A new level of jerk-dom amongst pilots

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Now I'm laughing.

Jay, you oughta get out there and talk to a few FBO owners. Pilots are some of the biggest deadbeats out there. Call Tom Dougherty at Wings -- he has enough stories about jerk pilots to fill a very thick book. Plenty of IOUs from them too.

Here's one I remember:

Dude flies in for a meeting. Blows out the tire on his Arrow upon landing. Needs to get home that day. Tom doesn't have tire in stock, dials around, finds one at a nearby (by air) airport, flies over there, gets the tire, installs it, guy is set to go.

Oh, but he doesn't have the checkbook -- that's with his wife. No, no credit cards, never uses them. He'll send the check (just for tire and installation, no charge for the trip to pick up the tire) as soon AS SOON as he gets home.

Tom's still waiting for that check, about 3yrs later.

And that's just ONE of many deadbeat pilot stories......he has lots more.
 
Maxmosbey said:
I've been involved with aviation since 1970. Ive been screwed over a couple of times by pilots and airplane owners. Usually the same. If you are going to be a trusting person, you need to be able to deal with it when someone takes advantage of that. For me, I trust people. Sometimes it comes back to bite me. If it does, I just move on. I just can't go through life afraid that if I do something, someone will get the best of me. It just makes you petty. Frankly, I think at this point Jay needs to just laugh it off and move on. Why loose sleep over something like this? Why get so upset that your wife feels bad that she let them have it? It is just a car. What is the big deal? Evidently it isn't a big enough deal to even go out to the airport to see if they brought the car back. So what is with all the anger?
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Oh, I'm not dwelling on it -- if I were, I'd have made time to drive out to the airport today, to make sure they had brought the car back. Quite frankly, I had forgotten all about it.

However, I am still ****ed off about this on many levels.

- I'm ****ed that I was taken advantage of by a brother in aviation.

- I'm ****ed that someone could "check us out" and decide to stay somewhere else, after six months of non-stop, 18-hour days, and tens of thousands of dollars in upgrades to this motel.

- I'm ****ed that my car may be missing, damaged, or out of gas, and that the next guy who uses it may be endangered because of something these jerks did to it.

- I'm ****ed that I was helpless in the face of *******s.

- I'm ****ed that I had to yell at my wife for being too nice.

- I'm ****ed that people like you will never understand why I'm still ****ed.

(*Edit: And NOW I'm ****ed that this stupid chat room won't let me type "****", but WILL let me type "*******"! :rolleyes2:)
 
This post (and ensuing discussion) struck a few chords with me.

1. The pilot's behavior is exactly why there are fewer and fewer courtesy cars. Shame on him. I hope he at least gassed yourcar up.

2. Many airports offer cars for free and merely *hope* for some business. What you are describing is a few notches below that on the altruism scale, and so I don't think you were "all that burned". However, I agree you were burned on this deal. We've loaned our our F150 truck to stranded souls plenty of times, had them gobble 1/4 tank of gas (which is what, like 3 miles in that beast), and putter off without a second thought or first purchase -- it happens. You put out these "above and beyond" niceties as a way to attract more of the better sort, you don't do it to squeeze every penny from each person who uses your amenities. To kvetch about the one guy who "got the better end" of that deal is churlish.

If you really did call to demand immediate return of the car while the guy was at dinner, you ruined the high-road state of the offer, and revealed you were only interested in his $54, not his being a pilot passing through and making his life better. I understand you're running a business, but is the car an expression of hospitality, or a mousetrap for pilot wallets?

3. The mob mentality when plotting the revenge of this brigand pilot really is in poor taste.

==

I hate when people take from me without asking, and overstep my boundaries on things like this, but at the end of the day, if you've done right by pilots and stayed in business doing so, be happy with that. It's more than most out there are doing in our small circle.

For the record, I think your service is great, and I wish there was more like it -- and I would not have abused your car privelege were I in his shoes. But man, this is hardly a new echelon in pilot jerkdom.

$0.02

- Mike
 
flyersfan31 said:
Now I'm laughing.

Jay, you oughta get out there and talk to a few FBO owners. Pilots are some of the biggest deadbeats out there. Call Tom Dougherty at Wings -- he has enough stories about jerk pilots to fill a very thick book. Plenty of IOUs from them too.

