A question for the FAR Gods

Tom-D

Tom-D

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Tom-D
Annual inspections.
I didn't want to hijack Jeff K's thread
I start an annual on the first of the month. I do the engine group of required items of FAR 43-D.
This aircraft's annual does not expire until the end of the month.
Can I release this aircraft return to flight status?
then after the flight do more items of the required items of FAR 43-D. then allow the aircraft to go fly again.
wash rinse, repeat until all the items of the required items are done, then sign off the annual on the first of the next month.

Is this legal? why not, show references.
 
Tom-D said:
Annual inspections.
I didn't want to hijack Jeff K's thread
I start an annual on the first of the month. I do the engine group of required items of FAR 43-D.
This aircraft's annual does not expire until the end of the month.
Can I release this aircraft return to flight status?
then after the flight do more items of the required items of FAR 43-D. then allow the aircraft to go fly again.
wash rinse, repeat until all the items of the required items are done, then sign off the annual on the first of the next month.

Is this legal? why not, show references.
Click to expand...
Legal, if you make a maintenance record entry each wash/rinse cycle. At the end of the last rinse you sign off the Annual. 43.5 (a)
 
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If it is airworthy until the end of the month anyway and you're not doing anything to make it un-airworthy, then why not?
 
Unless you found something that indicates it's not airworthy in the inspection so far, it's still airworthy until the annual runs out.
The start of a new inspection doesn't invalidate the previous one.
 
Legal.

But there's an element that I'm wondering about - how early is too early to start and how much time is too much time. I'm sure it's no problem to start an inspection on Nov 1 for a Nov 30 expiration, but could you start it Oct 1...or even Dec 1 of the previous year? Theoretically you could do 99% of an inspection on Dec 1 and finish it on Nov 30th, then not look at the first 99% for another year, resulting in almost 2 years between inspections and effectively becoming an inspection every 2 years. That's not what is intended.
 
flyingron said:
Unless you found something that indicates it's not airworthy in the inspection so far, it's still airworthy until the annual runs out.
The start of a new inspection doesn't invalidate the previous one.
Click to expand...
Of course you'd repair those as you found them.
 
What I was taught was that the moment you began tasks towards an annual inspection, the plane was grounded until complete.

Here’s how I understand it...

Let’s say examining and packing wheel bearings is part of the annual inspection checklist. My thought was, you examine and inspect them on Oct 5. You start your annual inspection Oct 25.

1) If you logged the wheel bearing maintenance as maintenance, you are of course free to continue flying the plane up until the annual expires. But...

2) That maintenance was not part of the annual, so must be done again as part of the annual inspection, once begun. But...

3) If you log the Oct 5 wheel bearing as part of the annual inspection, the plane is officially “in annual” and cannot be flown until completed.

The above was emphasized in the 16 hour course I took so I could do my own Annual Condition Inspections on my E-LSA Sky Arrow. If it’s incorrect, I would love to be set straight - with sources, of course.
 
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43.11, the logbook entry for date and TAT presents a problem for doing it a little at a time.

Also, there is a part pertaining to progressive inspections if you happen to be on a progressive inspection program, which we are not talking about.
 
Tom-D said:
Annual inspections.
I didn't want to hijack Jeff K's thread
I start an annual on the first of the month. I do the engine group of required items of FAR 43-D.
This aircraft's annual does not expire until the end of the month.
Can I release this aircraft return to flight status?
then after the flight do more items of the required items of FAR 43-D. then allow the aircraft to go fly again.
wash rinse, repeat until all the items of the required items are done, then sign off the annual on the first of the next month.

Is this legal? why not, show references.
Click to expand...

Tom-D:
Yes. Is there a FAR or other guidance that prevents it? None that I’m aware of.

Part 91.409(a)(1) states in part “in the preceding 12 months” so that keeps the aircraft legal to operate till the end of the month. And since you’re documenting the work that covers the Part 43 requirements.

What you are basically doing is a mini “progressive inspection” over a month’s time. The only thing that may present a problem would be an oddball AD that requires compliance at “the next annual or 100hr”, but that would be simple to comply with during the engine group inspection.

