A&P Logbook requirements for FSDO

Discussion in 'Maintenance Bay' started by Timbeck2, Feb 21, 2021.

  1. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Final Approach

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    Just wondering from the newest A&Ps here what the FSDO was looking for in your log book entries. A friend of mine who was knighted last year with his A&P cert said that the examiner wanted more tail numbers. Okay got it. I'm wondering how detailed the entry must be; for example if I changed engine mounts on a PA28. Should I include the paragraph of the maintenance manual I used, part numbers of replaced parts?
     
  2. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Touchdown! Greaser!

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    requirements for being "actively engaged"....nothing more....nothing less.
     
  3. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Final Approach

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    But the time for each repair, service or act should be there so they can determine if you have the required hours together with a sign off from the A&P that you were working with is required, right?
     
  4. Bell206

    Bell206 En-Route

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    Depends. It's usually very subjective to the mechanic and owner. Once you know and understand what is required (links below) then you can tweak your own write ups by looking at other examples. One benchmark I use is to ask the owner what he wants to see in a mx write up. But the last thing you want to do is write a "book."
    https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-i...&mc=true&node=pt14.1.43&rgn=div5#se14.1.43_19
    https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-i...mc=true&node=pt14.1.43&rgn=div5#se14.1.43_111
    For added reading:
    https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_43-9C_CHG_2.pdf
     
  5. Bell206

    Bell206 En-Route

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    Who is they? Don't quite follow your question. Got a particular reference you're trying to figure out?
     
  6. Witmo

    Witmo Pattern Altitude

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    Since when and where is it required that A&Ps log their activity. IAs need a record for renewal of their IA but an A&P?
     
  7. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Final Approach

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    To be clear, I was asking about the entries in my A&P logbook, not an aircraft's log books. I have to prove that I have the required hours and documents in order to sit for the A&P tests and certification. Just wondering how detailed they need them to be.
     
  8. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Final Approach

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    I'm not an A&P yet, but hope to be soon.
     
  9. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I'd log the maintenance "you" performed (describe the activities - use a MM reference if you like), the hours, the date, and who supervised you.

    Once you get your ticket....you can throw that book in a heaping trash pile. It's useless. No one uses a log.

    Now back to what I thought you were asking....for the IA renewal one must show that he is "actively engaged" for the last two years prior to renewal. I just list the N number, a one or two line description of the maintenance, and date. Our FSDO has a spreadsheet/form to document this.
     
  10. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Final Approach

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    The inspector at the FSDO that signs the 8610-2. The last step before taking the tests:

    "Visit your local FAA Flight Standards District Offices (FSDO). This is when you will present all your documentation proving that you are qualified to proceed with the tests. You will be asked oral question about your work history, aircraft and engine types, procedures performed ETC. Be sure that your photo IDs are up to date, name and address are correct and that all the information matches any forms the FAA may issue.

    If all of your documentation is in order the FAA will issue an 8610-2 form. You MUST have the 8610 before taking the writing or oral and practical test."
     
  11. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Final Approach

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    Now THAT part I know. ;)
     
  12. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pattern Altitude

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    Good on you for pursuing this.

    My recommendation would be to request a conference with an ASI/AW at your local FSDO and talk to him directly as this will be the person that will eventually accept your data and application to take the 3 writtens (Airframe, Powerplant and General).

    Go over what you have and what he wants to have in it, if possible get it in written form such as an email.

    From the 8900.1:

    https://fsims.faa.gov/PICDetail.aspx?docId=8900.1,Vol.5,Ch5,Sec2
     
  13. Bell206

    Bell206 En-Route

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    Okay. It's best to ask the specific FSDO ASI who will be handling your A&P application and issuing your test authorization tickets. Find out now before you start your experience log. Each ASI can have their own requirements or forms to use.
     
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  14. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Final Approach

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    Thanks to all.
     
  15. Magman

    Magman Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Suggest you log all time that an A & P would charge for.

    That includes Parts and Service info research, ordering parts and troubleshooting.

    There is no “ Book Time “ on these so it will likely take you longer than the

    experienced Tech.

