Ab initio

hindsight2020

hindsight2020

Final Approach
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hindsight2020
Complete plug for LAT on the part of fly8MA, but it made me think of this forum and the constant thrash about career changers and the idiosyncrasies of swinging the finances of a sector of the industry not particularly known for solvent livelihoods, and the perennial regard for flight instruction as disposable low-remuneration skillset.


I don't think he needed to be so apologetic about his transition back to flight instruction. I think he did a comprehensive enough job on his "I quit the airlines" video. I've certainly known plenty of people who have quit the airlines for other sectors of aviation. This isn't anything new.

I took his "pilot shortage solved" title as tongue in cheek, as ab initio would be a requirement if there were an actual shortage. The fact the US industry has no need to resort to ab initio is the very proof that there isn't a shortage. The fact he also has to go be employed by foreign firms is also indicative of the opposite of what he claims. I think the irony escaped him a little.
 
It's just a QOL and pay, and benefits, and retirement thing if ya ask me.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk
 
His idea is fine if you don't actually care about the airmanship and judgment skills of the pilot you produce.

Those things require a variety of experience to develop, and a thoroughly stovepiped training pipeline produces a pilot who has only seen the things you have shown him and only knows how to make the decisions you have shown him to make.

Ab initio may be great on paper, but in a career field where the depth of your experience bucket and the variety of situations in which that experience was obtained can be the key between life and death (ref Al Haynes and Chesley Sullenberger), that skillset is not obtained through a narrow training scope from hour #1.
 
hindsight2020 said:
a sector of the industry not particularly known for solvent livelihoods
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As an aside, I don't believe this is an accurate statement.

Although the anecdotal data (there goes that phrase again...) gathering easily uncovers sob story after sob story of the financial hardships incurred via whatever industry upheaval event you wish to orient around, there is tremendous selection bias in that information. The folks with hardships are more than eager to complain about it...the ones who are comfortable aren't likely to be either discussing it on the internet, nor due to their ages as more senior pilots are they likely to be wearing flight suits in ANG/reserve units talking about it.

In my experience there is a large silent majority who is, and has been, quite comfortable during their careers even when these upheaval events have occurred. Their lifestyles may have been disrupted and required some adaptation to the changes, but "insolvent" isn't remotely an accurate descriptor. Those folks are just not likely to be out singing about their situations in locations where people are likely to hear it.
 
Well yeah it works. It’s the same “business model” the military uses. ;)

You can bet they’re getting heavily subsidized with German govt funds especially since some of their students are in the German air forces. It also makes sense for the Lufthansa, because this program costs far less to operate here than there. Same reason why some foreign military flight students train here vs their home country.

Speaking of leaving the regionals. Just had 2 friends jump ship to come back to helos. Apparently they enjoyed the job, just time away from home put a strain on the family.
 
Velocity173 said:
Well yeah it works. It’s the same “business model” the military uses. ;)
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While it may be a similar "training model", it isn't remotely the same "business model".

For the military folks, the airmanship-building exposure to varied experiences is achieved in the years of operational flying that follow the initial undergraduate training experience.

At the airlines, the initial training quickly transitions into being multi-pilot checklist monkeys spending hour-upon-hour in the flight levels babysitting the autopilot.

Not discounting the types of aviation experience that can be obtained while airlining, but if you ask just about any airline pilot what their most airmanship-formative years of their aviation career were, they're likely to list jobs prior to 121 flying that required single-pilot decisionmaking in difficult weather or operational environments.

Let's remember that the entire purpose of having pilots sitting up at the front of the jet isn't to execute the preplanned flight and babysit the FMS as it transits through the national airspace system. Pilots are there to safely recover the ship (and its passengers, if applicable) when things do not go according to plan, at whatever magnitude that occurs. The deeper the airmanship experience of the pilot/crew when such instances occur, the more likely that the pilots will be able to safely execute their purpose.
 
Hacker said:
His idea is fine if you don't actually care about the airmanship and judgment skills of the pilot you produce.

Those things require a variety of experience to develop, and a thoroughly stovepiped training pipeline produces a pilot who has only seen the things you have shown him and only knows how to make the decisions you have shown him to make.