If you needed more back up on the documentation side, you could squeeze out a little from 43.11(a)(7): “…that part of the inspection program accomplished,…” ; and from 43.15(a)(1): “… or portion(s) thereof under inspection…” Part 135 9 pax or less ops use 43.11(a)(7) to conduct a rolling inspection when needed, but it also mentions 91.

Also, since an annual is a calendar month inspection versus a calendar date or time inspection, FAA guidance defines its due date as the last day of the month regardless of the actual day completed. I know of nothing that would prevent the same grace period applying to the annual itself.

You could do the same with a 100 hour inspection within reason, except you would have to reduce the next 100 hour due time by the amount flown during the inspection.

I would also say that if someone were to try to expand this method of fly/annual further than the due month, they might run into an issues with local blue badges who would probably tell you to request a Progressive Inspection authorization.

Interesting scenario but I don’t know what advantage it would give to a private 91 aircraft.
 
Bell206 said:
Interesting scenario but I don’t know what advantage it would give to a private 91 aircraft.
Click to expand...
Some owners use their aircraft to commute, this would aid in their use of the aircraft.

Here is a carry on question.

You are very familiar with the use and maintenance of a certain aircraft, you see every thing that is done with it.
The owner is an A&P, they just did a 100 hour on the aircraft, while you watched, would you sign off the annual ?
 
Tom-D said:
The owner is an A&P, they just did a 100 hour on the aircraft, while you watched, would you sign off the annual ?
Click to expand...

The answer to that is clear. An IA is not allowed to supervise an annual inspection, they must actually perform the inspection. The FAA must want to make it clear to aspiring IAs that this is the case, it is a question in the test bank for the written test.

Along a similar thought process would be an A&P IA who owns their own airplane and does all the maintenance on said airplane. Over the course of a year that airplane likely has been apart and maintained and inspected more closely and repeatedly than many others. Would the IA be legal signing all that work and inspection done over the course of the year as an annual?
 
Tom-D said:
Some owners use their aircraft to commute, this would aid in their use of the aircraft.

Here is a carry on question.

You are very familiar with the use and maintenance of a certain aircraft, you see every thing that is done with it.
The owner is an A&P, they just did a 100 hour on the aircraft, while you watched, would you sign off the annual ?
Click to expand...

Nope, because I am required to personally do the inspection.
 
Bell206 said:
Tom-D:
Yes. Is there a FAR or other guidance that prevents it? None that I’m aware of.

Part 91.409(a)(1) states in part “in the preceding 12 months” so that keeps the aircraft legal to operate till the end of the month. And since you’re documenting the work that covers the Part 43 requirements.

What you are basically doing is a mini “progressive inspection” over a month’s time. The only thing that may present a problem would be an oddball AD that requires compliance at “the next annual or 100hr”, but that would be simple to comply with during the engine group inspection.

If you needed more back up on the documentation side, you could squeeze out a little from 43.11(a)(7): “…that part of the inspection program accomplished,…” ; and from 43.15(a)(1): “… or portion(s) thereof under inspection…” Part 135 9 pax or less ops use 43.11(a)(7) to conduct a rolling inspection when needed, but it also mentions 91.

Also, since an annual is a calendar month inspection versus a calendar date or time inspection, FAA guidance defines its due date as the last day of the month regardless of the actual day completed. I know of nothing that would prevent the same grace period applying to the annual itself.

You could do the same with a 100 hour inspection within reason, except you would have to reduce the next 100 hour due time by the amount flown during the inspection.

I would also say that if someone were to try to expand this method of fly/annual further than the due month, they might run into an issues with local blue badges who would probably tell you to request a Progressive Inspection authorization.

Interesting scenario but I don’t know what advantage it would give to a private 91 aircraft.
Click to expand...

But is it truly part of a progressive inspection or an annual? Packing the wheel bearings is a maintenance procedure. Packing them at annual is not a requirement under the FAR's but inspection of them is. I've inspected many that were fit to go at least another year before they needed attention.