    Have available any and all records of things Aviation related.

    The “ Ground Handling and Service “ segment of the Curriculum refers washing ,

    cleaning, run-up and taxi , tie-down and towing .

    Log that time also.

    Include MIL records such as DD-214 and Training Folders.

    It is not really 100 % that the A & P must stand over your shoulder and sign the log.

    Key is; “Satisfactory to the Administrator “ .

    Work Orders , pictures , Pay Stubs can also be used to document your compliancev

    with 65.77.

    Remember; you are not the judge on what is acceptable; the Inspector will

    make that determination.

    Don’t short change yourself by making your own rules.


    Have the A &P ( s ) sign the log at frequent intervals.

    Weekly or monthly or whatever works.

    Do not wait “ until you’re ready”.

    I’ve seen too many people get stiffed this way.


    Just like they are College Profs that are rumored to weigh Term Papers ,there

    are folks like that at some FSDOs.

    Title Page and an index for every section and a divider sheet to match?


    Generally Airframe Time is easier to accumulate.

    You must have 30 months experience to sit for the A & P testing.

    However; it need not be 15 months A and 15 months P to do so.

    Unofficially; 20 % or six months P time out of 30 will suffice.

    If you get the A first though; you still need another 15 months of P time.


    You will probably hear of “ Magic Letters “ etc that can do away with

    some of the time logging.

    I’ve talked to a lot of folks that worked for years to achieve “Knighthood”.

    “For want of a Log, all was lost?”

    Assure that is not your case.

    Be prepared and “ Don’t take a knife to a gunfight”!
     
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  16. schmookeeg

    schmookeeg Administrator Management Council Member

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    Doc Holliday is on point. In fact, my FSDO wouldn't make the appointment until I had emailed them my cover letter and supporting documentation for their "blessing".

    Due to a quirk in my living situation at the time, I was able to initiate the process with two separate FSDOs, and wouldn't you know it, each one had different requirements and interpretations for me.

    Far be it for me to suggest shopping FSDOs if they get onerous, but it appears that you could do exactly that if your local store isn't providing the quality of, ahem, service, you expect. :D

    ==

    For your actual question, I brought copies of every work order I had ever touched, along with my supporting docs and an approximate hours breakdown comparing my own experience with that of what is required from a mechanic training school. They were looking for ~80% coverage, but no specific depth in every area.
     
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  17. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Final Approach

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    What I have now:

    1. DD214 with 10 years jet engine mechanic experience including tear down, build up and lots of test cell/hush house both installed and uninstalled on 4 different airframes.
    2. At least one but probably two IAs that will write a letter for me.
    3. 5 years experience working with two A&Ps on various model airframes. However, I'm working for the experience so there aren't any pay stubs and it wasn't full time. I worked at least one day per week with several weeks with multiple days. Those five years were from tip to tail.
    4. The two A&Ps I work with and I have started our own maintenance company in Tucson and are willing to sign off my hours logged.

    I didn't even think of logging the parts look up/research time. Yes, it would have been easier to log and sign, log and sign but I didn't so now I'm going through the list of aircraft and what I've done on them in order to fill the log book.
     
  18. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot En-Route

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    I would ask the inspector at your FSDO that will be reviewing your paperwork. It varies a lot from office to office. I did not have a log. I presented letters from three IA’s, two A&P’s and the DOM of a repair station. Each letter documented the scope of work, airframes and power plants I gained experience on along with recommendations. The experience spanned approximately six years. The inspector didn’t blink and issued my testing authorization.

    A coworker went to the local FSDO with much more detailed documents than I had and was turned away empty handed. He drove to another FSDO and was told it was one of the most detailed and comprehensive records of experience he had seen and was issued testing authorization.

    Hopefully you find the second office first.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2021
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  19. Magman

    Magman Pre-takeoff checklist

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    It looks like you should be all set.

    FSDOs have a listing of AFSC/MOS with a job description.

    However; that can vary over time and may not match your Training Folder or

    other Records.

    Your actual duties may have varied with Command or Base policy.

