ADF required

GauzeGuy

Pre-takeoff checklist
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GauzeGuy
The missed approach fix is at the HUSSK LOM/NDB

I thought about that, but wouldn't that be easily solved by having the hold based on a flying the localizer outbound and holding at a specific altitude and DME? KAPA ILS/LOC 35R does exactly that; the plate says DME or ADF.

If it is what it is without any real explanation, I get that. I just wonder with the drive to decommission NDB's, why not use the existing resources?
 
The KAPA ILS or LOC 35R hasn't said "DME or ADF Required" for some time now. I posted about the changes to the plate a few times the year before last when they removed the only transition route for a /A equipped aircraft like mine, off of FQF, and left no legal way to navigate to the approach /A, without radar vectors.

enytypa2.jpg


They switched it to "RADAR Required" which effectively kills a NORDO approach with a /A aircraft, but makes more sense. Some of that may or may not have come about after I (and possibly others, I'm not looking for "credit") had a nice e-mail chat with the folks responsible for the plate updates that year. It took more than one e-mail to describe what /A meant to the official I was chatting with, sadly.

The focus of those plate updates was to add the new GPS approaches, and I think someone's head was squarely up and locked in GPS mode.

Not that I blame them, they were also laying in all of the new DEN fancy GPS glide path-based approaches and STARs and making sure none of the satellite airports interfered with those. Having an airplane wander over FQF and then turn toward KAPA wasn't really in the cards.

Hell, it confused DEN TRACON when I filed and flew it, as depicted. They asked when I could proceed "Centennial Direct". When I replied I was /A equipped, and couldn't proceed direct, but could accept a heading assignment, they grumbled and turned me. They didn't want me passing over FQF on my way to KAPA from the southeast.

It was CAVU and I could have cheated and used the heading on the "non-FAA approved" iPad, and my outside references and "situational awareness", but I wanted to see what they'd say. I was filed the legal way for my aircraft, including the transition route, and cleared "as filed" at the time. If they had sounded slammed, I'd have just said,"Cancel IFR" to help them out.

In KAPA's case, I think their traffic load is high enough that they don't want the possibility of trying to keep the entire approach corridor clear of traffic for a NORDO aircraft, and they don't want someone turning outbound head to head with the next inbound. Thus, "RADAR Required". Lose comm before you're established on the localizer, you have a different decision to make than how to navigate to the approach, going into KAPA in a /A aircraft. You're headed for your carefully chosen Alternate that has a legal way to navigate onto the final approach course.

KBJC had gone to "RADAR Required" years before KAPA did. I was kinda surprised it took as long as it did.

The one that absolutely floors me is the ILS or LOC 17 into KFTG. Imagine the weeping and gnashing of teeth (and instant request to change it, from the DEN tower chief, TRACON, and everyone else) if someone /A ever goes NORDO and was filed via FQF and then decides the wind is out of the south so they'll fly that approach not talking to DEN. There will be multiple controllers having kittens when the bugsmasher turns outbound toward FYZER and while they're dawdling through a 90 knot procedure turn only 5 miles from DVV.

Or better, they file the DANDD7 STAR to DVV and then go NORDO, landing KFTG.

Fun and games would ensue. Not much thought appears to where folks would be wandering if NORDO and arriving KFTG in general. Especially if they're making mistakes.

Most of those KFTG plates should have the "RADAR Required" added, not so much because the radar is really needed, but the Comm. Those published transition routes off of DVV are a really bad idea when viewed from a lost comm perspective. Wheeee... Let's go do procedure turns 5 miles off the DEN runaways! LOL.

me6etusy.jpg
 
I thought about that, but wouldn't that be easily solved by having the hold based on a flying the localizer outbound and holding at a specific altitude and DME?
That would be possible, but they'd have to redesign and re-flight check the procedure. In the mean time, the current m/a procedure is "direct HUSSK", and there's no way to do that without an ADF (or approved substitute, like IFR GPS). No doubt when the NDB decommissioning program reaches STS, that will happen (as it did when they decommissioned the COLBE OM at KSBY, where it's now "heading 170, join the 140 radial to COLBE INT"), but until then, you're stuck with the procedure as published.
 
The KAPA ILS or LOC 35R hasn't said "DME or ADF Required" for some time now.

