Accident waiting to happen

brien23

brien23

Cleared for Takeoff
Joined
May 31, 2005
Messages
1,442
Location
Oak Harbor
Display Name
Display name:
Brien
When do you say something, before the accident or after it happens and say you knew it was just a matter of time till it happened. Or is it best to just walk away.
 
Umm not enough information to provide a good response.

If you are 100% sure an accident will happen then say something.

If your risk assessment is just different than someone else's then don't.
 
A&P/IA use to rent planes died, family has no idea of what to do, pilots not A&P trying to help out fixing things on the planes. Lots of people trying to help lots of advice but the end result might not be good.
 
When the smoking hole happens, don't get burned.

It's a sorry situation when a owner dies knowing he is going, and doesn't tie up the loose ends.
 
Save an unsuspecting renter. Save the family from additional unexpected grief (I'm assuming they may be ignorant?). Save your own grief by not having to think "if only I had said something".
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
Save an unsuspecting renter. Save the family from additional unexpected grief (I'm assuming they may be ignorant?). Save your own grief by not having to think "if only I had said something".
Click to expand...
What would you say and who would you say it to?
The Family is being guided by CFIs with ulterior motives, you say any thing to them you opening a piZZing contest.
Calling the FAA will not get any thing done with out a smoking hole.
 
Tom-D said:
What would you say and who would you say it to?
The Family is being guided by CFIs with ulterior motives, you say any thing to them you opening a piZZing contest.
Calling the FAA will not get any thing done with out a smoking hole.
Click to expand...
If he says something to whomever is in control of the situation, then he has fulfilled his moral obligation, IMO. I don't think there's any ethical or moral right or obligation to try to force people to act on our concerns.
 
Palmpilot said:
If he says something to whomever is in control of the situation, then he has fulfilled his moral obligation, IMO. I don't think there's any ethical or moral right or obligation to try to force people to act on our concerns.
Click to expand...

I sort of agree. Your position is how I have accepted my role in the situation I referred. I said something to the offending pilot and was ignored. I didn't take it further. I was a CFI at the time and was torn regarding taking further action. In hindsight I should have reached out to an asi at the fsdo. I don't think a private pilot would have any professional duty to goto fsdo but I think instructors do.... just my opinion.
 
brien23 said:
A&P/IA use to rent planes died, family has no idea of what to do, pilots not A&P trying to help out fixing things on the planes. Lots of people trying to help lots of advice but the end result might not be good.
Click to expand...
What exactly are they fixing? There are a lot of things that can be done without being a licensed mechanic... If they're doing 100hr signoffs etc, I'd be calling someone. Once overseers are notified you are pretty much out of the loop and morally clear...IMHO...
 
FlySince9 said:
What exactly are they fixing? There are a lot of things that can be done without being a licensed mechanic... If they're doing 100hr signoffs etc, I'd be calling someone. Once overseers are notified you are pretty much out of the loop and morally clear...IMHO...
Click to expand...
The overseers are who we are worried about.
 
FlySince9 said:
What exactly are they fixing? There are a lot of things that can be done without being a licensed mechanic... If they're doing 100hr signoffs etc, I'd be calling someone. Once overseers are notified you are pretty much out of the loop and morally clear...IMHO...
Click to expand...
If you are not the owner and the plane is a rental you can't fix anything. Owner operator is the owner and not for hire to work on your own aircraft.
 
brien23 said:
If you are not the owner and the plane is a rental you can't fix anything. Owner operator is the owner and not for hire to work on your own aircraft.
Click to expand...
It appeared to me that the guy who died was the owner making the family now the owners whom I thought were the ones doing the work...
 
Tough one.

If your intention is to make them aware they are heading into an issue then I'd say talk to them with another operator to help them understand what all it takes. Many/most family members don't know the effort and knowledge that their loved one put into their businesses and hobbies.

If this doesn't seem fruitful, you have to decide between laissez-faire and enforcement. Obviously you don't want to be renting an airplane outside of the rules, but at some point they are going to get caught.

Getting caught doesn't mean a 'smoking hole' for certain. It will happen when those CFI's sign off a CPL check ride and the examiner asks the student to review the logs to determine airworthiness. Oops! Ride canceled, FSDO probably contacted.
 
FlySince9 said:
It appeared to me that the guy who died was the owner making the family now the owners whom I thought were the ones doing the work...
Click to expand...
No, it's the pilots renting the planes non A&P the family has no idea of who is doing what, only that the planes are still renting.
 
FlySince9 said:
It appeared to me that the guy who died was the owner making the family now the owners whom I thought were the ones doing the work...
Click to expand...
Agreed.
However, if nobody in the family is a pilot, they cannot simply start fixing things by themselves, even under the maintenance clause. One needs to have a PPL on top of being an owner/operator by the FAR. (can't remember the exact paragraph #, somebody google it for me, please)
 
brien23 said:
If you are not the owner and the plane is a rental you can't fix anything. Owner operator is the owner and not for hire to work on your own aircraft.
Click to expand...
Are you sure?