Ab initio may be great on paper, but in a career field where the depth of your experience bucket and the variety of situations in which that experience was obtained can be the key between life and death (ref Al Haynes and Chesley Sullenberger), that skillset is not obtained through a narrow training scope from hour #1.
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Hacker said:
...Let's remember that the entire purpose of having pilots sitting up at the front of the jet isn't to execute the preplanned flight and babysit the FMS as it transits through the national airspace system. Pilots are there to safely recover the ship (and its passengers, if applicable) when things do not go according to plan, at whatever magnitude that occurs. The deeper the airmanship experience of the pilot/crew when such instances occur, the more likely that the pilots will be able to safely execute their purpose.
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Bingo.
And the corollary to your Haynes/Sullenberger example, that supports your argument, is AF 447.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
The guy is an idiot.

His why I quit the Airlines video highlights some issues in the industry but frankly it highlights his entitlement attitude and lack of experience more so.
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I like his videos and I think he has good content, but I’m not sure some of these videos he has recently came out with are going to help his channel much.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
Agreed. He kinda went off the rails.
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When I read the comments a while back on his “Why I quit the airlines” people really went off on him.

Who knows, maybe he can make a good run at instructing though.
 
CC268 said:
When I read the comments a while back on his “Why I quit the airlines” people really went off on him.

Who knows, maybe he can make a good run at instructing though.
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Well a lot of it was because some of the things he claimed were not true. Issues that were true are common knowledge and easily known to a prospective applicant.
 
I sense desperation in his behavior. Likely due to dwindling finances, health coverage, and possibly a lack of respect (or such perception). Coupled with a jump ship now before admitting failure, fear.
Many will use, exaggerate, or invent, other reasons to protect themselves emotionally, financially, etc.
No dog in the fight, and nothing against him...but out of all the online tuber's, I probably watch his channel the least, meaning almost never.

I may be way off, but either way, I'm glad he is finding something that seems a good fit for him, and can help him in whatever way it does.

Plus those Cirri have chutes ;)
 
Hacker said:
As an aside, I don't believe this is an accurate statement.

Although the anecdotal data (there goes that phrase again...) gathering easily uncovers sob story after sob story of the financial hardships incurred via whatever industry upheaval event you wish to orient around, there is tremendous selection bias in that information. The folks with hardships are more than eager to complain about it...the ones who are comfortable aren't likely to be either discussing it on the internet, nor due to their ages as more senior pilots are they likely to be wearing flight suits in ANG/reserve units talking about it.

In my experience there is a large silent majority who is, and has been, quite comfortable during their careers even when these upheaval events have occurred. Their lifestyles may have been disrupted and required some adaptation to the changes, but "insolvent" isn't remotely an accurate descriptor. Those folks are just not likely to be out singing about their situations in locations where people are likely to hear it.
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Maybe we're talking about different things. My comment regarding job insolvency dealt specifically with civilian flight instruction and median outcomes, not individual outliers. I was not referring at all to airline jobs.

There aren't a statistically significant amount of Rod Machados making an upper class living on civilian flight instruction. So forgive me if I dismiss the "silent majority" theory that oft gets used to minimize the plight of the "complainers" in life. The BLS simply does not break out median compensation for civilian flight instructors. I happen to think it doesn't take a professional pollster to illustrate that the flight instruction compensation landscape critiqued by the video is in fact grounded in truth. The LAT jobs of the world are in fact the minority. If you think that's not the case, by all means hook a brother up and point to these regional airline captain equivalent compensation civilian flight instructor jobs that litter the landscape. I'm sincerely interested in them as a retirement transition option.
 
Imagine if we had to pay $10/gal for avgas. General aviation will disappear, and airlines will have no choice but to train their own pilots. That is why Lufthansa has this program. They are not in Arizona for the weather, it is for the cheap fuel too. If they were to do this training in Germany, I don't think it would work financially.
 
sarangan said:
Imagine if we had to pay $10/gal for avgas. General aviation will disappear, and airlines will have no choice but to train their own pilots. That is why Lufthansa has this program. They are not in Arizona for the weather, it is for the cheap fuel too. If they were to do this training in Germany, I don't think it would work financially.
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By that logic, the best thing that could happen for US airline aspirants is $10/gas. Maybe you're onto something.....
 
CC268 said:
When I read the comments a while back on his “Why I quit the airlines” people really went off on him.

