A hypothetical flight to Canada

[SkyHog]

So as I'm getting older, I'm finding I'm more interested in "experiences" rather than accomplishments....I'm not sure if that's a sign of maturity or a sign or mortality, but either way, a thought has come to mind - but let me start with a few prerequisite facts (that can be challenged, but I think I'm right about these):

* I hold a Private Pilot Certificate, issued by the United States of America
* I hold BasicMed in lieu of a traditional medical certificate, and it will be valid at the time of the flight
* The United States does not limit a pilots ability to fly internationally on BasicMed for Private Pilots
* Canada does not recognize US BasicMed as a valid medical, so a US Private Pilot flying on BasicMed cannot fly in Canada
* Canada has a Recreational Pilot Permit - Aeroplane, which limits pilots to flying only in Canada, and requires a Category 4 Medical
* A Category 4 Medical is very, very similar to BasicMed in that it requires a Physician to sign that there are no major medical issues after an examination

So - with those pre-reqs in place....if I were to travel to Canada, obtain my Canadian Recreational Pilot Permit, and a Category 4 Medical, what stops me from flying from the United States as a US Private Pilot right up to the US/Canada border, and then flying in Canada as a Recreational Pilot. Then, upon return, flying as a Recreational Pilot right up to the Canada/US border, then flying in America as a Private Pilot?

Did I find the cheat code?

 

[WDD]

I'm sure there will be someone along to point out how that can't work, but fantastic creative approach to working the regulations.

Curiosity up, I had to dig into this a bit. I think you'll have to 1) have a Visa, not just a passport, 2) you'd have to have a Canadian CFI review your log book to make sure your hours can apply, 3) you'll still have to do the written and then the practical test with a Canadian DPE.

You'll be restricted to VFR only, but that would still be fun.


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Now, I wonder........ could you get your Canadian Recreational license, pass the Canadian Class 3 medical, and then upgrade through the Canadian system to get a full Canadian PPL? You'd bypass the requirement to get a US Class 3 medical, but you'd have to get a Canadian class 3. But that get's around the rule that US and Canadian medicals are not interchangeable for the license requirements. You would use your US flight hours to meet the Canadian PPL requirements, have to take the written and practical Canadian test.

 

[WhichWays_Up]

I was wrong........ Edited.

If you hold a Canadian RPP, you can fly an American-registered (N-numbered) aircraft while inside Canadian airspace, provided:

• • The aircraft meets the RPP limits (single-engine, 4 seats or less, day VFR only).
  • The plane has proper airworthiness and registration documents.
  • You comply with Canadian Aviation Regulations (CARs) regarding pilot privileges

Now if y'all could get the FAA to accept owner maintained aircraft, that would be a step forward too. Can't legally fly those in US airspace right now.

 

[SkyHog]

I was wrong........ Edited.

If you hold a Canadian RPP, you can fly an American-registered (N-numbered) aircraft while inside Canadian airspace, provided:

• • The aircraft meets the RPP limits (single-engine, 4 seats or less, day VFR only).
  • The plane has proper airworthiness and registration documents.
  • You comply with Canadian Aviation Regulations (CARs) regarding pilot privileges

Now if y'all could get the FAA to accept owner maintained aircraft, that would be a step forward too. Can't legally fly those in US airspace right now.

The hard part here is without the Canadian Recreational Pilot Cert and the Cat 4 medical, they won't recognize BasicMed and PPL, so I couldn't comply with the CARs. And the United States does not recognize the Category 4 medical as a valid medical for US PPL permissions. HOWEVER - if I fly as an American pilot with BasicMed to the border, and a Canadian pilot with Cat 4 Medical from the border...

 

[SkyHog]

I'm sure there will be someone along to point out how that can't work, but fantastic creative approach to working the regulations.

Curiosity up, I had to dig into this a bit. I think you'll have to 1) have a Visa, not just a passport, 2) you'll still have to do a mandatory 25 hour flight training, and 3) pass the written test.