Here's one I remember:

Dude flies in for a meeting. Blows out the tire on his Arrow upon landing. Needs to get home that day. Tom doesn't have tire in stock, dials around, finds one at a nearby (by air) airport, flies over there, gets the tire, installs it, guy is set to go.

Oh, but he doesn't have the checkbook -- that's with his wife. No, no credit cards, never uses them. He'll send the check (just for tire and installation, no charge for the trip to pick up the tire) as soon AS SOON as he gets home.

Tom's still waiting for that check, about 3yrs later.

And that's just ONE of many deadbeat pilot stories......he has lots more.
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YUP YUP I remember that story and I was there when he was changing the tire. Guy actually flew in for a poker run. What a jerk!
 
No one's mentioned the potential liability Jay faces if these guys had a drunk driving accident (only one example of many). Sure he has insurance, but will it pay out? At least if they were paying customers he'd have more information on them - perhaps have seen ID or gotten a credit card number. And yes, even as paying customers they could have done the same thing - but the cost of that insurance is undoubtedly part of what the owner considers when he sets a rate for the room. And even if insurance did pay, he might not have enough coverage under the circumstances and the deficit comes out of his property and his life savings, his rates just went up, and he didn't get anything for his trouble. It's the owner's decision what kind of risk he's willing to take and at what price - not the pilots' decision.

I don't think it was a "misunderstanding" either - otherwise, why did they go to the trouble to call and say they had the car but they weren't staying at the hotel? What would have been the point?
 
2. Many airports offer cars for free and merely *hope* for some business. What you are describing is a few notches below that on the altruism scale, and so I don't think you were "all that burned". However, I agree you were burned on this deal. We've loaned our our F150 truck to stranded souls plenty of times, had them gobble 1/4 tank of gas (which is what, like 3 miles in that beast), and putter off without a second thought or first purchase -- it happens. You put out these "above and beyond" niceties as a way to attract more of the better sort, you don't do it to squeeze every penny from each person who uses your amenities. To kvetch about the one guy who "got the better end" of that deal is churlish.

If you really did call to demand immediate return of the car while the guy was at dinner, you ruined the high-road state of the offer, and revealed you were only interested in his $54, not his being a pilot passing through and making his life better. I understand you're running a business, but is the car an expression of hospitality, or a mousetrap for pilot wallets?
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WTF? Are you for real?

The car is owned by my hotel. It is there for our GUESTS to use, not just to help a pilot "passing through". If you use it, you had damned well better be staying at my motel, or I will have you arrested for theft.

A "mousetrap for pilot wallets"? Wow. I don't know what reality you occupy, but it's in a different dimension from this world.
 
Jay Honeck said:
Oh, I'm not dwelling on it -- if I were, I'd have made time to drive out to the airport today, to make sure they had brought the car back. Quite frankly, I had forgotten all about it.

However, I am still ****ed off about this on many levels.

- I'm ****ed that I was taken advantage of by a brother in aviation.

- I'm ****ed that someone could "check us out" and decide to stay somewhere else, after six months of non-stop, 18-hour days, and tens of thousands of dollars in upgrades to this motel.

- I'm ****ed that my car may be missing, damaged, or out of gas, and that the next guy who uses it may be endangered because of something these jerks did to it.

- I'm ****ed that I was helpless in the face of *******s.

- I'm ****ed that I had to yell at my wife for being too nice.

- I'm ****ed that people like you will never understand why I'm still ****ed.

(*Edit: And NOW I'm ****ed that this stupid chat room won't let me type "****", but WILL let me type "*******"! :rolleyes2:)
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Class act there Jay.
 
Jay Honeck said:
The island airport is unstaffed. There is no real FBO -- just a nice terminal building, and self-serve gas pumps.
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I understand - didn't know the airport.

Jay Honeck said:
"Gimmick"? Offering a car for my guests to use, gratis, is now a "gimmick"?

I'll be kind, and attribute this to a poor choice of words, and the fact that you have no knowledge of the history of our aviation themed motel(s), and the collaborative effort (of many people on this group) that it took to get them started.
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On the contrary - I was a regular on the newsgroups when you were posting/blogging/whatever when starting Alexis park inn.

