Active Shooter Training

Ted DuPuis said:
While that was a very anti-gun video and seemed pretty obviously set up to be biased, it did illustrate some of the point.
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I do take your point. But I don't think it was at all anti-gun. It was pointing out how stupidly easy it was to get a concealed carry permit and how vanishingly small the odds are that one would be able to use it productively in real life. Police undergo regular scenario training and weapons training and still screw things up alarmingly frequently. I don't have a lot of confidence in the average Joe to do something useful.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
While that was a very anti-gun video and seemed pretty obviously set up to be biased, it did illustrate some of the point. One of my friends was killed at Virginia Tech in the 2007 shooting - there were students who had guns and weren't able to stop the shooter (he went in guns blazing and got them first). My friend was shot in the back of the head and died instantly several weeks before her graduation.

Really, the most applicable use of concealed carry for most of us is not running into a mass shooting situation to stop it, it's for someone trying to harm you personally, hold up a 7-11 when you're in there, etc. There you've actually got a clear understanding of who the bad guy is, and you're in a better position to respond. Or if you happen to be in a building where the shooter comes right in where you are, similarly you know who the bad guy is. It's about timing and location.
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Very good point Ted. As much as folks were all fired up about Military Reserve Centers not being 'armed', let's not forget that at least two people in the Reserve unit at Chattanooga had personal firearms and were not successful in stopping the attacker.
 
ircphoenix said:
I can't wait for the School Security Administration to protect us at schools with body scanners.
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They already have that at many inner city schools. Metal detectors, clear backpacks, clear bags/purses, dress codes, security fences etc etc.

When I was going to school in Long Beach, I was an ironworker. We did a large job for a local high school putting security screens(think metal bars) over all the classroom windows and office windows to keep the students from breaking and stealing the computers/tv's and the like. They had an eight foot fence around the perimeter to keep the kids IN. Every once in awhile you would see a couple three four kids sneaking around a building corner and we knew it was on then. We would run out and watch the fun happening. Usually a car would come schreechin to a halt on the other side of the fence as the kids tried to scale the fence before the security officers could drag them off the fence and they would dive head first into the car window as the car would speed off! It was great fun to watch and gave us many hours of enjoyment. In most cases a couple might make it over while the rest would be apprehended and put back into their classroom. One day we were treated to a nice brawl between a large group of asian kids and black kids. I gave it a five out of ten for the initial enthusiasm in the fight but they quickly tired and the quality of the blows being landed went all to hell. Not a bad brawl but I would have liked to see them do some more strength and stamina conditioning before the next one. I enjoyed the months we worked there as it was always an adventure but a sad window into the education system these kids have made it into.
 
172andyou said:
I do take your point. But I don't think it was at all anti-gun. It was pointing out how stupidly easy it was to get a concealed carry permit and how vanishingly small the odds are that one would be able to use it productively in real life. Police undergo regular scenario training and weapons training and still screw things up alarmingly frequently. I don't have a lot of confidence in the average Joe to do something useful.
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We can agree to disagree on the "stupidly easy" part. When I had my concealed carry in Indiana there was no training - just go fill out the form, get fingerprinted by the police, and it showed up a few weeks later. Kansas is a "Constitutional Carry" state (no concealed carry permit required for most situations), and Missouri recently also adopted that, but I've not read up on all rules surrounding it.

The part where we fully agree on is the ability of the average Joe to run to his car, run back in the building with a gun, and actually take down a shooter. It's just not realistic and puts yourself and others in danger. If nothing else, the shooter is trying to kill people, probably anyone he can. You're trying to kill one person only: the shooter. So while he just sees you and shoots you, you're trying to see him, determine if he's the one you're after, and then try to shoot.

Then you have the realm area of you have a gun and someone breaks into your house, is posing a direct threat to you, shooter in a small location where it's obvious who the bad guy is, etc. That can get grey (is it your daughter's boyfriend sneaking in or someone who's actually breaking in to hurt your family and steal your stuff?), but is typically more black and white. That's really where the good guy with the gun can stop the bad guy with the gun.

I do think that the NRA tends to make it sound much easier than it is for good guys with guns to stop bad guys with guns (I let my membership lapse over a decade ago because I find them too extreme), but doesn't mean it's impossible.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
We can agree to disagree on the "stupidly easy" part. When I had my concealed carry in Indiana there was no training - just go fill out the form, get fingerprinted by the police, and it showed up a few weeks later. Kansas is a "Constitutional Carry" state (no concealed carry permit required for most situations), and Missouri recently also adopted that, but I've not read up on all rules surrounding it.
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Here in Virginia, all you have to do is fill out an application, show a military ID and pay the fee and they will give you one.
 
northtechsan said:
Active shooter is really a term for the responding authorities. It tells them how many resources need to be deployed to an incident scene and which playbook they are going to use when they get there.

Active shooter is shots are currently being fired at the time of the 911 call. Paramedics generally will not enter an area to treat wounded until police have secured that area.

As opposed to an Inactivate shooter that means someone has been shot and the shooter had left the area, or is otherwise no longer an active threat.
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Thanks for the explanation.
 
172andyou said:
I do take your point. But I don't think it was at all anti-gun. It was pointing out how stupidly easy it was to get a concealed carry permit and how vanishingly small the odds are that one would be able to use it productively in real life. Police undergo regular scenario training and weapons training and still screw things up alarmingly frequently. I don't have a lot of confidence in the average Joe to do something useful.
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Firearms are much about common sense and being able to think a couple steps ahead, much like aviation.

