarely refer your case to the General Counsel, and is more likely to be reassured that you are fit to fly, and let the past pass...with a written warning. This is NOT ALWAYS true, however; it varies case by case and I will let you know, provided you level with me. I am not responsible if you do not disclose in a timely manner
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Ron appears to like to live in a world where the population is in fear of the bureaucracy. I choose not to live my life with such fear, and advise others to do the same.

Ron, when you can point to specific case law where civil or criminal punishment was applied with respect to failure to reveal a childhood diagnosis that was not demonstrably intentionally withheld, we'll talk.
 
jspilot said:
ADD does not cause people to behave in any less predictable maner at all; it simply interferes with a person's ability to focus on information presented to them for long durations. So many adults living today would have been diagnosed with ADD if the tests were as rapidly administered as they are today. I'd imagine many pilots now are flying with as many, if not more symptoms than the person who is disqualified because of ADD.

Many people in this nation- not saying you, have tremendous missunderstandings surrounding learning disabilities and ADD. It's largely this missunderstandings that guide policy and that's just wrong.
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Its not the "ADD" that bothers me. Its the zombie-inducing drugs that follow it that i fear.

I believe most children with "ADD" in fact have a childhood disease called "boy" for which there is no chemical treatment, the disease simply has to run its course. The symptoms can be lessened through therapy available under the names "football", "basketball", etc.
 
Having went through this twice with both my kids, in a 'proactive' school district, I want to warn parents. You must be even more proactive when it comes to your kids. If ANYONE in a school district ever in any context uses ADD or ADHD with respect your your children do not let it slide. Make absolutely sure it is not in their school records. This is even more critical now that all records are digital, and they never, ever go away.

A 'diagnosis' can only be done by someone with an MD behind their name. But - even without an MD, discussion or record-keeping that even indicates this with or without any medical evidence is very serious. For me, it required the visit of a private atty to get the school district to see things the right way. They were very aggressive with their amateur diagnosis because they were incented by the state dept of schools, and maybe the feds to get as many ADD/ADHD diagnosis as possible. It increased funding for the particular school because these kids are now considered with a learning disability and said disability carried extra funding per child.

I don't want anyone to not care for a child who shows serious learning or focus issues, but I would be very, very careful going down the ADD/ADHD road. And even more careful about any notes, or records kept. It can be devastating later on in life.

If anyone cares at this point, neither of my kids has any attention or learning problems. They are both graduating from college early, and will have very productive lives. One is working on the PPL, and the other may do that later.
 
Vaflier said:
While we are fortunate to have many great teachers in our schools, there are also many very poor teachers as well. When I was in school I had both types. If I was in school now I have no doubt they would try to label me as ADHD. I had one teacher to whom I will be forever greatful. She noticed I was having trouble staying focused in her class and kept me after class one day to talk. She told me she was convinced that I could easily do the work and did not understand why I was doing soo poorley in her class. So she decided to ask me what was the problem. I was honest and even though I was sure I would get into trouble I told her the truth, I was boored stiff. The work was so mind numbingly simple that I just did not care about it. After she got over the surprise of my statement she decided to take me at my word. Thereafter she gave all the other students thier assignments and then she gave me mine, which was much harder and made me work for it. My grades went from nearly failing to all A's. she was a great teacher, she challenged me and was wise enough to listen when I told her the truth. I learned well in her class and also learned that I loved a challenge. That has served me well all of my life and still does. When something cannott be done just move aside and I will find a way. I love that kind of challenge. i have learned many things because of the attitude that I will not be beat and will find a way. She was a great teacher. I now have a young man that works with me who was labeled as ADHD and medicated . Every time he made a mistake his first words would be , That his teachers always said he was not too bright and was ADHD. He made the mistake of telling me that one day and I exploded. I told Him I never wanted to hear that crap again and that his problem was simply that they did not know how to teach him because he was to smart and they did not know how to deal with it. I promised him that if he stuck with me that I would teach him my way, Soooooo. I challenged him , I gave him the impossible tasks and taught him to think step by step through diagnosing a problem and placed him in situations where he had no one to ask for help and the job had to be done. He rose to the challenge and learned very well and is a superb employee and a great friend. He knows I spent a lot of money on seemingly wasted time when the job took longer than it should and I made it right with our cutomers. I saw it as an investment in our company and in him. It has paid off very well indeed. He was and is well worth the effort and expense. Ten years later he continues to learn because he loves to learn new things. He does not know it yet but very soon he will be replacing me as I am looking at retiring very soon, qnd I know the company and our customers will be in great hands. My hat is off to. All of the teachers who care enough to go the extra mile and teach young people even when it is hard.
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Fantastic story. Thanks for sharing.
 
Do you know about the child files in Common Core? The whole permanent record thing is no longer a joke.
docmirror said:
Having went through this twice with both my kids, in a 'proactive' school district, I want to warn parents. You must be even more proactive when it comes to your kids. If ANYONE in a school district ever in any context uses ADD or ADHD with respect your your children do not let it slide. Make absolutely sure it is not in their school records. This is even more critical now that all records are digital, and they never, ever go away.

A 'diagnosis' can only be done by someone with an MD behind their name. But - even without an MD, discussion or record-keeping that even indicates this with or without any medical evidence is very serious. For me, it required the visit of a private atty to get the school district to see things the right way. They were very aggressive with their amateur diagnosis because they were incented by the state dept of schools, and maybe the feds to get as many ADD/ADHD diagnosis as possible. It increased funding for the particular school because these kids are now considered with a learning disability and said disability carried extra funding per child.

I don't want anyone to not care for a child who shows serious learning or focus issues, but I would be very, very careful going down the ADD/ADHD road. And even more careful about any notes, or records kept. It can be devastating later on in life.

If anyone cares at this point, neither of my kids has any attention or learning problems. They are both graduating from college early, and will have very productive lives. One is working on the PPL, and the other may do that later.
Click to expand...
 
ClimbnSink said:
Do you know about the child files in Common Core? The whole permanent record thing is no longer a joke.
Click to expand...

I don't, but anything to do with common core scares the crap out of me.
 
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