Read the notes for the plate that you posted, it still says "Circling to Rwy 35L NA at night. ADF or DME required."
 
Read the notes for the plate that you posted, it still says "Circling to Rwy 35L NA at night. ADF or DME required."


Well why the **** did they do that? Argh. Why don't they just put all three limitations on the face of the plate?
 
Well why the **** did they do that? Argh. Why don't they just put all three limitations on the face of the plate?
There is actually a rule in the TERPS manual about when they put limitations in little letters in the Notes block at the top and when they put it in big bold letters in the planform view. However, you'd have to ask Wally Roberts or maybe John Collins to explain it to you.
 
There is actually a rule in the TERPS manual about when they put limitations in little letters in the Notes block at the top and when they put it in big bold letters in the planform view. However, you'd have to ask Wally Roberts or maybe John Collins to explain it to you.


I'm not that bored.

Plus, color me skeptical. The plate had both limitations printed on it until Nov 2012 and the approach hasn't changed in any significant way, other than the removal of the published transition off of FQF and the addition of the RADAR requirement.

I doubt that triggered a TERPS requirement to move 2/3's of the requirements to the text box.
 
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Yes, it's not that obscure though I always forget the rule every time about 2 weeks after reading it.

So according to dtuuri's link the rule is basically: it goes on the plan view if the additional equipment is required for procedure entry, and in the notes if required for the missed or to identify other fixes along the approach. If that's true then it still begs the OP's question. Why is the note in the plan view on this approach and not in the notes? The GOPHER VORTAC entry doesn't require ADF, the only need is for the published missed.
 
Yes, it's not that obscure though I always forget the rule every time about 2 weeks after reading it.

So according to dtuuri's link the rule is basically: it goes on the plan view if the additional equipment is required for procedure entry, and in the notes if required for the missed or to identify other fixes along the approach. If that's true then it still begs the OP's question. Why is the note in the plan view on this approach and not in the notes? The GOPHER VORTAC entry doesn't require ADF, the only need is for the published missed.

I would imagine it's because HUSSK is the IAF if you do the full procedure with course reversal rather than the feeder route from GOPHER.
 
Fun stuff. I still want someone to vector me to FIRPI on the KAPA example above. "Unable". "Why?" "Can't maintain 210."

The plate really doesn't need the bottom line under the 210 knot restriction. There's people vectored that far out on a busy day doing way less than 210. It's pointless.
 
Fun stuff. I still want someone to vector me to FIRPI on the KAPA example above. "Unable". "Why?" "Can't maintain 210."

The plate really doesn't need the bottom line under the 210 knot restriction. There's people vectored that far out on a busy day doing way less than 210. It's pointless.
I'm guessing that hard 210K restriction is erroneous. I suspect they meant "no more than 210K", or maybe it's completely spurious. Shoot an email to the charting people and see what they say.
 
I'm not that bored.

Plus, color me skeptical. The plate had both limitations printed on it until Nov 2012 and the approach hasn't changed in any significant way, other than the removal of the published transition off of FQF and the addition of the RADAR requirement.

I doubt that triggered a TERPS requirement to move 2/3's of the requirements to the text box.

Did the RADAR REQUIRED addition happen at the same time the ADF/DME was moved to the notes? And what was the IAF before the RADAR requirement? Was it CASSE?
 
I'm guessing that hard 210K restriction is erroneous. I suspect they meant "no more than 210K", or maybe it's completely spurious. Shoot an email to the charting people and see what they say.


Already did back in 2012. They left it as-is.
 
Did the RADAR REQUIRED addition happen at the same time the ADF/DME was moved to the notes? And what was the IAF before the RADAR requirement? Was it CASSE?


Ah that's probably it. Yes. CASSE. And there was a depicted procedure turn.

That's what they were trying to dump I bet... They don't want outbound traffic going against the inbounds.

Same thing with the transition route off of FQF, you'd have to fly outbound and turn around.
 
FIRPI is the end of the new(ish) RNAV arrivals which are not assigned to slower airplanes AFAIK. There are speeds to maintain all along the way but ATC will waive them if separation is not an issue.
 
FIRPI is the end of the new(ish) RNAV arrivals which are not assigned to slower airplanes AFAIK. There are speeds to maintain all along the way but ATC will waive them if separation is not an issue.