You can take a lower functioning person and have him sit through tons of courses, bunch of "training" and he'll just be a highly trained person with no common sense. Sadly LE doesn't always attract the scholars of our society, nor does it weed out folks who should maybe just work Home Depot instead.

I've done some friendly smalle USPSA shoots, my buddy and I out shot the few cops who attended, it's amazing how few are "gun guys" or enjoy target shooting, normally the guys who end up cleaning house end up being a software guy, retired teacher, nurse or something.

So that whole argument of police being vastly safer than a non government worker with a firearm doesn't hold much water with me.
 
Shepherd said:
Active shooter training: The duck and cover nuclear bomb drill of this generation.
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Great quote.

Add ... "Only utilized in locations where people have been made into soft and easy targets by current law or bad corporate policy."
 
Anyone else just not worried about this? Yeah sure these things happen a few times a year but if you consider the frequency and the number of schools/businesses/etc there are is this really a thing we need to worry about? I kind of file this under terrorism, lightning strikes, and brain aneurisms. Yeah, sure it could happen... but it's extremely unlikely and I'm not going to worry about it.

Even if you did want to worry about it, aren't these shooters usually insiders? A student, employee, or whatever? So these people will have had the same exact training as everyone else.... wonderful, I'm sure it will be really effective.
 
cowman said:
Anyone else just not worried about this? Yeah sure these things happen a few times a year but if you consider the frequency and the number of schools/businesses/etc there are is this really a thing we need to worry about?
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I told my boss today that we'd save a lot more lives by offering Driver's Training refresher courses than by doing Active Shooter training. He pointed out that our employer doesn't get sued if I have a car accident on the way home, but would get sued if there was a shooting and we hadn't inoculated the corporation by doing this training.
 
kyleb said:
I told my boss today that we'd save a lot more lives by offering Driver's Training refresher courses than by doing Active Shooter training. He pointed out that our employer doesn't get sued if I have a car accident on the way home, but would get sued if there was a shooting and we hadn't inoculated the corporation by doing this training.
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Going to get sued anyway. And by giving training, if the opposite side lawyer is worth their fees, they're going to ask to have every bit of that training brought into the court as evidence that it wasn't done right, if they find even the smallest but "shocking" errors in it that they can emotionally manipulate a jury with.
 
I had HS classmate, real bright kid, left of Mao, but rational. I was more Atilla the Hun, but we got along. . .so he's called to the principal's office, showed a bag of dope and a .22 handgun, asked to explain how they came to be in his locker (County police officer present)
"Mr. Reed, what I see is you in posession of illegal drugs, and a gun"
"Son, we found them in your locker"
"Mr. Reed, it's your locker, I just get to use it"
"Lester, it's your locker, you have the combination."
"Apparently so do you, and I imagine quite a few of the other school staff"

Funny enough (and yeah, Lester's dad was a lawyer, and so was Lester, eventually). The principal wanted Lester arrested, but the cop was a lot smarter than that, even back in the 70s.

What wasn't so funny was Lester telling me, several years later, that it really wasn't his dope or gun. He was kinda radical, even disruptive, and it was a clumsy, sleazy attempt to railroad him. Left or right, some dirtballs find a way to do the wrong thing, when "dresed in a little brief authority".
 
I'm more worried about the idiot on his cellphone on the road next to me than I am about active shooters, pressure cookers or who the f invented the H bomb.
 
SkyDog58 said:
I'm more worried about the idiot on his cellphone on the road next to me than I am about active shooters, pressure cookers or who the f invented the H bomb.
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Seriously. Some doofus in a crapbox Corolla almost sideswiped me on the toll road today which has a normal speed limit of 75, and has a construction zone for a number of miles that's 65, and he was easily doing 90.

He "only" had his car halfway in my lane in the corner and I saw him coming in the side mirror.

Was sooooo tempted to slide over a couple of feet and give him a scare, but I figured he'd roll and die if he wasn't smooth about moving back over quickly and then taking up his line in the corner again, since he was on the outside of the right hand turn. I didn't feel like stopping and waiting around for an ambulance and a rescue squad to dig him out of his car, either.
 
ircphoenix said:
I can't wait for the School Security Administration to protect us at schools with body scanners.
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There are quite a few high schools that do have metal detectors at the doors.
 
SkyDog58 said:
I'm more worried about the idiot on his cellphone on the road next to me than I am about active shooters, pressure cookers or who the f invented the H bomb.
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As well you should be. There's a ton more of them than shooters. But we've long ago established that the population in general are not good a risk math.

John
 
cowman said:
Anyone else just not worried about this? Yeah sure these things happen a few times a year but if you consider the frequency and the number of schools/businesses/etc there are is this really a thing we need to worry about? I kind of file this under terrorism, lightning strikes, and brain aneurisms. Yeah, sure it could happen... but it's extremely unlikely and I'm not going to worry about it.

Even if you did want to worry about it, aren't these shooters usually insiders? A student, employee, or whatever? So these people will have had the same exact training as everyone else.... wonderful, I'm sure it will be really effective.
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Worried about it? No. But as part of having good situational awareness, I always know where the nearest exit is and know that I'm going to first just try to escape, second hide if I can't escape, third fight if I can't hide.

I'm not worried about getting into a spin in the 414, either. But I still know how to get out of one.
 
Wouldn't it be easier to just tell the guy with a gun to shoot the Popeye's cashier instead of me?
 
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