I recall a story where you went off the deep end because some pilot at a restaurant wanted to say a prayer. Or maybe I am mistaken.

Jay Honeck said:
Yep, my wife was too damned nice. Trust me, it will not happen again.

How sad.
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Yes, I agree - it is sad that it has come to that.

For what it is worth, I live in NY and fly to Burlington VT when I can get to a summer home. I leave a car at the airport there and encourage people I hardly know to fly in and use it - even if they are flying in on Jet Blue. Thankfully I have not had an issue yet.

Listen, I appreciate that these folks seem not have done the right thing. I was just surprised at the characterization of it as the lowest low you have seen.

That's all.
 
Maxmosbey said:
I've been involved with aviation since 1970. Ive been screwed over a couple of times by pilots and airplane owners. Usually the same. If you are going to be a trusting person, you need to be able to deal with it when someone takes advantage of that. For me, I trust people. Sometimes it comes back to bite me. If it does, I just move on. I just can't go through life afraid that if I do something, someone will get the best of me. It just makes you petty. Frankly, I think at this point Jay needs to just laugh it off and move on. Why loose sleep over something like this? Why get so upset that his wife feels bad that she let them have it? It is just a car. What is the big deal? Evidently it isn't a big enough deal to even go out to the airport to see if they brought the car back. So what is with all the anger?
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Yep - I have been a residential landlord for more years than I would like to remember and I am a pretty trusting and flexible person. Sometimes I got the shaft. Big time. (like, add a couple zeros to the right of the $54 kind of "jerkdom")

$54 (is that right) or loss of use of a car for a night is not something that would get under my skin or cause me to lose sleep when juxtaposed with real problems I have experienced.
 
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schmookeeg said:
This post (and ensuing discussion) struck a few chords with me.

1. The pilot's behavior is exactly why there are fewer and fewer courtesy cars. Shame on him. I hope he at least gassed yourcar up.
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More likely it is for insurance/litigation/liability issues.
 
Jay Honeck said:
You may be right. A good friend of mine sent me this today, and it rings true:

"From time to time, I run into new/young pilots that never knew those days, nor the level of service that we were once afforded simply for spending our money with the providing business. Times have changed.... I run into more new/young pilots that are *******s than are instead, truly interested in aviation... they are mostly interested in themselves."
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As a young pilot, that is apparently grouped into being an "*******" I'd like to point out its not just young pilots, but all pilots for that matter, for all pilots are human, thus all pilots are subject to the human nature of being an *******.
 
Jay Honeck said:
WTF? Are you for real?

The car is owned by my hotel. It is there for our GUESTS to use, not just to help a pilot "passing through". If you use it, you had damned well better be staying at my motel, or I will have you arrested for theft.

A "mousetrap for pilot wallets"? Wow. I don't know what reality you occupy, but it's in a different dimension from this world.
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You're absolutely right. I misunderstood your Airnav advertisement showing courtesy transportation, and made a faulty association.

You know, Airnav, the site for pilots. Pilots looking for a place to stay and means to get around when they travel to unfamiliar airports.

I'm sorry that your staff let your hotel amenities be used by a guest who chose not to stay at your hotel. By all means spray the miscreant's luggage all over texas and have the desk girl flogged. Send the guy a bill. He is clearly the antichrist and is running a clever racket, flying all over the world and using free cars for dinner. mwa ha ha and such.

10 miles placed on a hotel car by a traveller. Quelle Horreur.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
As a young pilot, that is apparently grouped into being an "*******" I'd like to point out its not just young pilots, but all pilots for that matter, for all pilots are human, thus all pilots are subject to the human nature of being an *******.
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You are right. I don't know where this world exists that all pilots are trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty,brave, clean, and reverent, and where all the FBOs treat them like royalty. It never has.
 
Jay, if you stil have the guy's name, send the IRS a 1096 for the use of the car. The IRS always gets their man.
 
Maxmosbey said:
You are right. I don't know where this world exists that all pilots are trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty,brave, clean, and reverent, and where all the FBOs treat them like royalty. It never has.
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Yep, my exeperience often times is that pilots get the old "he's got a plane - he's rich, let's milk him" treatment.
 