Who knows, maybe he can make a good run at instructing though.
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I love instructing but the thought of doing that full time for the rest of my life doesn’t appeal to me
 
jordane93 said:
I love instructing but the thought of doing that full time for the rest of my life doesn’t appeal to me
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I’m not an instructor *yet* (hopefully I will be in the next few months!) so I guess I can’t say. I’m pretty excited though. But yea...I understand what your saying.
 
Skyrys62 said:
I sense desperation in his behavior. Likely due to dwindling finances, health coverage, and possibly a lack of respect (or such perception). Coupled with a jump ship now before admitting failure, fear.
Many will use, exaggerate, or invent, other reasons to protect themselves emotionally, financially, etc.
No dog in the fight, and nothing against him...but out of all the online tuber's, I probably watch his channel the least, meaning almost never.

I may be way off, but either way, I'm glad he is finding something that seems a good fit for him, and can help him in whatever way it does.

Plus those Cirri have chutes ;)
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Yea this is spot on. Someone told me he is in his 40s? Not sure if that is true or BS. I have to admit he looks way younger than that. But yea...I think you hit the nail on the head. I think he has been trying to conjure up a mZeroA type channel/ground school. Not sure how successful it’s been. I imagine that is a brutal space to try and compete in.
 
jordane93 said:
I love instructing but the thought of doing that full time for the rest of my life doesn’t appeal to me
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An interesting observation, because as a full time flight instructor, I literally feel the same about your job. Please don't take that as a jab.
 
jordane93 said:
I love instructing but the thought of doing that full time for the rest of my life doesn’t appeal to me
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I'm the opposite: if there weren't such airline-career-impacting risks to instructing "on the side" I'd do a lot more of it.

Personally, being an instructor was one of the most postive airmanship-formative experiences (as well as professionally satisfying) of my aviation career, even among the afterburnin', G-pullin', bomb-droppin' combat flying.
 
CC268 said:
Yea this is spot on. Someone told me he is in his 40s? Not sure if that is true or BS. I have to admit he looks way younger than that. But yea...I think you hit the nail on the head. I think he has been trying to conjure up a mZeroA type channel/ground school. Not sure how successful it’s been. I imagine that is a brutal space to try and compete in.
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I happen to feel for the guy. I think he needs to go the route that steve-o or whatever his name is, and dabble in part 91/135, and do the video stuff on the side. Maybe some day turn corporate stuff with schedules palatable to a guy in his late 30s/early 40s (and he doesn't have a family, not that that's the only reason a person needs to have to justify preferring a home steading life...).
 
I gotta imagine the military guys find the civilian flying boring as can be. Which I can totally understand. I imagine the airlines are much more appealing to the civilian. But what do I know
 
hindsight2020 said:
I happen to feel for the guy. I think he needs to go the route that steve-o or whatever his name is, and dabble in part 91/135, and do the video stuff on the side. Maybe some day turn corporate stuff with schedules palatable to a guy in his late 30s/early 40s (and he doesn't have a family, not that that's the only reason a person needs to have to justify preferring a home steading life...).
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Yea I agree. I’m sure he will find his way...
 
CC268 said:
I gotta imagine the military guys find the civilian flying boring as can be.
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What a lot of people don't get, though, is that boring is good.

Boring means that everything is safe and I get to go home to mom 'n' the kids, cash that paycheck, and enjoy the quality of life the job provides access to.
 
Hacker said:
What a lot of people don't get, though, is that boring is good.

Boring means that everything is safe and I get to go home to mom 'n' the kids, cash that paycheck, and enjoy the quality of life the job provides access to.
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Maybe the best combo is fly the airliner for the day job and fly the Extra 300 or Cub on the days off
 
Yep, boring can be good...I think John (flym8a) will get bored eventually, but enjoy the stability of this new job.

Like airplane performance, everything in life is a trade off....one freedom is usually sacrificed for another. Just have to find the ones that make you happiest for the stage in life/situation you're in.

And if that's not working too well, there's always beer.
 
Hacker said:
I'm the opposite: if there weren't such airline-career-impacting risks to instructing "on the side" I'd do a lot more of it.