    Ie If your AFSC was an Engine Mech did you do Aircraft work such as installing the

    Engine.

    Mine was reverse.

    You may appreciate the Jet Engine guys being told to work on Radial Engines.

    They hated the oil dripping things.
     
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  20. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pattern Altitude

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  21. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Final Approach

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    I installed very few jet engines. The crew chiefs usually did that work but I did install engines in three different airframes (T-38, F-4 and B-52) in tech school. My work was tear down, build up, testing and troubleshooting them. Most of that experience testing and troubleshooting. I will admit that when I first saw GA aircraft engines I didn't know a primer line from an oil return line. In the 5 years working with my two A&P friends (one of which is on this forum) I have learned so much. They are top notch mechanics and don't cut corners on anything and have taught me so much. But I think I still have a lot to learn but I know at some point, I'm just going to have to jump in the pool and get my other license to learn.
     
  22. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Final Approach

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    I do indeed. Although I've never worked on a radial, I've had plenty of JP-4/8 and 7808 run down my arm, down my tee shirt and settle in the nether regions.
     
  23. Magman

    Magman Pre-takeoff checklist

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    It would be a good idea to scope out the AC sent by Doc to avoid surprises.

    It specifically states that Tech School Time is not experience.

    However; you are not the Judge here.

    Put ALL your documentation on the table and let the Inspector make the call.

    “Don’t take a knife to a gun fight”!


    Veterans that have the A & P can pursue many options.

    Claiming “Veterans Preference” can lead to careers with DoD, FAA, NASA, ETC.

    One I know was very involved in the Shuttle and F-35 Programs.

    Also some projects that were so “ black” that he could not tell his Boss.
     
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  24. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Final Approach

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    I'm sure the 6 weeks of tech school time is a drop in the bucket to 10 years experience but yeah, I hear ya. You never know. I can only speak for the Air Force since that's what I retired from but I doubt anyone could come away with both the A and the P from the Air Force unless they cross trained and even then, the shops are pretty specialized.
     
  25. Bell206

    Bell206 En-Route

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    How military mx experience was counted toward an A&P changed a number of years ago. But we hired a few AF guys straight off the base at the ol' day job who AP tested out based solely on their AF experience/training certificates. As Doc mentioned, gather up what docs you have, practice your sales pitch, and make an appt to see your local ASI. All things considered, your list above is good and there still are ASIs out there who make judgement calls on who they issue the test certs to. If anything it's a 50/50 shot to walk out with those test certs or know exactly what you need for those test certs. My money is on walking out with test certificates.;)
     
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  26. unsafervguy

    unsafervguy Pattern Altitude

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    doc and bell covered it quite well. bottom line is its up to the asi. good communication with him is important and don't try to embellish, they are pretty good at smelling that out. It really helps if the letters you have are from an A&P IA that the inspector knows. granted I did mine over 20 years ago, but the ASI knew the A&P IA that gave me my recommendation well and the ASI's had more latitude back then, but his response was "if xxxx said your qualified, thats all I need"
     
  27. Magman

    Magman Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Someone I know worked on his aircraft for 30 + years.

    This included involvement with Annuals , PM and fabric on one.

    He also did a complete restoration on an award WACO.

    Obviously , he had a lot of time in.

    When he asked the 70+ overseeing IA to verify his time for 65.77

    it got ugly.

    Fortunately , he had pix, notes and the unverified Log.

    Also some A & P’s that were aware of his efforts.

    He is now an IA.

    If you’ve been to OSH you likely saw his last award winner.
     
  28. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot En-Route

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    Your screen must be very narrow and you like carriage returns.
     
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  29. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    It’s a poem. Don’t you recognize culture when you see it?
     
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  30. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Touchdown! Greaser!

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    so....maybe he posts from a BlackBerry? o_O
     
  31. Marshall Alexander

    Marshall Alexander Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I got my A&P in 1990. Was pretty easy then. The A&P that I worked under just wrote a letter stating my experience for the previous years. Then it was on to the written, then oral/practical.
     
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  32. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Final Approach

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    Unless my luck changes, I doubt its going to be that easy for me. Thanks for the reply.