Minimum Flight Time: Transport Canada strictly requires a minimum of 25 total flight hours under CAR 421.14. This includes at least 15 hours of dual instruction (with cross-country and specialized training) and a minimum of 5 solo flight hours.​

You must still pass the Transport Canada written examination (60% minimum) and a flight test, alongside holding a valid Category 4 Medical Certificate (which can be completed via a Civil Aviation Medical Declaration). [1, 2]​

But what a fun way to spend a summer month - long vacation in Canada, fly with a Canadian CFI ( a "CCFI" LOL), eat a lot of poutine, etc.

You'll be restricted to VFR only, but that would still be fun.

I wonder if I can use the hundreds of dual hours I have in the logbook from an American CFI to cover the Transport Canada 15 total flight hours under CAR 421.14, and the hundreds of hours of solo time I have in the United States as solo flight hours and just take the written and exam...gotta read a new set of regulations I guess.

 

[oskrypuch]

....

Did I find the cheat code?

Even if you didn't, hats off for all that thinking!

* Orest

 

[WDD]

I wonder if I can use the hundreds of dual hours I have in the logbook from an American CFI to cover the Transport Canada 15 total flight hours under CAR 421.14, and the hundreds of hours of solo time I have in the United States as solo flight hours and just take the written and exam...gotta read a new set of regulations I guess.

I think you're correct - I just edited my post. You'd probably need a Canadian CFI to review the log books and sign you off for the written and practical, but still use your US flight hours.

Another twist - could you pass the Canadian Class 3? If so, get the Canadian PPL. IF Canada denies or revokes its Class 3 for whatever reason, it won't effect your US Basic Med.

 

[SkyHog]

I think you're correct - I just edited my post. You'd probably need a Canadian CFI to review the log books and sign you off for the written and practical, but still use your US flight hours.

Another twist - could you pass the Canadian Class 3? If so, get the Canadian PPL. IF Canada denies or revokes its Class 3 for whatever reason, it won't effect your US Basic Med.

Now there's a real potential cheat code....maintain BasicMed and a Canadian Class 3 simultaneously....if Canada denies, no harm, no foul.

 

[Tusayan]

A similar approach is taken by UK resident pilots flying cross countries to the EU in N-registered aircraft. In that case it’s about using a UK pilots licence, restricted IR (R) and medical declaration (PMD) to fly N-register IFR in Class G within the UK, then transitioning to an FAA pilot certificate/instrument rating and FAA 3rd class medical in the EU, where they are non-resident and can fly on FAA papers alone in any letter airspace. This avoids the necessity for any UK medical (the UK PMD is a paperwork exercise only) and also avoids the need for an EASA 2nd class medical exam or burdensome EASA IR. Meanwhile flying a N-registered aircraft allows for easier maintenance. This kind of border crossing regulatory game has plenty of precedence, and it can be even more complex.

 

[Brad Z]

You’d need to land at one of those airports right in the border. Here’s why:

14 CFR 61.113(i)(2)(ii)
The flight, including each portion of the flight, is not carried out—
(ii) Outside the United States unless authorized by the country in which the flight is conducted; or

Since Canada does not authorize BasicMed, you’d have to discontinue the flight before you entered Canadian airspace. I guess you could do the same with a seaplane if you found an entry point on a body of water straddling the border.

 

[WDD]

Why land? “I discontinued the US flight at the border and started the Canadian flight instantly after.” Stopped and started while in the air, but at no time was not flying under somebody’s license.

 

[SkyHog]

You’d need to land at one of those airports right in the border. Here’s why:

14 CFR 61.113(i)(2)(ii)
The flight, including each portion of the flight, is not carried out—
(ii) Outside the United States unless authorized by the country in which the flight is conducted; or

Since Canada does not authorize BasicMed, you’d have to discontinue the flight before you entered Canadian airspace. I guess you could do the same with a seaplane if you found an entry point on a body of water straddling the border.