Jay Honeck said:
Sad to think that aviation could be dragged down to the same level as the rest of humanity, but I suppose it's true... :cryin:
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Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
 
Jay... you are entitled to be miffed... and vent... and be mad. But in the big scheme of things, is this worth getting tweaked over?

What did you really lose?

And keep in mind just what you have: a motel. Its not the Alexis. Its not the same demographics or clientele as up in Iowa City. Its a sleepy fishing town. No matter how much time, effort, blood sweat and tears you put into this island location, it will remain a motel.

One guy didn't give you the benefit of the doubt, at the beginning of the slow season. I dont know what to tell you. Its not personal. Its business. He didn't set out to screw you. How many other clients lost out because he took your unlocked car to dinner? Pick your battles.. go hammer some nails.. be the better man.

About two years ago I had a motorcycle accident that was the direct result of another drivers negligence. I walked away with road rash. The bike had a couple thousand in damage. He had no insurance, and was one of those guys who changed addresses and jobs every 6 mos. He got a ****load of tickets but I never saw a dime from him, and never sued over it. I nursed my wounds, fixed my bike and life went on. It wasn't worth the effort to get blood from that turnip, and I had my health, so I let it go.
 
timrj said:
These kinds of things happen all the time and that is how policies get refined.
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Unfortunately, the "policy" usually gets "refined" to be more like "Sorry, too many jerks, we're not keeping the free car at the airport any more." :frown2:

Things like this should NOT happen all the time.

And I can't believe the beating Jay's taking in this thread. Take the high road, yes, but I would be ROYALLY pi$$ed if I were in his shoes too.
 
Jim Logajan said:
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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Bwahahahah!!!! And that's the funniest thing I've seen in these forums!!!
:D:thumbsup:
 
I backed Jay earlier in the thread. Well, now, Jay you lost me when you lashed out at new/young pilots. You do have a problem with mean-spirited generalizing, in general.

I'm a relatively (5yr) new pilot, though not a young pilot, and I most certainly am not an ******* pilot (although I am the Stealth Bomber:ihih:). It's not new pilots, or young pilots, it is a-hole pilots. They come in all ages and levels of experience. Having learned to fly in the age of the A/D ranges makes you old. It does not free you from *******dom.

Take your head out of your tookus and think about this. Don't lash out with nonsensical generalizations. These two guys were jerks. Did you check their logbooks? Drivers licenses?? Or did they fly in a Cirrus, so you just assumed they were new/young *******s??

They were jerks (although they may have another side of the story, which consists largely of a misunderstanding, but I don't know), you took the high road, you learned from experience, you can move on. Don't use this one episode to tar and feather a group of pilots who might, just might, send their business your way, in spite of your apparent antipathy towards them.
 
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Jay Honeck said:
Our courtesy van at the Alexis Park Inn in Iowa City is wrapped precisely as you describe. It's GREAT advertising.

I didn't do that here, yet, because we intend to change the name of the motel once we're done converting it to the aviation theme.

That plan may change.
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How about something less expensive and a little less permenate untill you change the name. These door magnets are not the best, could be pulled off, last only about a year before they start showing some wear but are only $10.

http://www.vistaprint.com/custom-ca...gnets&GP=10/22/2010+7:57:06+AM&GPS=1342416292
 
flyingcheesehead said:
And I can't believe the beating Jay's taking in this thread. Take the high road, yes, but I would be ROYALLY pi$$ed if I were in his shoes too.
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Jay really had my sympathy at the start of the thread, but then he started lashing out at anyone and everyone. He lost my support around page four.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
As a young pilot, that is apparently grouped into being an "*******" I'd like to point out its not just young pilots, but all pilots for that matter, for all pilots are human, thus all pilots are subject to the human nature of being an *******.
Click to expand...

flyersfan31 said:
I backed Jay earlier in the thread. Well, now, Jay you lost me when you lashed out at new/young pilots. You do have a problem with mean-spirited generalizing, in general.
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Maxmosbey said:
Jay really had my sympathy at the start of the thread, but then he started lashing out at anyone and everyone. He lost my support around page four.
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Yeah I'm there with you guys.
 