Personally, being an instructor was one of the most postive airmanship-formative experiences (as well as professionally satisfying) of my aviation career, even among the afterburnin', G-pullin', bomb-droppin' combat flying.
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Indeed. And to tie it up to the rest of the thread, the civilian sector is not the only place where flight instruction is stigmatized as inferior, undesirable or beneath some people. I didn't have the timing in life to fly a fighter or log "combat" time, my bomber assignment was cast off to the catacombs of the political posturing mission we call the nuclear enterprise, and the rest is history.

Point being, subsequently I've made quite a solvent and rewarding lifestyle and career as an AETC IP. I'm proud of what I do, and I genuinely cherish what it has afforded me in terms of balancing my desire to serve, while taking care of my family. And that's before my wife got sick mind you.

Somehow though, my lot in life is considered stunted, terminal, generally undesirable, unappealing and unenviable, because "combat cred". Some have gone so far and suggested my job isn't worthy of a military rank and line of duty designation. Meaning I should be doing it in civilian status, for you guessed it, less pay, less retirement and health care benefits. And let's not even get into survivorship benefits, in a job where I've buried two direct coworkers in 18 months.

So the professional disrespect of the flight education cadre is found in advanced flying circles as well, not just primary civilian flight instruction. None of that changes my sincere enjoyment of the craft, which again I find more rewarding to me than flying transport category airplanes. I am disheartened and underwhelmed by how little regard there is in the civilian sector for what I do. Three rules of life though, as we military types know full well. It is what it is. Hopefully in a few years I'll go greet folks at walmart part time and wrap myself in a warm DD214 blanket while the golden goose pops two eggs a month on my bank account. Hata's gonna hate.
 
With respect to the guy in the video, we all have to remember different strokes for different folks. We see that even in this here thread.

What is considered good work for some isn't that for others. As mentioned, the things Jon mentioned in his "why I quit the airlines" video were factors that are well-known in the industry and should not have been a surprise for anyone who has done even the slightest research on it as a career. That being said, those factors just weren't worth it for him, so he headed elsewhere. IMO, more power to him. I have several military flying buds who tried out the airlines and decided it wasn't for them, either.

If he is able to find a happy place doing what works for him, then good. The industry needs a good cadre of CFIs who aren't just time building, waiting for 1500 hours, and scrapping to put food on the table. We need knowledgeable and experienced instructors who want to pass on the art and craft of our profession on to the next generation of both hobbyists and professionals.
 
hindsight2020 said:
An interesting observation, because as a full time flight instructor, I literally feel the same about your job. Please don't take that as a jab.
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Yeah but there’s a big difference in being military IP in high performance aircraft to civilian CFI in a Cirrus.

While I enjoyed the IP job, I was so set on not instructing on the civ side, that I didn’t even bother with the military competency CFI thing. No way I’d be content teaching traffic patterns in an R22 for far less pay. Even in my current job I’ve been offered a full time IP slot on more than one occasion with a bump in pay. No thanks.
 
hindsight2020 said:
So the professional disrespect of the flight education cadre is found in advanced flying circles as well, not just primary civilian flight instruction. None of that changes my sincere enjoyment of the craft, which again I find more rewarding to me than flying transport category airplanes.
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Don't forget there are also instructor-only (e.g. sim and classroom) jobs in the airline and corporate world that have good compensation and quality of life, too, which would love to have your experience.
 
hindsight2020 said:
An interesting observation, because as a full time flight instructor, I literally feel the same about your job. Please don't take that as a jab.
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I should have said instructing in GA aircraft. I could see myself doing check airman at a 121 or 135. I’m sure you have a blast instructing in the jets you fly. Something about six students a day doing 10 touch and go’s in the middle of summer in a 172 doesn’t give me the warm fuzzies.
 
Hacker said:
I'm the opposite: if there weren't such airline-career-impacting risks to instructing "on the side" I'd do a lot more of it.

Personally, being an instructor was one of the most postive airmanship-formative experiences (as well as professionally satisfying) of my aviation career, even among the afterburnin', G-pullin', bomb-droppin' combat flying.
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Flight instructing is very rewarding. Seeing students go from zero knowledge to PPL is a great thing. I couldn’t do it for the rest of my life because it’s tough to make living for the most part. I’m getting ready to put in for check airman at my airline and I think I’d have a good time doing it.
 
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