But - did I enter Canadian Airspace under PPL/BasicMed, or did I simply begin a new flight right at the border under Recreational Pilot/Cat 4 Medical?

 

[WDD]

But - did I enter Canadian Airspace under PPL/BasicMed, or did I simply begin a new flight right at the border under Recreational Pilot/Cat 4 Medical?

You began a new flight with your Canadian Rec Pilot/Cat 4 medical.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Oooh, a regulations hypothetical! We haven't had a new one of those in a while.

I wonder if I can use the hundreds of dual hours I have in the logbook from an American CFI to cover the Transport Canada 15 total flight hours under CAR 421.14, and the hundreds of hours of solo time I have in the United States as solo flight hours and just take the written and exam...gotta read a new set of regulations I guess.

I know nothing about the Canadian regulations, so this is meaningless *unless* either theirs mirror ours or both mirror ICAO so they might say the same thing. But, if it was the other way around:

14 CFR 61.1 defines "Flight Training" as "that training, other than ground training, received from an authorized instructor in flight in an aircraft."

Further, the same reg defines "Authorized Instructor" in relevant part as "A person who holds a flight instructor certificate issued under part 61 of this chapter and is in compliance with § 61.197, when conducting ground training or flight training in accordance with the privileges and limitations of his or her flight instructor certificate". So, someone who has an FAA CFI.

If the Canadian regs mirror these, then you would have to do the dual with a Canadian CFI (CCFI? ).

You’d need to land at one of those airports right in the border. Here’s why:

14 CFR 61.113(i)(2)(ii)
The flight, including each portion of the flight, is not carried out—
(ii) Outside the United States unless authorized by the country in which the flight is conducted; or

Since Canada does not authorize BasicMed, you’d have to discontinue the flight before you entered Canadian airspace. I guess you could do the same with a seaplane if you found an entry point on a body of water straddling the border.

I was guessing that this might be the case. It's kind of like how the FAA doesn't require the Restricted Radiotelephone Operator's Permit and neither does Transport Canada, but if you cross the border you still have to have it.

I didn't see an official definition of "Flight" in either 61.1 or 1.1, but I expect the FAA would interpret it as something that starts with a takeoff and ends with a landing. You could always write to the Chief Counsel's office and ask for an opinion - Maybe even use the scenario of flying with a fully qualified (ie, with medical and fully legal to operate the flight from the US into Canada on their own) Private (or higher) Pilot on board who takes over PIC duties as you cross the border, which seems like they'd see as less "wrong" than your scenario.

The idea of going for a Canadian Class 3 instead of an American one is interesting too. I wonder if there are any AMEs near the border who are certified by both authorities.

 

[M20K]

It's kind of like how the FAA doesn't require the Restricted Radiotelephone Operator's Permit

The FAA never has, nor will they ever, require a Restricted Radiotelephone Operator Permit.

You might be thinking of the **FCC** Restricted Radiotelephone Operator Permit. Years ago the FCC said it was not required within the US **IF** talking to US based radio stations. But if you travel abroad **OR** talk to a non US radio station, it is still required. That, I believe, would fall under International Treaties. To change that, you'd have to get everyone together to agree to the change. And I doubt anyone wants to do that.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

The FAA never has, nor will they ever, require a Restricted Radiotelephone Operator Permit.

You might be thinking of the **FCC** Restricted Radiotelephone Operator Permit. Years ago the FCC said it was not required within the US **IF** talking to US based radio stations. But if you travel abroad **OR** talk to a non US radio station, it is still required. That, I believe, would fall under International Treaties. To change that, you'd have to get everyone together to agree to the change. And I doubt anyone wants to do that.

FAA, FCC, FUU.

 

[steingar]

Jesus, too much trouble. I'd just land short, rent a car and drive it. Took a long motorcycle trip to Canada a couple years ago. I love Canadians!