So, you are starting what is going to be an "annual" but only cleaning and packing the bearings. That is maintenance and the plane is still "in annual" till the end of the month. Simply sign it off as maintenance and your tail is covered. At the annual state the wheel bearings were cleaned, inspected and repacked X hours ago and you're in the clear.

Based on hours flown our shop either simply inspected or cleaned and repacked them. AFAIK, there is no requirement to repack them at every annual.

If you can show me something in Part 43 that says otherwise I will acquiesces.
 
Norman said:
Packing them at annual is not a requirement under the FAR's but inspection of them is.
Click to expand...

Would not that depend on the Annual Inspection checklist?

The one for my Sky Arrow (admittedly under Light Sport rules) says "Disassemble wheels, clean and lubricate the ball bearings".

Bear in mind it actually has roller bearings. I'll assume a mistranslation from the Italian.
 
Tom-D said:
Some owners use their aircraft to commute, this would aid in their use of the aircraft.

Here is a carry on question.

You are very familiar with the use and maintenance of a certain aircraft, you see every thing that is done with it.
The owner is an A&P, they just did a 100 hour on the aircraft, while you watched, would you sign off the annual ?
Click to expand...

I've seen any number of cases where an A&P does the 100 hour inspection and the IA comes behind and does the annual, which is more a note of compliance, ADs, checking maintenance documentation. The IA doesn't have to physically conduct the IA part so long as an A&P has documented the work done and/or the 100 hour inspection.
 
Tom-D said:
Some owners use their aircraft to commute, this would aid in their use of the aircraft.

Here is a carry on question.

You are very familiar with the use and maintenance of a certain aircraft, you see every thing that is done with it.
The owner is an A&P, they just did a 100 hour on the aircraft, while you watched, would you sign off the annual ?
Click to expand...


Tom-D:
Didn’t have many owners who commuted on the small side, but had a few who did on the big side complete with a driver(s) up at the pointy end.

On the follow up:
No. But if I followed him around with my own flashlight, mirror, and checklist… all day long.
 
N3368K said:
I've seen any number of cases where an A&P does the 100 hour inspection and the IA comes behind and does the annual, which is more a note of compliance, ADs, checking maintenance documentation. The IA doesn't have to physically conduct the IA part so long as an A&P has documented the work done and/or the 100 hour inspection.
Click to expand...


N3368K:
The IA must physically perform the annual inspection or be in violation of several FARs.
 
Tom-D said:
Some owners use their aircraft to commute, this would aid in their use of the aircraft.

Here is a carry on question.

You are very familiar with the use and maintenance of a certain aircraft, you see every thing that is done with it.
The owner is an A&P, they just did a 100 hour on the aircraft, while you watched, would you sign off the annual ?
Click to expand...
How much is he paying me?
 
That's where the wording tom used has the gotcha. He said, you saw everything that was done. If the IA inspected everything then you can sign it off. But, the IAs eyeballs must see everything that is to be inspected, and touched everything that needs to be touched then you can sign it off. Example, the IA does not need to do the compression check, but he needs to watch it being done and look at the gauges for each cyl checked.

Bob
 
How do you get around ?

Appendix D to Part 43—Scope and Detail of Items (as Applicable to the Particular Aircraft) To Be Included in Annual and 100-Hour Inspections
(a) Each person performing an annual or 100-hour inspection shall,
 
Tom-D said:
How do you get around ?

Appendix D to Part 43—Scope and Detail of Items (as Applicable to the Particular Aircraft) To Be Included in Annual and 100-Hour Inspections
(a) Each person performing an annual or 100-hour inspection shall,
Click to expand...

Tom,
You like to twist everything to fit your agenda. Others here are neither ignorant nor stupid. Your constant badgering gets old quickly. Stop trying t start discussion for the sake of argument. You come across as one who merely wants to start a discussion only to further your sometimes uninformed opinions.

When you can quote FAR's chapter and verse without your opinions attached I will lend you some credence. Till then, Sayonara.
 
Tom-D said:
How do you get around ?

Appendix D to Part 43—Scope and Detail of Items (as Applicable to the Particular Aircraft) To Be Included in Annual and 100-Hour Inspections
(a) Each person performing an annual or 100-hour inspection shall,
Click to expand...
Tom, you missed what you need the most...
Scroll to the bottom of part 43 Appendix D...
Need assistance?
 