I don't like being lumped into a certain group either.

I can easily see my wife applying pressure to move to the beach, expecially at those low off season rates.

If they are like Myrtle Beach this time of year then they don't even cover the cost just help to offset it a little.

I've eaten the first night and switched hotels when they weren't up to the better halfs standards.

We don't know the whole story so let's play nice with each other. :fcross:
 
This far along and you haven't bothered to check on the car which is "just 3 minutes away". You know this doesn't even begin to reconcile with the level of wrath Jay.

You may just find the car with a full tank of gas, a twenty dollar bill under the mat, and a thank you note.
 
NetNinja said:
This far along and you haven't bothered to check on the car which is "just 3 minutes away". You know this doesn't even begin to reconcile with the level of wrath Jay.

You may just find the car with a full tank of gas, a twenty dollar bill under the mat, and a thank you note.
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I hope he did.

I bet he didn't.
 
NetNinja said:
This far along and you haven't bothered to check on the car which is "just 3 minutes away". You know this doesn't even begin to reconcile with the level of wrath Jay.

You may just find the car with a full tank of gas, a twenty dollar bill under the mat, and a thank you note.
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idle thought: That's an interesting way to get revenge on someone who
might be ticked off...
 
And, by the way folks, read carefully what you are responding to; several have ascribed harsh things to Jay which he did not say.
 
Look we could talk about this forever I think we can agree on the following:

1) Jay was treated rudly by these pilots in refusing to return the car. Perhaps there was a misunderstanding
( I don't think so)but Jay cleared that up when he asked them to retun the car.

2) Jay took the high road

3) Jay learned a lesson

4) Pilots are like anyone else, jerks and good people, cheap and generous, safe and dangerous.

5) We should try to get to Texas and stay at Jay's hotel.

There really isn't much else to be said IMHO.
 
My wife and I stayed at Jay's place out on the island (and we'll be back someday). They really do go out of their way to help out the pilot community. But, he has a business to run and being taken advantage of by the very people he's trying to support sucks. Jay, I hope you've had the chance to blow off some steam, and can get back to enjoying your place.
 
I know of a lot of young pilots - not sure I know a single one that is an ******* and won't bend over backwards for you.
 
Having read the thread and read numerous posts of Jay's over the years (here and the old r.a.p groups) I think the crux of his displeasure is he views pilots as family (or our tribe as Gordon Baxter once attributed it) and so he feels betrayed - not by some stranger, but by a family member. That's the source of the wrath. Not $54. Not rudeness in general. Betrayal! By a family member!

And Jay, clearly I'm reaching inside your head a bit, so if I'm all wet, say so.

Clearly they were a bit rude about the whole thing and took advantage of a courtesy offered by a business. Have any of you ever gone to a local store, talked over a purchase decision with someone knowledgeable and then gone home and bought the item of the web for less? Similar deal. Sat in Panera using the free wireless and didn't buy anything? Not exactly the same, but still...

John
 
flyersfan31 said:
I backed Jay earlier in the thread. Well, now, Jay you lost me when you lashed out at new/young pilots. You do have a problem with mean-spirited generalizing, in general.

I'm a relatively (5yr) new pilot, though not a young pilot, and I most certainly am not an ******* pilot (although I am the Stealth Bomber:ihih:). It's not new pilots, or young pilots, it is a-hole pilots. They come in all ages and levels of experience. Having learned to fly in the age of the A/D ranges makes you old. It does not free you from *******dom.

Take your head out of your tookus and think about this. Don't lash out with nonsensical generalizations. These two guys were jerks. Did you check their logbooks? Drivers licenses?? Or did they fly in a Cirrus, so you just assumed they were new/young *******s??

They were jerks (although they may have another side of the story, which consists largely of a misunderstanding, but I don't know), you took the high road, you learned from experience, you can move on. Don't use this one episode to tar and feather a group of pilots who might, just might, send their business your way, in spite of your apparent antipathy towards them.
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Apparently you have a problem with reading comprehension? That was a QUOTE about "young pilots nowadays" from another pilot -- not my words.

I'm hoping it's wrong.
 
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