43.3:

(g) Except for holders of a sport pilot certificate, the holder of a pilot certificate issued under part 61 may perform preventive maintenance on any aircraft owned or operated by that pilot which is not used under part 121, 129, or 135 of this chapter. The holder of a sport pilot certificate may perform preventive maintenance on an aircraft owned or operated by that pilot and issued a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category.
​
1.1:

Operate, with respect to aircraft, means use, cause to use or authorize to use aircraft, for the purpose (except as provided in §91.13 of this chapter) of air navigation including the piloting of aircraft, with or without the right of legal control (as owner, lessee, or otherwise).​
 
Palmpilot said:
Are you sure?

43.3:

(g) Except for holders of a sport pilot certificate, the holder of a pilot certificate issued under part 61 may perform preventive maintenance on any aircraft owned or operated by that pilot which is not used under part 121, 129, or 135 of this chapter. The holder of a sport pilot certificate may perform preventive maintenance on an aircraft owned or operated by that pilot and issued a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category.
​
1.1:

Operate, with respect to aircraft, means use, cause to use or authorize to use aircraft, for the purpose (except as provided in §91.13 of this chapter) of air navigation including the piloting of aircraft, with or without the right of legal control (as owner, lessee, or otherwise).​
Click to expand...
In this case the ownership is a LLC company, and the CFI who's renting the aircraft is neither the owner or the operator. The students rent the aircraft from the LLC and pay the CFI.
The CFI in this case is not an A&P, Not the owner or the operator, yet he repairs the aircraft to keep using them.
last week I laid a word of advice on the CFI, that he was risking his tickets and the owner's house.

he blew me off.
 
BigBadLou said:
Agreed.
However, if nobody in the family is a pilot, they cannot simply start fixing things by themselves, even under the maintenance clause. One needs to have a PPL on top of being an owner/operator by the FAR. (can't remember the exact paragraph #, somebody google it for me, please)
Click to expand...
The Family consists of a old widow, and a son who is not an aviation type.
The Widow is the deep pocket, with land equity.
 
Sounds like some words with the widow are in order, and if that goes nowhere a call to FSDO.
 
Palmpilot said:
Are you sure?

43.3:

(g) Except for holders of a sport pilot certificate, the holder of a pilot certificate issued under part 61 may perform preventive maintenance on any aircraft owned or operated by that pilot which is not used under part 121, 129, or 135 of this chapter. The holder of a sport pilot certificate may perform preventive maintenance on an aircraft owned or operated by that pilot and issued a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category.
​
1.1:

Operate, with respect to aircraft, means use, cause to use or authorize to use aircraft, for the purpose (except as provided in §91.13 of this chapter) of air navigation including the piloting of aircraft, with or without the right of legal control (as owner, lessee, or otherwise).​
Click to expand...
FAR Part 43 specifies who may do what to an aircraft in the way of maintenance, repair or alteration. It requires that only properly certified mechanics work on aircraft and "okay" them for return to service. However, it does allow preventive maintenance to be performed by a certificated pilot, holding at least a Private certificate, on an aircraft owned or operated by that pilot, provided the aircraft is not used in commercial service.

First the Pilots non A&P do not own the aircraft some don't even fly the twin just want to help as required above. Their just trying to help. Second the aircraft are rental aircraft in commercial service. Third the owners have the logbooks and none of the helpful pilots made any entry as required by 43.9 as to the work done their name and cert. number and return to service.
 
Last edited:
I agree about someone having a talk with the widow and son. If she has deep pockets she could lose a lot. I'm guessing they're simply ignorant of the legalities and liability here.
 
Everskyward said:
I agree about someone having a talk with the widow and son. If she has deep pockets she could lose a lot. I'm guessing they're simply ignorant of the legalities and liability here.
Click to expand...

Agreed. Once done, you're mind is at ease knowing you took action in case something happens (hopefully nothing does.) Good luck.
 
brien23 said:
FAR Part 43 specifies who may do what to an aircraft in the way of maintenance, repair or alteration. It requires that only properly certified mechanics work on aircraft and "okay" them for return to service. However, it does allow preventive maintenance to be performed by a certificated pilot, holding at least a Private certificate, on an aircraft owned or operated by that pilot, provided the aircraft is not used in commercial service.

First the Pilots non A&P do not own the aircraft some don't even fly the twin just want to help as required above. Their just trying to help. Second the aircraft are rental aircraft in commercial service. Third the owners have the logbooks and none of the helpful pilots made any entry as required by 43.9 as to the work done their name and cert. number and return to service.
Click to expand...
I was only discussing your statement about preventive maintenance in post #15, not the specifics of this situation.
 
Everskyward said:
I agree about someone having a talk with the widow and son. If she has deep pockets she could lose a lot. I'm guessing they're simply ignorant of the legalities and liability here.
Click to expand...

Agreed. If she has any self-preservation awareness, she'll seek out an uninvolved professional to look over the operation and the aircraft logs, and find out what the CFI is up to.
 
Tom-D said:
When the smoking hole happens, don't get burned.

It's a sorry situation when a owner dies knowing he is going, and doesn't tie up the loose ends.
Click to expand...

Sounds like you know more about the situation than what the OP posted.
 
For the most part, it's not the things you DO that you regret, it's the things you don't do or say which you later regret.

Besides if you don't say something, you can't say you called it after the fact
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top