Tom-D said:
How do you get around ?

Appendix D to Part 43—Scope and Detail of Items (as Applicable to the Particular Aircraft) To Be Included in Annual and 100-Hour Inspections
(a) Each person performing an annual or 100-hour inspection shall,
Click to expand...

Tom-D:
If your question is pertaining to this portion of the paragraph (a): Each person performing an annual or 100-hour inspection shall, before that inspection, remove or open all necessary inspection plates, access doors, fairing, and cowling. He shall thoroughly clean the aircraft and aircraft engine.

Then it’s easy. Those tasks “such as inspection plate removals and aircraft cleaning are preliminary and incidental to the actual inspection of the required items.” Paragraph (a) plainly states “before that inspection.”

So how do you comply with your owner assisted annuals?
 
Tom-D said:
Annual inspections.
I didn't want to hijack Jeff K's thread
I start an annual on the first of the month. I do the engine group of required items of FAR 43-D.
This aircraft's annual does not expire until the end of the month.
Can I release this aircraft return to flight status?
then after the flight do more items of the required items of FAR 43-D. then allow the aircraft to go fly again.
wash rinse, repeat until all the items of the required items are done, then sign off the annual on the first of the next month.

Is this legal? why not, show references.
Click to expand...

I do not think it is legal. Because:
1) An annual inspection is a complete inspection process. It is not a progressive inspection, which is dealt with separately.
2) An annual inspection is performed on the "aircraft" as a whole. Either the complete aircraft has been inspected or it hasn't.
 
Bell206 said:
Tom-D:
If your question is pertaining to this portion of the paragraph (a): Each person performing an annual or 100-hour inspection shall, before that inspection, remove or open all necessary inspection plates, access doors, fairing, and cowling. He shall thoroughly clean the aircraft and aircraft engine.

Then it’s easy. Those tasks “such as inspection plate removals and aircraft cleaning are preliminary and incidental to the actual inspection of the required items.” Paragraph (a) plainly states “before that inspection.”

So how do you comply with your owner assisted annuals?
Click to expand...

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_or...015/amalong - (2015) legal interpretation.pdf
 
If the previous annual had time remaining, I see nothing wrong with terminating the inspection and fixing any discrepancies that have been found, and starting the annual inspection all over again at a later time.
 
When you sign off the annual aren’t you certifying that the aircraft is airworthy on that date and at that date's tach time? If you did the engine inspection & compression test two weeks ago, and the owner has flown it 20 hours since, then how do you know it’s airworthy today?

I have no idea how the FARs view it, but it doesn’t make sense that it would be legal.
 
Tom-D said:
The FAR says "prior to the inspection, the inspector shall" meaning the inspection has not started yet.
Click to expand...


The quote in my last post came from the LOI linked by JAWS. But in accordance with the FAA food chain, that LOI takes precedence over the FAR you quote. It is a legal interpretation of the regulations and has the force of law. That is how a pilot owner or anybody can legally assist in an annual by removing panels and cleaning.

But as I’ve said before you are entitled to your own interpretation. There’s no violation in following a regulation verbatim. It's only your or your customers loss.

Now a carry on question of my own:
When you sign off your annual inspections as airworthy, which version of airworthy are you implying to, the regulatory definition or the statute definition?
 
JAWS said:
I do not think it is legal. Because:
1) An annual inspection is a complete inspection process. It is not a progressive inspection, which is dealt with separately.
2) An annual inspection is performed on the "aircraft" as a whole. Either the complete aircraft has been inspected or it hasn't.
Click to expand...
Gotta reference for that?

It requires a pile of FAA paper to set up and gain approval to change inspection programs,
Taking a month to do an annual, and allowing the aircraft to fly between portions of the inspection does not become a Progressive inspection.

and after the whole aircraft is inspected, it will get the proper sign off and return to service entry will be made.
I can find no FAR that says the aircraft is unairworthy during the inspection cycle. or that the inspection can not happen in segments.
 
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