I know. I still want someone to do it. Doesn't mean they will. ;)

Folks have a really hard time reading my stuff literally as-written. :)

And the bar underneath the 210 is still stupid on the plate. :)
 
I know. I still want someone to do it. Doesn't mean they will. ;)

Folks have a really hard time reading my stuff literally as-written. :)

And the bar underneath the 210 is still stupid on the plate. :)
Is it less stupid on this chart? Maybe the charting convention is that the information for the fixes on the charts need to match up. Who knows?

http://aeronav.faa.gov//d-tpp/1403/05715DUNNN.PDF

I don't even know if they use FIRPI for slower airplanes. Don't they usually vector you for the ILS somewhere between FIRPI and CASSE? Even in a faster airplane I have only done the whole arrival and approach with the transition at FIRPI a couple times and that was when it was IMC. Otherwise they break you off for vectors well before that.
 
That would be possible, but they'd have to redesign and re-flight check the procedure. In the mean time, the current m/a procedure is "direct HUSSK", and there's no way to do that without an ADF (or approved substitute, like IFR GPS).

Ron,

Is an IFR GPS an approved substitute in this case? I was under the impression that, while IFR GPS is approved for things like going to a LOM/NDB, that the notes on equipment requirements on the plate (i.e. "ADF REQUIRED") meant that only the ADF would suffice... Just like how if you have an NDB approach that doesn't say "OR GPS" on it, you can't fly it without an ADF, no matter how fancy of a GPS you have.

What's the reference?

Thanks!
 
Ron Levy said:
I'm guessing that hard 210K restriction is erroneous. I suspect they meant "no more than 210K", or maybe it's completely spurious. Shoot an email to the charting people and see what they say.
Already did back in 2012. They left it as-is.
My experience is that when they do that, they give you an explanation of why it's no wrong. Can you share that explanation?
 
Ron,

Is an IFR GPS an approved substitute in this case?
Yes, it is, per AIM Table 1-1-6. You are subbing the GPS for ADF for something other than lateral guidance on the final segment of an approach without "GPS" in the title, and that's approved.
I was under the impression that, while IFR GPS is approved for things like going to a LOM/NDB, that the notes on equipment requirements on the plate (i.e. "ADF REQUIRED") meant that only the ADF would suffice... Just like how if you have an NDB approach that doesn't say "OR GPS" on it, you can't fly it without an ADF, no matter how fancy of a GPS you have.
That restriction only applies to lateral guidance on the final segment (FAF/FAP to MAP/runway). Here's the full verbiage on that point:
4. Pilots may not substitute for the NAVAID (for example, a VOR or NDB ) providing lateral guidance for the final approach segment. This restriction does not refer to instrument approach procedures with “or GPS” in the title when using GPS or WAAS
What's the reference?
See AIM Section 1-2-3c for the full discussion, but the relevant sentence allowing the substitution on the approaches under discussion is:
1. The allowances described in this section apply even when a facility is identified as required on a procedure (for example, “Note ADF required”).
 
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Is it less stupid on this chart? Maybe the charting convention is that the information for the fixes on the charts need to match up. Who knows?



http://aeronav.faa.gov//d-tpp/1403/05715DUNNN.PDF



I don't even know if they use FIRPI for slower airplanes. Don't they usually vector you for the ILS somewhere between FIRPI and CASSE? Even in a faster airplane I have only done the whole arrival and approach with the transition at FIRPI a couple times and that was when it was IMC. Otherwise they break you off for vectors well before that.


I said I knew they did it to match up to the STAR, but you bring up a good point that maybe it's required to match them up. ;)

Yes, usually vectors to about a mile or so south of CASSE is pretty normal.

VFR it's pretty common to be vectored straight through the final course to the northwest, for faster traffic out near FIRPI. Then usually a *right* turn and a loooong trip southeast and back out to do it again. They seem not to be very interested in vectoring practice approaches in from the southwest side. Not sure why.
 
My experience is that when they do that, they give you an explanation of why it's no wrong. Can you share that explanation?


Didn't get one. It was mixed with other items, and the other items were addressed. Probably just meant to address it and didn't. Mari may have hit the reason.
 
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